Torque for Macintosh
by James Lee · in Torque Game Engine · 01/31/2002 (8:52 am) · 41 replies
Cool guys! Very nice to see things shaping up on the Mac end. I've got a big concern about the tools. There are plugins for 3d StudioMax, but no Max for Macs. So where does that leave an all Mac production team?
-James
-James
#2
There are loads of projects like Quark etc that could have been built on a mac.
I dont know if any of them have been ported to the mac, but what about radiant?
Phil.
01/31/2002 (10:38 am)
Hmm, you sure there isnt a .map format creator already for mac?There are loads of projects like Quark etc that could have been built on a mac.
I dont know if any of them have been ported to the mac, but what about radiant?
Phil.
#3
Well if you're going to build a modeling application that runs on the Mac, how about something along the lines of MilkShape? BTW, I've already talked to Mete about MilkShape for the Mac. He would like to port it, but doesn't own a Mac and they cost too much in his country. So I guess if you can build something that has similar features to MilkShape and cost $20-$50, I would certainly buy it.
-James
01/31/2002 (10:51 am)
Thanks David. Well if you're going to build a modeling application that runs on the Mac, how about something along the lines of MilkShape? BTW, I've already talked to Mete about MilkShape for the Mac. He would like to port it, but doesn't own a Mac and they cost too much in his country. So I guess if you can build something that has similar features to MilkShape and cost $20-$50, I would certainly buy it.
-James
#4
I'd be more interested in plugins, format converters, and so on, that work with professional Macintosh 3D apps like Lightwave or Maya. A lot more bucks to shell out for my little team, yeah, but then they do a whole lot more than little Milkshape does.
01/31/2002 (1:38 pm)
If you built something with Milkshape's features for Macintosh, and it was in the sub-$200 range, I'd buy it. I'm willing to pay a premium for tools that run on Macintosh, especially for ones that don't make me boot back into Classic. I'd be more interested in plugins, format converters, and so on, that work with professional Macintosh 3D apps like Lightwave or Maya. A lot more bucks to shell out for my little team, yeah, but then they do a whole lot more than little Milkshape does.
#5
The idea of being able to directly interface with a modern high end 3D engine directly from my 3D application of choice makes me giddy.
01/31/2002 (2:41 pm)
I highly urge supporting LightWave or Cinema 4D.The idea of being able to directly interface with a modern high end 3D engine directly from my 3D application of choice makes me giddy.
#6
If you need to work with someone to further development or test out Mac platform importers, feel free to contact me.
01/31/2002 (2:47 pm)
I've been using LightWave and or Cinema 4D on the Mac to work through the UT and other commercial engines engine for the past 2 years. I am highly aware (possibly the most aware individual) of the pluses and minuses of these two 3D applications and their application to Mac 3D game development.If you need to work with someone to further development or test out Mac platform importers, feel free to contact me.
#7
Anyway, that's my indecisive 2 cents.
-Evan
01/31/2002 (3:54 pm)
Hm...though I'm not sure how many artists on mac use maya (it's expensive!), it would be a shame not to support it...like not supporting Max. Maya is very powerful and used for a lot of movie graphics. Second...it's a tossup between Cin4d and Lightwave. Allthough one of my mac people uses C4d, I've seen a lot of potential 3d artists for my game using Lightwave. I always feel bad for them, because most games don't seem to support it.Anyway, that's my indecisive 2 cents.
-Evan
#8
LightWave would probably be the better investment overall as you'd be helping out a bunch of PC developers as well if Torque supported it.
01/31/2002 (4:10 pm)
Cinema 4D is more stable, and after extensive use, I find it more appropriate for game modeling in general. Cinema's bone system is seriously flawed however, so after modeling and texturing, I bring the model back into LightWave for animation purposes.LightWave would probably be the better investment overall as you'd be helping out a bunch of PC developers as well if Torque supported it.
#9
-James
01/31/2002 (5:19 pm)
Lightwave and Maya are great, but how many people can afford them? One of the great things about the Torque engine is its price. It would actually be great if the developers at GarageGames could do both. That is, build a modeler/animator and plugins for those who have Maya and Lightwave.-James
#10
Just IMHO.
d
02/03/2002 (10:03 am)
With limited resources, there will need to be a pretty focused solution to start. If the community wants to pull together and build exporters, well that's what Torque is all about. And I'm sure the GarageGames guys could help people walk-through one of the current PC exporters to get an idea how to do the equivalent with one of the Mac products. Of course, if it's a cross-platform product, some Torquers on the PC side could also put some effort into this.Just IMHO.
d
#11
Quiver can be found at quiver.telefragged.com
Its not open source, but it works on OSX(classic).I think its $20 bucks for the registered version, to turn on the .map exporter.
The other info that Ive found is that qtkradiant is being ported over..it just looks like its stalled at the moment.
I found this @ www.planetquake.com/mmep/
I dont know if this info is usefull, but i saw no mention of this when i was researching.
-=myk=-
04/17/2002 (9:38 pm)
I just thought I'd chime in...even if a little late. Mac developement just became somewhat of an intrest because I just got a powerbook. But in my quest for use-able tools Ive found a tool that probably needs to be dusted off. Quiver can be found at quiver.telefragged.com
Its not open source, but it works on OSX(classic).I think its $20 bucks for the registered version, to turn on the .map exporter.
The other info that Ive found is that qtkradiant is being ported over..it just looks like its stalled at the moment.
I found this @ www.planetquake.com/mmep/
I dont know if this info is usefull, but i saw no mention of this when i was researching.
-=myk=-
#12
04/18/2002 (11:43 am)
There is a LW DTS exporter, search the forums, he's got a public beta, I thought?
#13
- the Lightwave stuff has been proceeding very well, and that looks like the most likely cross-plat commercial modelling solution that'll get the mac.
- there are some efforts for open-source, shareware, or freeware modeler support for TGE -- likely some of which will get to the mac.
- I've had a few discussions regarding Quiver use for TGE... stay tuned.
- Radiant would be great, but until they get hardware support it isn't much help.
d
04/19/2002 (6:03 am)
- there is still a need for some people to take on the commandline utils and tackle how they should be implemented for the mac. maybe OSX cmdline to start, mini drag-drop app later (like DropStuff...).- the Lightwave stuff has been proceeding very well, and that looks like the most likely cross-plat commercial modelling solution that'll get the mac.
- there are some efforts for open-source, shareware, or freeware modeler support for TGE -- likely some of which will get to the mac.
- I've had a few discussions regarding Quiver use for TGE... stay tuned.
- Radiant would be great, but until they get hardware support it isn't much help.
d
#14
Just registered my account; I'm another mac user wondering about the feasability of using Torque for my friends and I to start playing with ideas we've been loosely kicking around for 20 years or so. :P
We know very little about game development in general, and are definitely in the "hobbyist/starting out" category here, so treat all of these as newbie questions. Torque has come very highly recommended to me, and I'm ready to plunk down the C-note if it looks like a viable environment, but we're mac people primarily, and being able to develop things soup-to-nuts on the mac is going to be crucially important.
I haven't been able to get a very clear sense from the FAQ and the documentation on the site (at least what I've seen so far) of whether that's the case, or whether there are components of Torque or external requirements that are win32-only. If I could pose the question in a vast newbie style:
What are all of the components needed to build a game from scratch using Torque, and are all of those components available and supported for mac? If not, what's missing?
I know, for example, that there still isn't really a workable map editor on the mac, and this is an issue I've been very attentive to for years. Quiver was a wonderful app for Quake 1 editing, but it never had vertex manipulation (pretty essential for serious mapping) and the author stopped development on it years ago, keeping the source closed. I'm on the Radiant mailing lists, and radiant can run under Darwin, but without hardware acceleration it's pretty much useless, and the guys that can do that aren't in the Radiant camp and there's no guessing when/if that capacity will come. (I saw the note in this thread that there had been some discussions about Quiver and Torque, which raised my eyebrows greatly - has someone talked to Scott Kevill and gotten somewhere?)
It seems that a 3d modeling app is also needed, and Lightwave and Maya are both in the many-thousands-o-dollars ranges, so those are out for us. Are there other apps that are more affordable that we can work with? Or are we going to be unable to do much in Torque without laying out that kind of money for a modeling program? Or stuck with other peoples' models who are willing to share?
If someone could run down a checklist of all of the core components a team would need to create a game from scratch with Torque, and indicate which of those components are available for mac developers and which aren't, that would help me make the decision whether to pony up for Torque. It sounds great, but we mac folk are used to being stranded, or getting handed vanilla and being told chocolate is only available for win32.
Please forgive the newbieness of these questions, and thanks in advance for any responses.
05/05/2002 (4:08 pm)
Hi everyone.Just registered my account; I'm another mac user wondering about the feasability of using Torque for my friends and I to start playing with ideas we've been loosely kicking around for 20 years or so. :P
We know very little about game development in general, and are definitely in the "hobbyist/starting out" category here, so treat all of these as newbie questions. Torque has come very highly recommended to me, and I'm ready to plunk down the C-note if it looks like a viable environment, but we're mac people primarily, and being able to develop things soup-to-nuts on the mac is going to be crucially important.
I haven't been able to get a very clear sense from the FAQ and the documentation on the site (at least what I've seen so far) of whether that's the case, or whether there are components of Torque or external requirements that are win32-only. If I could pose the question in a vast newbie style:
What are all of the components needed to build a game from scratch using Torque, and are all of those components available and supported for mac? If not, what's missing?
I know, for example, that there still isn't really a workable map editor on the mac, and this is an issue I've been very attentive to for years. Quiver was a wonderful app for Quake 1 editing, but it never had vertex manipulation (pretty essential for serious mapping) and the author stopped development on it years ago, keeping the source closed. I'm on the Radiant mailing lists, and radiant can run under Darwin, but without hardware acceleration it's pretty much useless, and the guys that can do that aren't in the Radiant camp and there's no guessing when/if that capacity will come. (I saw the note in this thread that there had been some discussions about Quiver and Torque, which raised my eyebrows greatly - has someone talked to Scott Kevill and gotten somewhere?)
It seems that a 3d modeling app is also needed, and Lightwave and Maya are both in the many-thousands-o-dollars ranges, so those are out for us. Are there other apps that are more affordable that we can work with? Or are we going to be unable to do much in Torque without laying out that kind of money for a modeling program? Or stuck with other peoples' models who are willing to share?
If someone could run down a checklist of all of the core components a team would need to create a game from scratch with Torque, and indicate which of those components are available for mac developers and which aren't, that would help me make the decision whether to pony up for Torque. It sounds great, but we mac folk are used to being stranded, or getting handed vanilla and being told chocolate is only available for win32.
Please forgive the newbieness of these questions, and thanks in advance for any responses.
#16
compiler. Metrowerks (9 or X), or Project Builder (X, free).
other editor for scripting. compiler tools can be used, but helps to have a customizable syntax-coloring editor. lots of free ones around.
modeling app. there are some efforts to make a Torque-custom multiplatform modeler. But for now, LightWave seems the only route at the moment, with animation export support sounding like it is coming soon. LW 7.5 can be had for 395 as an edu version, or as an upgrade from ANY previous registered version (i.e., real owned serial number). a little pricey, but it's a serious app.
construction app. quiver has been mentioned, but hasn't really been explored yet -- but it's something being looked into still. radiant runs in software, not yet in hardware -- not sure what progress they are making. i believe there's been discussions about construction editor projects, but haven't heard much lately.
level design. built in. terrain terraforming, placing constructions & integrating indoor/outdoor spaces, objects, spawns/triggers, etc.
art app. there's a ton of free, shareware, and cheap retail paint apps. and lots of free textures out there already.
sound app. anything that creates WAVs. also some added support for Ogg has been passed around in the Resources section.
Of course, you can also grab a copy of Virtual PC and probably do pretty darn well on a modern mac.
d
05/24/2002 (8:18 pm)
Tools needed:compiler. Metrowerks (9 or X), or Project Builder (X, free).
other editor for scripting. compiler tools can be used, but helps to have a customizable syntax-coloring editor. lots of free ones around.
modeling app. there are some efforts to make a Torque-custom multiplatform modeler. But for now, LightWave seems the only route at the moment, with animation export support sounding like it is coming soon. LW 7.5 can be had for 395 as an edu version, or as an upgrade from ANY previous registered version (i.e., real owned serial number). a little pricey, but it's a serious app.
construction app. quiver has been mentioned, but hasn't really been explored yet -- but it's something being looked into still. radiant runs in software, not yet in hardware -- not sure what progress they are making. i believe there's been discussions about construction editor projects, but haven't heard much lately.
level design. built in. terrain terraforming, placing constructions & integrating indoor/outdoor spaces, objects, spawns/triggers, etc.
art app. there's a ton of free, shareware, and cheap retail paint apps. and lots of free textures out there already.
sound app. anything that creates WAVs. also some added support for Ogg has been passed around in the Resources section.
Of course, you can also grab a copy of Virtual PC and probably do pretty darn well on a modern mac.
d
#17
One follow-up question: Do you know if Carrara 2 would work as a 3d modeling app, as an alternative to Lightwave? None of us have .edu connections or upgrade paths, and it's over $2000 (I think) at full price.
www.eovia.com/index.htm?carrara/index_new.htm&0
Our 3d guy just ordered it, so it may be a moot point, but I'm wondering whether anyone here is familiar with it, or whether it looks to knowledgeable eyes that it might do the job. If so, I think we just might be in business!
Thanks,
Steve
05/25/2002 (8:23 am)
Thanks for the reply, David! Very helpful. I'm on the mac-radiant mailing list, and am trying to help keep the ball rolling there, although it's rolling very slowly right now.One follow-up question: Do you know if Carrara 2 would work as a 3d modeling app, as an alternative to Lightwave? None of us have .edu connections or upgrade paths, and it's over $2000 (I think) at full price.
www.eovia.com/index.htm?carrara/index_new.htm&0
Our 3d guy just ordered it, so it may be a moot point, but I'm wondering whether anyone here is familiar with it, or whether it looks to knowledgeable eyes that it might do the job. If so, I think we just might be in business!
Thanks,
Steve
#18
Personally, I'd look at the freeware stuff before I'd go for Carrera... With tons of additional programs, and a TON of persistance you can do game stuff... But with a $30 program like mesh maker, you can do that stuff for 1/10th the cost and 1/10th the effort. If Carrera is already ordered, make sure to save the reciept so you can send it back... Then do a search for the free applications while saving your pennies for something real like LightWave or Maya.
05/25/2002 (1:28 pm)
Carrerra is the bastard stepchild of MetaCreations. It's the next generation of an old program that was called Ray Dream Studio which I learned my 3D on originally. An interesting app, but one that is more successfull in causing frustration then productivity in the 3D environment. Consider that Carrera hasn't been updated in over two years, and that MetaCreations has basically dropped its 3D line entirely, and you've got a recipe for disaster. I jumped ship when I realized that RayDream/Carrera were useless for game purposes, as well as being the last moneymaker of a struggling company.Personally, I'd look at the freeware stuff before I'd go for Carrera... With tons of additional programs, and a TON of persistance you can do game stuff... But with a $30 program like mesh maker, you can do that stuff for 1/10th the cost and 1/10th the effort. If Carrera is already ordered, make sure to save the reciept so you can send it back... Then do a search for the free applications while saving your pennies for something real like LightWave or Maya.
#19
It IS whether there's an exporter/plug-in written for it, and whether it provides enough data to write such exporters.
As one of the Jr engineering staff way back on Infini-D, I'd like nothing more than to see Carerra succeed. My first attempts with the demo left me wanting more though... Interface was pretty, but clunky. Non intuitive all around.
Be better off with the free version(s) of Amapi in some cases, though again you'd need an exporter.
Lightwave is the only Mac exporter available at the moment, to the best of my knowledge. But, people who wanted to write new exporters for other apps, especially lower-priced, multi-platform modeler/anim apps, can probably talk to others working on plug-ins and get a lot of base/ground-work ahead of time.
d
05/26/2002 (9:17 am)
It's not whether >it< might do the job...It IS whether there's an exporter/plug-in written for it, and whether it provides enough data to write such exporters.
As one of the Jr engineering staff way back on Infini-D, I'd like nothing more than to see Carerra succeed. My first attempts with the demo left me wanting more though... Interface was pretty, but clunky. Non intuitive all around.
Be better off with the free version(s) of Amapi in some cases, though again you'd need an exporter.
Lightwave is the only Mac exporter available at the moment, to the best of my knowledge. But, people who wanted to write new exporters for other apps, especially lower-priced, multi-platform modeler/anim apps, can probably talk to others working on plug-ins and get a lot of base/ground-work ahead of time.
d
#20
Bill Griffin here. Long Time Mac user and absolute Mac 3D game dev crusader. I've been contacting everyone who has posted here..so any new folks stopping in please feel free to email me. I'm no torque expert (3 weeks on my machine) but I'll do all I can to be sure we eventually reach the same playing feild as our PC commrades. I've been going to what sites I can to try and call for support of Torque by fellow Mac gamers, and also made a request to Apple to put GG on their /games homepage. Torque is the big party, and I'm the guy passing out the Mac user tickets.
My background is graphics/pre-press/video/IT..and a healthy touch of fooling with tastey game engines when I run into them. As well schmoozing for two years at E3 trying to get a job and get someone to listen to my spiel about the perfect (as yet to be made) Mac game engine/toolset: iGame3D.
By the way..at E3 2001..an ill informed GG booth attendant said "NO V12 engine for Mac"..i'd written GG off at that point only to return a year later and find TORQUE FOR MAC! I'd now like to have his job please!
Speaking of which if GG folks read this: Please represent at Macworld NY..you will totaly turn the place upside down! If you need an Apple person to contact let me know...I'll put the word in! Hope to see you there so I can demo the tools for people and push this as far as it can go!
My Game
www.endtimegame.com
project :
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=project&page=view.project&qid=1208
is in pre-production at this time and rallying help and finding Mac tools is almost a full time job..in fact taking up this entire past week. So I will be very sympathetic to your plight as a brother Mac users and Fellow Newbies.
Details I'd like to share with you:
I'm using the Lightwave exporter...I'm sorry to say thats all thats available at this time. I'd prefer a C4d exporter..better would be a drag and drop or self contained converter from standard formats. There has to be a way. Cinema 4d has its own scripting language..so it shouldn't be a great leap to get something for that. If I could program I would be working on getting everyone great tools, but I'm not..so we need a Mac Messiah!
Everytime I've opened Quiver in the past I've been a bit confused...I'll have to dig down figure out what its for.
How to implement it. And I'll try to write up what to do with it.
I'm having trouble with textures and collision meshes. I don't know the exact steps that make it work and it would appear Photoshop 6 and 7 screw up the .png format for use in torque. One more roadblock I keep hitting at 70Mph. Its not that it doesn't Work at all..its just I'm missing a step or doing something wrong and can't figure out what.
Noone has mentioned Meshwork, which seems to be the defacto indie game 3D model and animation app. I find it so very ...something not good. But people can get work done in it so perhaps It's just my admitted ignorance. Perhaps together we can recruit the Meshwork author to do something about Torque. I just sent them email in fact.
I'm going to give Quiver a try tonight...as I've had someone test my innaporiate .dts interior with some negative feedback. I'll come back and let you know if I get anywhere.
Ok outa here back to the workshed.
06/01/2002 (9:11 pm)
Hello Everyone,Bill Griffin here. Long Time Mac user and absolute Mac 3D game dev crusader. I've been contacting everyone who has posted here..so any new folks stopping in please feel free to email me. I'm no torque expert (3 weeks on my machine) but I'll do all I can to be sure we eventually reach the same playing feild as our PC commrades. I've been going to what sites I can to try and call for support of Torque by fellow Mac gamers, and also made a request to Apple to put GG on their /games homepage. Torque is the big party, and I'm the guy passing out the Mac user tickets.
My background is graphics/pre-press/video/IT..and a healthy touch of fooling with tastey game engines when I run into them. As well schmoozing for two years at E3 trying to get a job and get someone to listen to my spiel about the perfect (as yet to be made) Mac game engine/toolset: iGame3D.
By the way..at E3 2001..an ill informed GG booth attendant said "NO V12 engine for Mac"..i'd written GG off at that point only to return a year later and find TORQUE FOR MAC! I'd now like to have his job please!
Speaking of which if GG folks read this: Please represent at Macworld NY..you will totaly turn the place upside down! If you need an Apple person to contact let me know...I'll put the word in! Hope to see you there so I can demo the tools for people and push this as far as it can go!
My Game
www.endtimegame.com
project :
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=project&page=view.project&qid=1208
is in pre-production at this time and rallying help and finding Mac tools is almost a full time job..in fact taking up this entire past week. So I will be very sympathetic to your plight as a brother Mac users and Fellow Newbies.
Details I'd like to share with you:
I'm using the Lightwave exporter...I'm sorry to say thats all thats available at this time. I'd prefer a C4d exporter..better would be a drag and drop or self contained converter from standard formats. There has to be a way. Cinema 4d has its own scripting language..so it shouldn't be a great leap to get something for that. If I could program I would be working on getting everyone great tools, but I'm not..so we need a Mac Messiah!
Everytime I've opened Quiver in the past I've been a bit confused...I'll have to dig down figure out what its for.
How to implement it. And I'll try to write up what to do with it.
I'm having trouble with textures and collision meshes. I don't know the exact steps that make it work and it would appear Photoshop 6 and 7 screw up the .png format for use in torque. One more roadblock I keep hitting at 70Mph. Its not that it doesn't Work at all..its just I'm missing a step or doing something wrong and can't figure out what.
Noone has mentioned Meshwork, which seems to be the defacto indie game 3D model and animation app. I find it so very ...something not good. But people can get work done in it so perhaps It's just my admitted ignorance. Perhaps together we can recruit the Meshwork author to do something about Torque. I just sent them email in fact.
I'm going to give Quiver a try tonight...as I've had someone test my innaporiate .dts interior with some negative feedback. I'll come back and let you know if I get anywhere.
Ok outa here back to the workshed.
Torque Owner David Chait
If people have particular products they like working with, feel free to post here, and I'll add them to the possible list -- but no promise that any given tool will be specifically supported. At the moment, we're trying to just get one modeler/animator and one mapper tool working with Torque on the Mac so that people can really work on stuff. We're also hopeful that developers out there will start to build more Mac tools now that there's an engine that really supports the platform.
I've also been considering putting together a modeler/animator app on the Mac (well, cross platform), but I need to determine requirements, and what people might be willing to pay, before I'd undertake such an effort directly...
Suggestions are always welcome!
-d