T2D update review (from 1.0.2 to 1.1 so far) ... and a question
by Josh Williams · in Torque Game Builder · 09/08/2005 (4:13 am) · 71 replies
Hello all,
Alrighty, I've been meaning to get an update out to everyone going over the changes we've made to T2D since we started jamming on version 1.1... it's been a long road, but man, things are looking good. People have asked to get regular updates on what we're working on, so I'm writing this post to go over, at least at a high level, the changes we have in T2D right now and what we've been working on. I also have an important question to get you guys' opinions on at the end here.
So, what have we been up to? First off, I would highly recommend that you read the T2D dev teams' .plans: Melv #1, Melv #2, Melv #3, Object Editor, GUI and Inspector work, Turn-based Networking. Between these .plans, you can get a pretty good idea of what we've been cranking away on. In this post, I want to cover the other areas we've been working on, and update you all on what's happening.
The high level list of changes we've made to T2D is below. Briefly though, I just wanted to let people know that a lot of what's gone into T2D 1.1-- and a big part of the reason it's taken so much longer to get out than we originally hoped-- is that the engine is being actively used in full-on commercial game development right now. There are two big studios working on multiple T2D titles at the moment, and here at GG, we have a T2D game in the works as well (which we'll be talking more about at the Indie Games Con!). All this has led to *tons* of great T2D feedback, a lot of which we've incorporated in the T2D 1.1 dev plan as much of it was interwoven and connected to work we were already doing for 1.1. Getting all this feedback on T2D has resulted in a much, much, much more solid and stable codebase, as well as many performance improvements in addition to the core features we had planned for T2D 1.1.
As for what we've changed:
-Simplified physics set-up -- added easier to understand script calls, and made it so you don't have to use the T2D physics system by default. Added new automated physics response modes.
-Added object editor - now you can edit any t2dSceneObject's information using a GUI-driven Inspector, similar to the GUI Editor, or TGE's World Editor Inspector. You can also draw collision polys with a point and click interface
-Created T2D GUI event system... you can now both have T2D objects receive GUI events (so your sprites can receive onMouseEnter, onClick, etc, etc), and/or make T2D control standard TGE GUIs!
-Refined and fixed turn-based networking.
-Tons of bug fixes
-Tons of performance improvements
-Set-up T2D area on TDN-- The Torque Developer Network, which is our forthcoming community-focused, wiki-based documentation and tutorial site)
-Added new docs, and updated all existing docs to work with T2D 1.1
-Re-named all T2D core objects... the naming convention is no longer fx__________2D, but t2d_________________. So, fxStaticSprite2D is now known as t2dStaticSprite. The rest of the calls on the objects are still the same though (or, 99% the same), so getting existing scripts to run in T2D 1.1 pretty much just involves searching and replacing the class names.
-Added much more flexible object saving mechanisms... version-safe, so we won't break saved art assets, tile maps, particle effects, etc in the future in T2D updates after version 1.1
-Many, many smaller changes: added new GUI controls, extended collision system, refined datablocks, refined default physics / collision values, extended t2dVector, OS X fixes, etc, etc, etc.
Alrighty, I've been meaning to get an update out to everyone going over the changes we've made to T2D since we started jamming on version 1.1... it's been a long road, but man, things are looking good. People have asked to get regular updates on what we're working on, so I'm writing this post to go over, at least at a high level, the changes we have in T2D right now and what we've been working on. I also have an important question to get you guys' opinions on at the end here.
So, what have we been up to? First off, I would highly recommend that you read the T2D dev teams' .plans: Melv #1, Melv #2, Melv #3, Object Editor, GUI and Inspector work, Turn-based Networking. Between these .plans, you can get a pretty good idea of what we've been cranking away on. In this post, I want to cover the other areas we've been working on, and update you all on what's happening.
The high level list of changes we've made to T2D is below. Briefly though, I just wanted to let people know that a lot of what's gone into T2D 1.1-- and a big part of the reason it's taken so much longer to get out than we originally hoped-- is that the engine is being actively used in full-on commercial game development right now. There are two big studios working on multiple T2D titles at the moment, and here at GG, we have a T2D game in the works as well (which we'll be talking more about at the Indie Games Con!). All this has led to *tons* of great T2D feedback, a lot of which we've incorporated in the T2D 1.1 dev plan as much of it was interwoven and connected to work we were already doing for 1.1. Getting all this feedback on T2D has resulted in a much, much, much more solid and stable codebase, as well as many performance improvements in addition to the core features we had planned for T2D 1.1.
As for what we've changed:
-Simplified physics set-up -- added easier to understand script calls, and made it so you don't have to use the T2D physics system by default. Added new automated physics response modes.
-Added object editor - now you can edit any t2dSceneObject's information using a GUI-driven Inspector, similar to the GUI Editor, or TGE's World Editor Inspector. You can also draw collision polys with a point and click interface
-Created T2D GUI event system... you can now both have T2D objects receive GUI events (so your sprites can receive onMouseEnter, onClick, etc, etc), and/or make T2D control standard TGE GUIs!
-Refined and fixed turn-based networking.
-Tons of bug fixes
-Tons of performance improvements
-Set-up T2D area on TDN-- The Torque Developer Network, which is our forthcoming community-focused, wiki-based documentation and tutorial site)
-Added new docs, and updated all existing docs to work with T2D 1.1
-Re-named all T2D core objects... the naming convention is no longer fx__________2D, but t2d_________________. So, fxStaticSprite2D is now known as t2dStaticSprite. The rest of the calls on the objects are still the same though (or, 99% the same), so getting existing scripts to run in T2D 1.1 pretty much just involves searching and replacing the class names.
-Added much more flexible object saving mechanisms... version-safe, so we won't break saved art assets, tile maps, particle effects, etc in the future in T2D updates after version 1.1
-Many, many smaller changes: added new GUI controls, extended collision system, refined datablocks, refined default physics / collision values, extended t2dVector, OS X fixes, etc, etc, etc.
#2
Thanks for all the great work on this and it was great meeting you at PAX!
09/08/2005 (4:19 am)
Yes, a beta of 1.1 would be great if nothing else to get a head start on all the renaming.Thanks for all the great work on this and it was great meeting you at PAX!
#3
As for a pre-release release, I'd personally be all for it, but then I do realize you run the risks you've outlined. At the same time, it could be said that either way you'll have naysayers and complainers. Objectively I think it could be useful to get feedback from the community in addition to the dev studios you're already talking to, and subjectively, I just really want to play with the new update. :p
09/08/2005 (4:28 am)
I'll start off by saying that I really appreciate the update. Good tohave a nice, semi-concrete summary of what's going on behind the scenes. :) 1.1 is looking rather nice, from the plans and this update, and I'm really looking forward to playing with it.As for a pre-release release, I'd personally be all for it, but then I do realize you run the risks you've outlined. At the same time, it could be said that either way you'll have naysayers and complainers. Objectively I think it could be useful to get feedback from the community in addition to the dev studios you're already talking to, and subjectively, I just really want to play with the new update. :p
#4
Thanks muchly for the update, Josh! This is very exciting news. I'm anxious to see what kind of commercial games we have on the way!
09/08/2005 (5:13 am)
I think a beta run of 1.1 would be a positive thing. Being that it would be a beta release, it should be expected that there are features missing, bugs present, what have you. The important thing is that it would give us a chance to contribute to the testing process, and it would give everyone a chance to see just how worthwhile the wait has been. :)Thanks muchly for the update, Josh! This is very exciting news. I'm anxious to see what kind of commercial games we have on the way!
#5
09/08/2005 (5:25 am)
I just want to chip in that I think a beta realase would be *very* nice. As said above, if for nothing else to get a chance to play with the new baby! ;)
#6
Thanks for the update! Exactly what we needed.
09/08/2005 (6:37 am)
The best thing about an early release is that we can start development now on that codebase. I'm jumping into a new game, and I want to use 1.1 for it, but I can't wait several months for the final 1.1 since I have to start right away. So this solves that problem nicely!Thanks for the update! Exactly what we needed.
#7
09/08/2005 (7:10 am)
I'm all for a early 1.1 as well. I also sent you an eMail.
#8
Anyway, sounds like some great stuff coming out - I can't wait!
09/08/2005 (7:16 am)
Access to the 1.1 beta release would be great. As mentioned above, I would much rather work with the new system so I don't have to migrate scripts over in the future. I'm using T2D as a learning tool for myself, and I'm sure many others here are too, so I don't mind it not being production quality. Personally I can't wait to get to the WIKI system for documention. Right now I feel like I'm always hunting through the forums, resources, .plans, and the /docs folder on my computer - when it would be great to have everything in one area.Anyway, sounds like some great stuff coming out - I can't wait!
#9
09/08/2005 (7:42 am)
Yeah bring it on.
#10
09/08/2005 (7:44 am)
Agreed with everybody. Everybody who has T2D is used to the the idea, since we are working with the EA release. I would welcome it, just to get something fresh and new, as well as get a head start working with the new naming, etc.
#11
09/08/2005 (8:17 am)
Beta would be awesome. If you're open to the idea of releasing betas for future releases as well, I'd suggest adding a few T2D beta version forums to keep bugs and new version development questions separated from current version stuff.
#12
09/08/2005 (9:35 am)
I vote beta 1.1
#13
And thanks for the update too!
09/08/2005 (10:09 am)
Another vote for a 1.1 beta. You'll have complainers, but I think the feedback from the majority of the community will be beneficial to T2D development. On a personal level (and like many others), the sooner I can start using the new naming and things like the event system for objects the better.And thanks for the update too!
#14
As long as you guys over at the garage can do it without getting upset about some of the responses your going to get, then go for it.
What I would like to see even more is a better way of dispersing information. I just happend apon this thread. Now adays I just look to see if there is any new plans from the Employees so I almost missed this. Also, even though Melv is not an offical member, I would really like to see his .Plans in the employee section.
Thats just me though.
09/08/2005 (11:49 am)
I'm mostly for it. The one thing to consider is the pure amount of more headache that your going to get from the few people who already complain about the stable state of EA getting even more fiesty about beta releases.As long as you guys over at the garage can do it without getting upset about some of the responses your going to get, then go for it.
What I would like to see even more is a better way of dispersing information. I just happend apon this thread. Now adays I just look to see if there is any new plans from the Employees so I almost missed this. Also, even though Melv is not an offical member, I would really like to see his .Plans in the employee section.
Thats just me though.
#15
The concern I have is more on the line of the questions that we get asked. Currently, we only really deal with questions concerning 1.0.2. Are we going to have a separate forum area for 1.1 questions? If we don't, I could easily see confusion arising from questions dealing with the different versions when a person doesn't specify which version that they are talking about.
09/08/2005 (11:50 am)
Quote:I'd hate to cause a bunch of support problems for all of us on the T2D dev team and the helpful community membesr here by releasing code that'd result in too many people complaining about it having bugs or not being done yet.
The concern I have is more on the line of the questions that we get asked. Currently, we only really deal with questions concerning 1.0.2. Are we going to have a separate forum area for 1.1 questions? If we don't, I could easily see confusion arising from questions dealing with the different versions when a person doesn't specify which version that they are talking about.
#16
09/08/2005 (11:51 am)
I agree with Smaug on that point as well. Never thought I would say that! 
#17
@Charlie: I'm not sure I qualify in getting my name on the employees blogs (I get far too much sleep) but it would be nice to have an associates one I guess.
- Melv.
09/08/2005 (11:58 am)
That's a very good point Smaug.@Charlie: I'm not sure I qualify in getting my name on the employees blogs (I get far too much sleep) but it would be nice to have an associates one I guess.
- Melv.
#18
When this goes live, I'll just try and be clear that this preview / beta is early code we're dropping out to everyone in hopes it'll be useful for them. 1.0.2 will still be available for stable work, and the beta should only be downloaded by choice if you're willing to trade a preview of the new systems and functionality for a bit of instability. If you all can help make that message clear to everyone else when the beta is released, that'll rock too.
Let us wrap up a bit more work on 1.1, (imageMaps, and hopefully an easy merge with TGE 1.4 Release Candidate 2), and then I'll get this out for people. (Just to note: it'll still burn a couple days to prepare, test, and set-up the beta after the actual code for it is done.)
Good call Joseph and Smaug. I'll create a temporary T2D 1.1 area when the beta goes live so people can ask questions, report bugs, etc in an organized way. The only potential snag with a temporary 1.1 beta forum is that when the beta is done and T2D proper actually moves to version 1.1, we'll probably want to close that forum area. All the main areas will all be for 1.1 at that point, so no benefit in having a 1.1 exclusive area. Problem is, if we close the beta forum, we'd obviously lose the threads in there. So, maybe the solution there is to leave the temp 1.1 area open for a couple weeks after t2d proper launches, and have people move the best / most imprortant threads over to their proper areas.
09/08/2005 (12:33 pm)
Okay guys, I'm all for this. Woot! Very exciting. We always wanted T2D development to be a fairly open process, as long as the overhead associated with it didn't take too much time. So, this is great.When this goes live, I'll just try and be clear that this preview / beta is early code we're dropping out to everyone in hopes it'll be useful for them. 1.0.2 will still be available for stable work, and the beta should only be downloaded by choice if you're willing to trade a preview of the new systems and functionality for a bit of instability. If you all can help make that message clear to everyone else when the beta is released, that'll rock too.
Let us wrap up a bit more work on 1.1, (imageMaps, and hopefully an easy merge with TGE 1.4 Release Candidate 2), and then I'll get this out for people. (Just to note: it'll still burn a couple days to prepare, test, and set-up the beta after the actual code for it is done.)
Good call Joseph and Smaug. I'll create a temporary T2D 1.1 area when the beta goes live so people can ask questions, report bugs, etc in an organized way. The only potential snag with a temporary 1.1 beta forum is that when the beta is done and T2D proper actually moves to version 1.1, we'll probably want to close that forum area. All the main areas will all be for 1.1 at that point, so no benefit in having a 1.1 exclusive area. Problem is, if we close the beta forum, we'd obviously lose the threads in there. So, maybe the solution there is to leave the temp 1.1 area open for a couple weeks after t2d proper launches, and have people move the best / most imprortant threads over to their proper areas.
#19
But dwarfing that, thanks ten times over for the update itself. I'd still be thrilled to pieces even without a 1.1 sneak-peek. :)
09/08/2005 (1:23 pm)
The 1.1 sneak peak is a nice idea, especially if 1.1 release is looking to be a bit further out still. The performance enhancements alone would be wonderful to have!But dwarfing that, thanks ten times over for the update itself. I'd still be thrilled to pieces even without a 1.1 sneak-peek. :)
#20
maybe just rename each time a new beta is released. beta 1.1 forum and then beta 1.2 forum and so on.
09/08/2005 (2:23 pm)
In response to having a beta forum. could you just create a beta forum for discussing whatever beta t2d is in? Everyone will now which one is the current one.maybe just rename each time a new beta is released. beta 1.1 forum and then beta 1.2 forum and so on.
Torque Owner Josh Williams
Default Studio Name
As for T2D 1.1 from here til release, there are still a number of things we want to get in, including refining the imageMap system, finishing the T2D packaging utility, merging against TGE 1.4, and more. So, there's still some work left from here until T2D 1.1 is done. Besides just getting the code done, we also need to thoroughly vet and test all the new stuff, fnish up and proof all the docs, and then of course do final packaging and testing.
Now, I wanted to get you guys' feedback on an idea. Do you think it'd go well if sometime in the near future we released a beta / preview of T2D 1.1 that you could download at your option in addition to the current 1.0.2 installer download? Basically, after we get just a bit more done and tested, we could roll out an installer of T2D 1.1 as it stands right now (not quite a feature-complete beta). My concern here is that we don't like to put out code that is not very well tested-- even with "Early Adopter" products, we test the heck out of them and make sure everything is of high quality and ready to help people make games. T2D 1.1 has not yet been that thoroughly vetted, and won't be until we launch it full-on.
But, if there'd be interest in this, I'd strongly consider doing it. I'd love to get some early feedback here on 1.1. And I'd love help testing T2D 1.1. I would not want to create more problems than we solve though by giving people code too early that they're not ready for (it's tougher for people to work on less stable, in-development code than it is for them to work on stable releases). I'd hate to cause a bunch of support problems for all of us on the T2D dev team and the helpful community membesr here by releasing code that'd result in too many people complaining about it having bugs or not being done yet. I also would not want to do this and then have to see and deal with negative or argumentative feedback. If we were to do this, we'd put it out very much as a bonus thing, to get you guys an early peek at what we're working on... we'd make no promises of it's stability, or that it's final. Welcome feedback, as always, but mature, constructive, helpful feedback.
So, what do you guys think? Would this be a good idea? Would you be interested? Would it go smoothly and lead to vastly more goodness around here than badness? Let me know what you think. Whatever the case, it'd still be a while before we could package this stuff up, but I wanted to throw this idea out and see what people have to say.
Okay... ended up being long after all. Thanks for reading. I'll do the next update next month. And I'm working on a .plan on T2D that should get up on the site here soon too (after the forthcoming .plan on TGE 1.4 Release Candidate 2 is out and has had some time to breath!)