Our Pickle.
by Jem Bem · in General Discussion · 08/24/2005 (5:03 am) · 14 replies
Hey all,
I want to explain the situation my team is in right now, and see what you all think. We are planning to use the Irrlicht Engine, along with OpenAL for audio, and Newton for physics to create an extremely original RTS. Well, we have posted ads for a concept artist a while ago (about a month) and seem to have received great interest in that position, so I assume at least that there is interest in our project. However, shortly after that we also posted a help wanted ad for some new programmers, which seems to have attracted no applicants at all.
At this point would you think that it's simply because no programmers have the time to help with our project, our project isn't that interesting, or that its due to us using Irrlicht? I believe it may have to do with us using Irrlicht, as many of you have seen the ease of use of Torque, and probably aren't interested in moving to a more complicated engine. I'm not sure though, thats why this post is here, so opinions please...
Thanks,
Sam
PS. The ad is at http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=project&page=view.job&qid=4867 , and we are also looking for musicians and more 3d artists if anyone is interested.
I want to explain the situation my team is in right now, and see what you all think. We are planning to use the Irrlicht Engine, along with OpenAL for audio, and Newton for physics to create an extremely original RTS. Well, we have posted ads for a concept artist a while ago (about a month) and seem to have received great interest in that position, so I assume at least that there is interest in our project. However, shortly after that we also posted a help wanted ad for some new programmers, which seems to have attracted no applicants at all.
At this point would you think that it's simply because no programmers have the time to help with our project, our project isn't that interesting, or that its due to us using Irrlicht? I believe it may have to do with us using Irrlicht, as many of you have seen the ease of use of Torque, and probably aren't interested in moving to a more complicated engine. I'm not sure though, thats why this post is here, so opinions please...
Thanks,
Sam
PS. The ad is at http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=project&page=view.job&qid=4867 , and we are also looking for musicians and more 3d artists if anyone is interested.
About the author
#2
Irrlicht rocks but is no where near as mature as Torque
08/24/2005 (5:23 am)
Irrlicht + RTS = lots more programming than Torque + RTS starter packIrrlicht rocks but is no where near as mature as Torque
#3
I say this not to down to engine, it is very impressive, especially for a one man project; but perhaps the programmers that have spent any time with Irrlicht understand what a *HUGE* task you are requesting, and don't want to spend that much time working on it.
Just a guess why the response for your programer position has been poor.
B--
08/24/2005 (6:20 am)
I've also played around with the newest version of Irrlicht. After just a few hours I noticed quite a few animation issues. The character animation seemed to 'occasionally' get jerky. This was with only 2 characters. I can't imagine the problems faced with 'hundreds' in an RTS.I say this not to down to engine, it is very impressive, especially for a one man project; but perhaps the programmers that have spent any time with Irrlicht understand what a *HUGE* task you are requesting, and don't want to spend that much time working on it.
Just a guess why the response for your programer position has been poor.
B--
#4
08/24/2005 (7:17 am)
You should explain all the work youve done on the project so far. storyboards, scripts, game art, sub-systems, whatever. also you dont mention anything about pay. no programmer's going to want to take on such huge project for the next 2 years based on such a brief description. 
#5
You are right, somewhat. Irrlicht is not as mature as Torque, but that's because Torque is a GAME engine. Irrlicht is just a rendering engine. All the other parts are up to you.
08/26/2005 (1:25 pm)
@NigelYou are right, somewhat. Irrlicht is not as mature as Torque, but that's because Torque is a GAME engine. Irrlicht is just a rendering engine. All the other parts are up to you.
#6
RTS Starter Kit - $50
Show Tool Pro - $35
for $185 you have a much more complete solution :)
08/26/2005 (1:36 pm)
Torque Game Engine - $100RTS Starter Kit - $50
Show Tool Pro - $35
for $185 you have a much more complete solution :)
#7
if you post "uncertain" or "royalties" you will get no help. (that's been my experience at least)
the reason why is that there are too many newbies /kids saying how awesome a game idea they have, etc etc, but no $$$ to back it up and the ideas die horribly.
08/26/2005 (1:56 pm)
I think the only serious way to get applicants for programming is if you pay them.if you post "uncertain" or "royalties" you will get no help. (that's been my experience at least)
the reason why is that there are too many newbies /kids saying how awesome a game idea they have, etc etc, but no $$$ to back it up and the ideas die horribly.
#8
I think a big problem is (so called) developers that are unwilling or unable to come up with even $200. It speaks volumes about the person or groups character. For example if you have been unable to figure out a way to save or work extra for just $200 dollars over the last 6 to 24 months, then how will you be able to figure out the complex challenges required to complete a successful game project that will also require at least that much time to complete? I dare say it is exponentially easier to figure out how to get an extra 200 dollars than it is to solve even a fraction of the challenges that will be faced in even 'simple' game design.
B--
08/26/2005 (3:02 pm)
@Mattew: That is cheap isn't it.. That is a whole lot of resource for under 200 bucks. It would take years for one person to develop that much framework from the ground up.I think a big problem is (so called) developers that are unwilling or unable to come up with even $200. It speaks volumes about the person or groups character. For example if you have been unable to figure out a way to save or work extra for just $200 dollars over the last 6 to 24 months, then how will you be able to figure out the complex challenges required to complete a successful game project that will also require at least that much time to complete? I dare say it is exponentially easier to figure out how to get an extra 200 dollars than it is to solve even a fraction of the challenges that will be faced in even 'simple' game design.
B--
#9
08/26/2005 (3:04 pm)
@Brandon: Completely agreed... in Game Dev there are volumes of problem solving and troubleshooting ahead, if you can't manage to invest $200 in it (or figure out how to earn that) then your in for much more of a challenge than you think :)
#10
I think that's not really the reason why people decide not to use a particular engine. The reason why a lot of people write their own stuff from the ground-up is because they percieve (whether valid or not) that the for-sale engine (ex: TGE) doesnt do exactly what they want, and think it is easier/better to write their enging from the groundup instead of adapting tge to fit their needs.
i'm not saying they are right or wrong (though mostly they are wrong) but that's how a lot of people I know react to using pre-built engines.
08/26/2005 (4:06 pm)
@Brandon and @Matthew:I think that's not really the reason why people decide not to use a particular engine. The reason why a lot of people write their own stuff from the ground-up is because they percieve (whether valid or not) that the for-sale engine (ex: TGE) doesnt do exactly what they want, and think it is easier/better to write their enging from the groundup instead of adapting tge to fit their needs.
i'm not saying they are right or wrong (though mostly they are wrong) but that's how a lot of people I know react to using pre-built engines.
#11
08/26/2005 (4:13 pm)
True... can see your point, though in this case they are starting with "Irrlicht" so it just seems better advice for them to start with an engine that has a starter kit specifically for what they need :)
#12
These guys dont want to create everything from scratch, they want to do everything for free. That means i seriously doubt they are going to be willing to pay anything to programmers, and therefor I dont think they will get any help... at least not until they have a working prototype.
08/26/2005 (6:54 pm)
@Matthew: ahhh, i just checked the Irrlicht engine and see what you and others are talking about.These guys dont want to create everything from scratch, they want to do everything for free. That means i seriously doubt they are going to be willing to pay anything to programmers, and therefor I dont think they will get any help... at least not until they have a working prototype.
#13
the Irrlicht engine is currently on version 0.12.0 for a reason. When I decided on what engine to use, I checked what was rated highly on the DevMaster site. After that, I looked at what proven games have been released with the engines.
Anyway, that's not your question I know. For your 'real" question, I strongly suggest you either pay people, or bust your butt and get a prototype, then use that to gather volunteers.
There are too many "OMFG MY IDEA IS AWESOME!" ideas out there that go bust, if any devs were naive enough to say yes to that first "volunteer project" they quickly became jaded enough to NOT volunteer on the second one that came along.
08/26/2005 (7:23 pm)
@Sam: generally speaking, you get a higher quality product if you pay for it VS if you dont. I would check out DevMaster 3D Engine Database and carefully scrutinize the comments for each.the Irrlicht engine is currently on version 0.12.0 for a reason. When I decided on what engine to use, I checked what was rated highly on the DevMaster site. After that, I looked at what proven games have been released with the engines.
Anyway, that's not your question I know. For your 'real" question, I strongly suggest you either pay people, or bust your butt and get a prototype, then use that to gather volunteers.
There are too many "OMFG MY IDEA IS AWESOME!" ideas out there that go bust, if any devs were naive enough to say yes to that first "volunteer project" they quickly became jaded enough to NOT volunteer on the second one that came along.
#14
08/26/2005 (11:12 pm)
Slight tangent on what's been mentioned: What is a reasonable rate to pay someone (artist/programmer) for working on a project? Say, for a project with the scope of Contra for the NES... Obviously better visual quality and deeper programming, but I think in today's terms the scope is on an equal leg relatively speaking. 
Torque Owner Teck Lee Tan