Torque Graphics Comparisons...
by K. Silver · in Torque Game Engine · 10/06/2005 (3:08 pm) · 27 replies
I have been working with the newly developing Realm Crafter engine and have been discussing Torque with someone there who has had some negative opinions concerning the Torque graphics. So, I was interested to see what folks here might have to say about the graphics.
How do the graphics stand up to other engines? And, is there something about the Torque engine I should know that would affect the graphics my modellers create? I was a little at a loss to the concern, but on the other hand, it is important to know, beforehand, any limitations of the engine. Otherwise, I could see why someone would walk away with distaste for a product if they felt they had been misled.
Some honest, open-minded responses would be greatly appreciated. Now, I realize there are going to be some people that have some immediate gut-responses to my post. I don't need that, nor does my team. We're looking at purchasing the lot of Torque commercial software as we are already behind on our project. So, we're looking for some constructive discussion before we purchase the indie versions... After which, if the product seems to hold up to the hype, we can proceed to the commercial versions.
Again. any help and discussion here would be greatly appreciated.
~Silver Mane
How do the graphics stand up to other engines? And, is there something about the Torque engine I should know that would affect the graphics my modellers create? I was a little at a loss to the concern, but on the other hand, it is important to know, beforehand, any limitations of the engine. Otherwise, I could see why someone would walk away with distaste for a product if they felt they had been misled.
Some honest, open-minded responses would be greatly appreciated. Now, I realize there are going to be some people that have some immediate gut-responses to my post. I don't need that, nor does my team. We're looking at purchasing the lot of Torque commercial software as we are already behind on our project. So, we're looking for some constructive discussion before we purchase the indie versions... After which, if the product seems to hold up to the hype, we can proceed to the commercial versions.
Again. any help and discussion here would be greatly appreciated.
~Silver Mane
About the author
#2
1. Isn't Realm Crafter based on the Blitz3D engine? If so, Torque can so everything that Blitz3D can do graphics wise as far as I know. I've used Blitz3D for a good 3 years now and I've found it comparable. I DO remember hearing something about lighting limitations with interiors but I don't know much about that. But that particular complaint I did hear from a Blitz3D user about Torque. With TSE , however, I wouldn't imagine that being a problem.
2. How are you using Realm Crafter? Are you a Beta Tester? The whole site is dead, even the forums have been locked, they keep moving back the release date...seems available only to a choice few. When do the rest of us get a chance to try the engine?
3. Have you downloaded the TGE demo? The environmental effects, the realtime shadows, the footprints, the skybox, sun, cloud layers, etc. the physics engine, the in game editor, etc. are all things that I would consider big benefits of the engine right out of the box. I haven't tried or seen Realm Crafter, so I don't know how much of this Realm Crafter provides.
4. Is your team open to trying TSE (Torque Shader Engine) ?
5. The person with the negative opinions, were they reacting to the graphics themselves, or the art pipeline specifically? I am both a scripter and an artist, and I must say that the Torque art pipeline has a much greater learning curve than most other indie engines. Usually, it takes minutes to learn how to export a character into an engine. With Torque it also takes minutes... but several hundred of them. That's just my experience. Even simple shapes with collisions take a little bit of patience to get into the engine. Then there's the whole issue of interiors... most engines use BSPs and Torque is no exception. Blitz users get spoiled by being able to use programs like Milkshape and Max to create large interiors. In Torque you have to make BSPs which forces you to use Cartography Shop or a comparable program. I don't really mind but it was something else that I have had to learn and it has slowed me down some. But this is what most engines require so it's not as much a "Torque" thing I suppose as a general law in most engines now until BSPs are no longer used/needed.
OK, well, I'm interested in hearing your perspective ..... especially on number two.
10/06/2005 (3:35 pm)
Wow. I have several questions for you.1. Isn't Realm Crafter based on the Blitz3D engine? If so, Torque can so everything that Blitz3D can do graphics wise as far as I know. I've used Blitz3D for a good 3 years now and I've found it comparable. I DO remember hearing something about lighting limitations with interiors but I don't know much about that. But that particular complaint I did hear from a Blitz3D user about Torque. With TSE , however, I wouldn't imagine that being a problem.
2. How are you using Realm Crafter? Are you a Beta Tester? The whole site is dead, even the forums have been locked, they keep moving back the release date...seems available only to a choice few. When do the rest of us get a chance to try the engine?
3. Have you downloaded the TGE demo? The environmental effects, the realtime shadows, the footprints, the skybox, sun, cloud layers, etc. the physics engine, the in game editor, etc. are all things that I would consider big benefits of the engine right out of the box. I haven't tried or seen Realm Crafter, so I don't know how much of this Realm Crafter provides.
4. Is your team open to trying TSE (Torque Shader Engine) ?
5. The person with the negative opinions, were they reacting to the graphics themselves, or the art pipeline specifically? I am both a scripter and an artist, and I must say that the Torque art pipeline has a much greater learning curve than most other indie engines. Usually, it takes minutes to learn how to export a character into an engine. With Torque it also takes minutes... but several hundred of them. That's just my experience. Even simple shapes with collisions take a little bit of patience to get into the engine. Then there's the whole issue of interiors... most engines use BSPs and Torque is no exception. Blitz users get spoiled by being able to use programs like Milkshape and Max to create large interiors. In Torque you have to make BSPs which forces you to use Cartography Shop or a comparable program. I don't really mind but it was something else that I have had to learn and it has slowed me down some. But this is what most engines require so it's not as much a "Torque" thing I suppose as a general law in most engines now until BSPs are no longer used/needed.
OK, well, I'm interested in hearing your perspective ..... especially on number two.
#3
You might want to mention what style of game your doing and what 3d modeling software your using for better advice. From the screenshots I saw of Realm Crafter it looks the same quality as TGE, but has better Art creation tools. The one art tool I do like in TGE is the level/terrain editor.
Having all of the source code was what won me over. Any professional quality game is going to require some tweaking/adding of features to the game engine. The code is well organized.
I should warn you TSE is not yet finished. IMO, the big new features for TSE are supporting shaders, and support for massive terrains. Working with shaders will require more work by the artists, but this will be true of any engine with shaders. The biggest weakness I see with TSE is the physics engine. It is not bad, but it isn't to level of games such as Half Life 2.
If I was working with a large team I would start with TGE now and later port it to TSE.
10/06/2005 (4:17 pm)
K Silver,You might want to mention what style of game your doing and what 3d modeling software your using for better advice. From the screenshots I saw of Realm Crafter it looks the same quality as TGE, but has better Art creation tools. The one art tool I do like in TGE is the level/terrain editor.
Having all of the source code was what won me over. Any professional quality game is going to require some tweaking/adding of features to the game engine. The code is well organized.
I should warn you TSE is not yet finished. IMO, the big new features for TSE are supporting shaders, and support for massive terrains. Working with shaders will require more work by the artists, but this will be true of any engine with shaders. The biggest weakness I see with TSE is the physics engine. It is not bad, but it isn't to level of games such as Half Life 2.
If I was working with a large team I would start with TGE now and later port it to TSE.
#4
The main project on the table right now is a MMORPG, two years in the design phase. I own the rights to numerous novels, a number of comic book series, and even a couple movies, so I have a tremendous amount of mythos to draw upon.
So far, Milkshape and poser have been the modeller's choice of programs.
Our team is not large, but we have the fortune to work with outside sources for some aspects of the game.
I love to script as much as I love to write.... Scripting = writing with mathematics and logic.
Now, to Nmuta...
1. Yes, RC is B3D based.
2. The forums were moved and only beta testers and Gold Release members are capable of posting, etc. There are a great number of issues still being resolved with the engine. I took a break from it early on and returned a few weeks ago. I have not been able to even bring the engine up due to an update fault... That fault has only affected a few users. They are working on the update issue. You can purchase gold from their 'store.'
3. After studying numerous engines out there including Realm Forge, Nevrax, etc, I finally decided that Torque's offerings were the best... regardless of the price - high or low. So, I downloaded two of the demos and found my video card to not be compatible with the demos. After an hour trying to get this card's drivers updated, I threw in the towel... I am on my way out to pick up a new card as soon as I am finished with this post. I was up all night reading more about the Torque engine and decided to add this post to get some user input. There were alot of aspects to the RC engine I truly liked and needed, but after studying specific areas, I think Torque can handle my needs... I'll find out more after working with the demo.
4. I have already included TSE in the prospective budget.
5. It seemed that the issue the gentleman had was in, not only the pipeline, but also in the 'end result.' To be quite honest with you, from what I have seen... it seems to me the end result really depends on the modeller's abilities. Other than that, both engines seemed to have similar end results, artistically speaking.
In general, yes, I agree that learning how the engine works is important.... The task of scripting will fall upon my head which is how I prefer it. From what I can see of the scripting language, it seems very friendly and even very 'readable.'
Brian...
I agree. Having access to the source code is a tremendous asset and allows for wide sweeping or very important basic changes in a game. As a coder, I love that aspect. Scripting is fun, coding can be if one does not have to write the engine from scratch. Incidentally, how is the source code documentation? Is it well documented or sporadic?
It is my intentions to work with TGE first.... then with everything else Torque offers.
By the way, I was reading about the limitations of the number of players on a Torque produced MMORPG... 100? How is it that the engine is limiting the number of players and not the server hardware and connection speed? I am weak in this area and it is important that I learn where the limitations are beforehand. I am always open to learning more... and more... and yet more!
On a side note.... Any thoughts on the 2D engine? I have a variety of projects that need to be released that do not require a 3D engine of the magnitude of TGE 3D.
~Silver Mane
10/06/2005 (5:05 pm)
First, to answer a quick series of questions:The main project on the table right now is a MMORPG, two years in the design phase. I own the rights to numerous novels, a number of comic book series, and even a couple movies, so I have a tremendous amount of mythos to draw upon.
So far, Milkshape and poser have been the modeller's choice of programs.
Our team is not large, but we have the fortune to work with outside sources for some aspects of the game.
I love to script as much as I love to write.... Scripting = writing with mathematics and logic.
Now, to Nmuta...
1. Yes, RC is B3D based.
2. The forums were moved and only beta testers and Gold Release members are capable of posting, etc. There are a great number of issues still being resolved with the engine. I took a break from it early on and returned a few weeks ago. I have not been able to even bring the engine up due to an update fault... That fault has only affected a few users. They are working on the update issue. You can purchase gold from their 'store.'
3. After studying numerous engines out there including Realm Forge, Nevrax, etc, I finally decided that Torque's offerings were the best... regardless of the price - high or low. So, I downloaded two of the demos and found my video card to not be compatible with the demos. After an hour trying to get this card's drivers updated, I threw in the towel... I am on my way out to pick up a new card as soon as I am finished with this post. I was up all night reading more about the Torque engine and decided to add this post to get some user input. There were alot of aspects to the RC engine I truly liked and needed, but after studying specific areas, I think Torque can handle my needs... I'll find out more after working with the demo.
4. I have already included TSE in the prospective budget.
5. It seemed that the issue the gentleman had was in, not only the pipeline, but also in the 'end result.' To be quite honest with you, from what I have seen... it seems to me the end result really depends on the modeller's abilities. Other than that, both engines seemed to have similar end results, artistically speaking.
In general, yes, I agree that learning how the engine works is important.... The task of scripting will fall upon my head which is how I prefer it. From what I can see of the scripting language, it seems very friendly and even very 'readable.'
Brian...
I agree. Having access to the source code is a tremendous asset and allows for wide sweeping or very important basic changes in a game. As a coder, I love that aspect. Scripting is fun, coding can be if one does not have to write the engine from scratch. Incidentally, how is the source code documentation? Is it well documented or sporadic?
It is my intentions to work with TGE first.... then with everything else Torque offers.
By the way, I was reading about the limitations of the number of players on a Torque produced MMORPG... 100? How is it that the engine is limiting the number of players and not the server hardware and connection speed? I am weak in this area and it is important that I learn where the limitations are beforehand. I am always open to learning more... and more... and yet more!
On a side note.... Any thoughts on the 2D engine? I have a variety of projects that need to be released that do not require a 3D engine of the magnitude of TGE 3D.
~Silver Mane
#5
Do not misunderstand: I am all for someone trying to raise their level of expertise from whatever level they are, but I am 48, I have been publishing, selling and in business for a quarter of a century. Yes, I deal in the 'fun stuff' of life and am a kid at heart... Always will be. Maybe that's why my son and I get along so well. However, it doesn't mean I want to do business with immature people. "Yo, wassup," just doesn't cut it at a round table discussion with my team. Even my 17 year-old son knows that and he sits in and participates on those meetings.
I believe most of you can understand how I feel.
~Silver Mane
10/06/2005 (5:12 pm)
Oh, one other thing I like about Torque are the forums. They seem to be so much more mature, as a whole, than the RC forums. It is not my intentions to 'bash' the RC forums at all. It's just a fact of reality. From what I have read on these forums, I feel I am dealing with professionals and intelligent adults whereas on the RC forums I see a great number of 'kiddies' involving themselves before they are ready.Do not misunderstand: I am all for someone trying to raise their level of expertise from whatever level they are, but I am 48, I have been publishing, selling and in business for a quarter of a century. Yes, I deal in the 'fun stuff' of life and am a kid at heart... Always will be. Maybe that's why my son and I get along so well. However, it doesn't mean I want to do business with immature people. "Yo, wassup," just doesn't cut it at a round table discussion with my team. Even my 17 year-old son knows that and he sits in and participates on those meetings.
I believe most of you can understand how I feel.
~Silver Mane
#6
I absolutely love T2D. Melv and crew have done an excellent job on it. But it really depends on what your motivating factors are for the engine in its current state. We'll know more after IGC, I'm sure.
The numbers of players is not hard coded. It is simply a Tribes 2 statistic for computers back in the day and their connections. Your numbers will vary depending on your connections and such. Josh Ritter would be a better person to talk to about this, though, as his team has developed a single-player/MMORPG using Torque. He will also be the first to tell you that he learned to use the engine from the code, not from documentation. The Torque Developer Network (TDN) is on its way as well.
BTW, I have the same update issue in RC.
10/06/2005 (6:08 pm)
I wouldn't call RC's graphics that great, but they are also the example graphics. One thing that is nice about it is that if you use Max, you get a great set of B3D tools for art content. You are spot on about the artist's talent being the key, though. B3D has some amazingly beautiful games, and it has some very, very crappy looking ones. As does TGE.I absolutely love T2D. Melv and crew have done an excellent job on it. But it really depends on what your motivating factors are for the engine in its current state. We'll know more after IGC, I'm sure.
The numbers of players is not hard coded. It is simply a Tribes 2 statistic for computers back in the day and their connections. Your numbers will vary depending on your connections and such. Josh Ritter would be a better person to talk to about this, though, as his team has developed a single-player/MMORPG using Torque. He will also be the first to tell you that he learned to use the engine from the code, not from documentation. The Torque Developer Network (TDN) is on its way as well.
BTW, I have the same update issue in RC.
#7
Are you saying that you can purchase a Gold membership from Realm Crafter now? I couldn't find that option. If so, please forward a link. Also, I am on the same page with you in terms of seeking a more mature, professional audience. It is for that reason that I like the Garage Games forums. I am also an adult and prefer consulting with other adults when it comes to business issues.
10/06/2005 (6:29 pm)
K. SilverAre you saying that you can purchase a Gold membership from Realm Crafter now? I couldn't find that option. If so, please forward a link. Also, I am on the same page with you in terms of seeking a more mature, professional audience. It is for that reason that I like the Garage Games forums. I am also an adult and prefer consulting with other adults when it comes to business issues.
#8
Funily enough we are making some progress with a actual B3d loader that works with a modified version of the standard TGE OpenGL renderer. The thing with torque as far as graphics go is that you can use either openGL or D3D and are not limited to the renderer your given. Which is NOT the case with Blitz3D and realmcrafter. With Torque, If you have experienced coders you can make the renderer do what you want.
I actualy have a little video I threw together. Not brilliant but if your familiar with B3D you will appreciate how similar TGE looks when the renderer is modified to emulate B3D materials.
Its an 11mb WMV file.
s93153354.onlinehome.us/Movieoust.wmv
and shows some extra features added to the renderer that still work on older cards from the Geforce2 era and up.
10/06/2005 (6:36 pm)
TGE out of the box can be limiting since it has only 1 UV channel and limited multitexturing capabilities. However you can modify it to suit your needs. I've been using B3d for 2 years and have recently made the transition to using torque alongside my other work. Funily enough we are making some progress with a actual B3d loader that works with a modified version of the standard TGE OpenGL renderer. The thing with torque as far as graphics go is that you can use either openGL or D3D and are not limited to the renderer your given. Which is NOT the case with Blitz3D and realmcrafter. With Torque, If you have experienced coders you can make the renderer do what you want.
I actualy have a little video I threw together. Not brilliant but if your familiar with B3D you will appreciate how similar TGE looks when the renderer is modified to emulate B3D materials.
Its an 11mb WMV file.
s93153354.onlinehome.us/Movieoust.wmv
and shows some extra features added to the renderer that still work on older cards from the Geforce2 era and up.
#9
By the way...are you Evak?
10/06/2005 (6:53 pm)
Adrian...that video is absolutely beautiful. Very inspiring.By the way...are you Evak?
#10
10/06/2005 (6:54 pm)
Um, yeah :)
#11
Thank you for the acknowledgement of the 'garbage in-garbage out' theory. It is as I suspected. I figured that the artwork final outcome would be about the same.
As far as the T2D engine, what did you mean by the 'motivating factors?'
What can you tell me about the TDN...? That sound very interesting to me as it seems it might educate me a great deal on the capabilities of Torque's engine to handle larger player loads.
I am 'Silver Mane' on RC. Feel free to PM me there. And, incidentally, Mark Bryant wrote to m, letting me know they just hired... well... here... let me pull the quote....
"I just hired a new support tech with extensive experience in troubleshooting cases like yours/ours. He starts today infact, and after getting his feet wet, I'm going to put him on the case. " (Mark Bryant in an Email to me)
So, there is some hope.
Nmuta,
I will look into RC's situation and see about getting a link for their product site. I will have that information for you within 15 minutes.
I cannot express well enough the overwhelming satisfaction of dealing with a mature peer group. This forum's personality alone make me want to belong....
Adrian,
It is clear that you are well-versed in the graphics end of the game (pun), however I am weak in that area. Perhaps you could explain OpenGL to me. The first I have encountered it is with Torque.
As for your video, well done, sir. When I saw your coliseum, I just had to smile. One of the things I need to produce in the very beginning of this new project is a coliseum... and, lo, there it was!!!! I can see that it is clean and beautiful to the eye. Now, I am more excited than ever about what might be possible with Torque.... Even if I have to employ some B3D aspects!
Oh, who is 'evac?'
Now, I have to run to get that information for Nmuta then shut down and install my new card.
I'll be right back, Nmuta....
~Silver Mane
10/06/2005 (9:42 pm)
David,Thank you for the acknowledgement of the 'garbage in-garbage out' theory. It is as I suspected. I figured that the artwork final outcome would be about the same.
As far as the T2D engine, what did you mean by the 'motivating factors?'
What can you tell me about the TDN...? That sound very interesting to me as it seems it might educate me a great deal on the capabilities of Torque's engine to handle larger player loads.
I am 'Silver Mane' on RC. Feel free to PM me there. And, incidentally, Mark Bryant wrote to m, letting me know they just hired... well... here... let me pull the quote....
"I just hired a new support tech with extensive experience in troubleshooting cases like yours/ours. He starts today infact, and after getting his feet wet, I'm going to put him on the case. " (Mark Bryant in an Email to me)
So, there is some hope.
Nmuta,
I will look into RC's situation and see about getting a link for their product site. I will have that information for you within 15 minutes.
I cannot express well enough the overwhelming satisfaction of dealing with a mature peer group. This forum's personality alone make me want to belong....
Adrian,
It is clear that you are well-versed in the graphics end of the game (pun), however I am weak in that area. Perhaps you could explain OpenGL to me. The first I have encountered it is with Torque.
As for your video, well done, sir. When I saw your coliseum, I just had to smile. One of the things I need to produce in the very beginning of this new project is a coliseum... and, lo, there it was!!!! I can see that it is clean and beautiful to the eye. Now, I am more excited than ever about what might be possible with Torque.... Even if I have to employ some B3D aspects!
Oh, who is 'evac?'
Now, I have to run to get that information for Nmuta then shut down and install my new card.
I'll be right back, Nmuta....
~Silver Mane
#12
A quote from a post regarding the store....
"Dragon closed the store to let the admins fix a problem with the system, that is not letting some people receive some emails.
Wednesday 8am EST is the start up of it. "
We can take that as "Anytime now...!"
As far as getting on the new site, it is for members only, apparently. You must own a copy of RC to get onto the forums. I will post a question to help clarify how to make the purchase and acquire forum membership requirements.
As soon as I find out anything else, I will let you know.
~Silver Mane
10/06/2005 (9:53 pm)
Okay, Nmuta.... I was able to find this....A quote from a post regarding the store....
"Dragon closed the store to let the admins fix a problem with the system, that is not letting some people receive some emails.
Wednesday 8am EST is the start up of it. "
We can take that as "Anytime now...!"
As far as getting on the new site, it is for members only, apparently. You must own a copy of RC to get onto the forums. I will post a question to help clarify how to make the purchase and acquire forum membership requirements.
As soon as I find out anything else, I will let you know.
~Silver Mane
#13
@K. Silver ... Evak is Adrian's handle on the Blitz site.
10/06/2005 (10:57 pm)
Anyone going to IGC will get to play on that map Adrian posted first hand!!!@K. Silver ... Evak is Adrian's handle on the Blitz site.
#14
Okay, this is bad.... VERY bad. I live in a remote part of the state. I am not close to a large city so my immediate resources are limited. The only video card available to me was an ATI Radeon 9250 Diamond Stealth 256 MB. Well, I bought it... Looks as if I will be returning it tomorrow and driving to the nearest REAL computer supplier, despite the distance. I am currently running in 640 x 480 pixel mode - the only mode available to me. The driver installer still absolutely refuses to recognize its own hardware. I have found that many, many (frustrated) users have had to deal with identical issues. As you might surmise, I forthwith refuse to buy or deal with anything by Radeon or ATI. In addition, my research has shown that this video card is also not OpenGL compliant. Not good, so that makes a second reason to absolutely not retain a video card from this company, especially this one.
I suppose this is a rant. I simply do not have time for this kind of garbage. As with the rest of you, I know when I depend on a piece of equipment to work, it better work or it's history because someone out there will provide with something dependable.
Even Walmart can get me Nvidea... It'll just take a day.
Well, let me switch back to the old card. I'll talk at you shortly.
~Silver Mane
10/06/2005 (11:58 pm)
Ah, thank you, Jermemy.Okay, this is bad.... VERY bad. I live in a remote part of the state. I am not close to a large city so my immediate resources are limited. The only video card available to me was an ATI Radeon 9250 Diamond Stealth 256 MB. Well, I bought it... Looks as if I will be returning it tomorrow and driving to the nearest REAL computer supplier, despite the distance. I am currently running in 640 x 480 pixel mode - the only mode available to me. The driver installer still absolutely refuses to recognize its own hardware. I have found that many, many (frustrated) users have had to deal with identical issues. As you might surmise, I forthwith refuse to buy or deal with anything by Radeon or ATI. In addition, my research has shown that this video card is also not OpenGL compliant. Not good, so that makes a second reason to absolutely not retain a video card from this company, especially this one.
I suppose this is a rant. I simply do not have time for this kind of garbage. As with the rest of you, I know when I depend on a piece of equipment to work, it better work or it's history because someone out there will provide with something dependable.
Even Walmart can get me Nvidea... It'll just take a day.
Well, let me switch back to the old card. I'll talk at you shortly.
~Silver Mane
#15
I just got this response to a request post from Fale, a site administrator....
"Well I send people to the RC site, which is being updated soon, and at the moment thats the only place. But there is a store there, its up and down being worked on tho. But when up they can buy it."
~Silver Mane
10/07/2005 (12:32 am)
Nmuta...I just got this response to a request post from Fale, a site administrator....
"Well I send people to the RC site, which is being updated soon, and at the moment thats the only place. But there is a store there, its up and down being worked on tho. But when up they can buy it."
~Silver Mane
#16
Apparently TGE 1.4 has had code cleaned up and better commented.
www.garagegames.com/blogs/8863/8670
See this .plan for a TDN preview:
www.garagegames.com/blogs/8863/8100
10/07/2005 (12:58 am)
Silver,Apparently TGE 1.4 has had code cleaned up and better commented.
www.garagegames.com/blogs/8863/8670
See this .plan for a TDN preview:
www.garagegames.com/blogs/8863/8100
#18
My opinion is that true torque strength lies in torque community. When I first started i didn't know anything about game design, modeling,scripting in torque but this community can push you faster than any else.
I'we seen terrible graphics with Blitz, Gamestudio and Torque, but I'we seen great ones too with all this engines.
Network code in torque is great but I don't think that you will be able to create MMORPG "out of box", altough I don't belive that is possible to create MMORPG with any of mentioned engines (without changing engine code).
One more thing, torque code is scarry, but in most cases you won't have the need to go that deep, lots of stuff can be solved with torque script, which is fairly easy to learn.
Good luck with your project!
P.S. Sorry for my english but is not my native language ;)
10/07/2005 (4:04 am)
K. Silver, I own Radeon 9200 and 9600 XT and TGE is running perfectly on both cards (except some problems with screenshots but that's easily solved).My opinion is that true torque strength lies in torque community. When I first started i didn't know anything about game design, modeling,scripting in torque but this community can push you faster than any else.
I'we seen terrible graphics with Blitz, Gamestudio and Torque, but I'we seen great ones too with all this engines.
Network code in torque is great but I don't think that you will be able to create MMORPG "out of box", altough I don't belive that is possible to create MMORPG with any of mentioned engines (without changing engine code).
One more thing, torque code is scarry, but in most cases you won't have the need to go that deep, lots of stuff can be solved with torque script, which is fairly easy to learn.
Good luck with your project!
P.S. Sorry for my english but is not my native language ;)
#19
You do however absolutely need to realize that RC is designed specifically to give the functionality needed for "MMOG"-style games (at least from their publicity and marketing, I personally have never used the product), and therefore does provide functionality in those areas---Torque out of the box does not. Torque primarily focused on the specific requirements and functionality/capability for high fidelity networked FPS games, and therefore is optimized and geared towards that style game.
I'm not saying that Torque isn't a good tool for MMOG's, and I'm not saying that Torque cannot make one (in fact, I'm working on one myself in my spare time)...what I'm saying is that as a tool, you will discover that RC is focused towards those wanting to make MMOGS, while Torque isn't quite as focused. There are dozens of reasources available for many of the functionality sets that MMOG's need that are provided by the community for Torque, and as people have indicated, Minions of Mirth is a "massive" game (although not quite what you think of when you say "EQ" or "WoW"--he did things his own way!).
You asked for a fair/honest comparison, so I wanted to point out this design difference...out of the box, RC is most likely more focused on getting a MMOG up and running the soonest, while Torque will require additional effort. That additional effort by the way is not necessarily a bad thing...it gives you the flexibility to do things how -you- want!
10/07/2005 (7:03 am)
If you've been looking at (and at least tentatively selected) RealmCrafter as your initial engine, you need to keep in mind that Torque and RC were developed for different target genres, and therefore have different requirements and capabilities. Ironically, with your original question being about graphics, that isn't one in which the functionalities diverge much--as you noted, it's the artist not the tools so to speak in that regard.You do however absolutely need to realize that RC is designed specifically to give the functionality needed for "MMOG"-style games (at least from their publicity and marketing, I personally have never used the product), and therefore does provide functionality in those areas---Torque out of the box does not. Torque primarily focused on the specific requirements and functionality/capability for high fidelity networked FPS games, and therefore is optimized and geared towards that style game.
I'm not saying that Torque isn't a good tool for MMOG's, and I'm not saying that Torque cannot make one (in fact, I'm working on one myself in my spare time)...what I'm saying is that as a tool, you will discover that RC is focused towards those wanting to make MMOGS, while Torque isn't quite as focused. There are dozens of reasources available for many of the functionality sets that MMOG's need that are provided by the community for Torque, and as people have indicated, Minions of Mirth is a "massive" game (although not quite what you think of when you say "EQ" or "WoW"--he did things his own way!).
You asked for a fair/honest comparison, so I wanted to point out this design difference...out of the box, RC is most likely more focused on getting a MMOG up and running the soonest, while Torque will require additional effort. That additional effort by the way is not necessarily a bad thing...it gives you the flexibility to do things how -you- want!
#20
10/07/2005 (8:06 am)
Depending on what you need, T2D can be your best friend or give you much frustration. It is on my best-friends list, though isometric tiling with physics reactions, etc are an issue for some. I'm not a big fan of the iso perspective (I prefer the Ultima 7 perspective more). But if you go with, say, BlitzMax, you will have to build your engine from the ground up. Depending on the game style, that may be a great solution. But if you have several game styles, utilizing a more robust engine toolset could greatly enhance your development time. Especially if you were looking at creating mini-games within your TGE title. T2D drops right in nicely. I'm currently using it to create most of my interfaces. It's a rather trivial use for an advanced engine, but it is 1) fun and 2) effects heavy in flashy ways that the standard GUI is not (and I did not need things such as trees and the like in the main interfaces).
Torque 3D Owner Chris "DiGi" Timberlake