Musings on the Viability of "Japanese Style" RPGs
by John Bruce · in General Discussion · 07/22/2005 (3:48 pm) · 8 replies
If one peruses the Torque2D forums, they will notice a number of people who seem to be interested in developing RPGs with the system. Not surprising, really; I think almost every young game designer gets it into his or her head sooner or later to make an RPG or a game with RPG elements, probably because RPGs tend to be a popular genre for game designers to play. But in particular, a number of people seem interested not in "American-" or "PC-style" RPGs (think Baldur's Gate, Diablo, etc.) but in creating "Japanese-" or "console-style" RPGs. (think Final Fantasy, Lunar, Beath of Flams, etc.) Which brings up a question that's been burning in my mind for some time:
Is there a commercial market for these on the PC?
Please do not misunderstand my intent in this. I am not trying to discourage anyone who is working on such a project, if they read this. I love console-style RPGs, myself, regardless of platform, and I wish you all the best of luck. Should you come up with something good, you can bet I'll play it. And commercial publishing is hardly the end-all, be-all of game creation; creating the game should be the most important thing. I am asking more out of personal curiosity than anything, because I have seen so many people try to make console-style RPGs on the PC, and while most have failed for myriad internal reasons, I have always wondered what would happen if one succeeded.
Most console-style RPGs, in my experience, use a limited number of buttons, owing to their console-style nature, and direct the avatar's movement with WASD or the arrow keys instead of pointing-and-clicking with the mouse. It gives navigating the game a very different feel from PC-style RPGs, one that I personally believe has merit in the right games. But this could also seem like an awful waste on a system with a mouse and over 100 keys to choose from. PC gamers have a historic aversion to using "console-style" controls on the PC that I am concerned would turn many people off of the idea. I have heard it said before that people want to play Japanese/console-style RPGs on consoles and American/PC-style RPGs on PCs. Which leaves me wondering if there would be a sufficient market for any such games if they were ever released commercially. (I realize that controls are hardly the defining element of a console-style RPG, but it's the thing which first springs to my mind as I believe how the user interacts with a game has a profound impact on how the game plays.)
On the flip side, a great many people aspire to make these games, as I have said, and quality console-style RPGs are very popular with the right people, a group which seems to include many of the people around here. Given their seeming popularity with the kind of people who frequent indie gaming, would that tip the scales for a console-style RPG coming from an indie group? I suspect a number of the people who would be turned off by the console-style controls would be turned off anyway by the fact that it's an RPG or the idea of buying an indie game online. Joe Consumer at YahooGames is looking for something to pick up and play when the boss isn't looking, like Snood or Bejeweled, not an involving RPG game.
I realize this is primarily in the realm of speculation, and I have hardly begun to speculate on every aspect of this question, but I am curious to hear anyone else's speculations on the matter, since the genre is clearly one many people aspire to enter. Is the console-style RPG market limited to the actual consoles?
Is there a commercial market for these on the PC?
Please do not misunderstand my intent in this. I am not trying to discourage anyone who is working on such a project, if they read this. I love console-style RPGs, myself, regardless of platform, and I wish you all the best of luck. Should you come up with something good, you can bet I'll play it. And commercial publishing is hardly the end-all, be-all of game creation; creating the game should be the most important thing. I am asking more out of personal curiosity than anything, because I have seen so many people try to make console-style RPGs on the PC, and while most have failed for myriad internal reasons, I have always wondered what would happen if one succeeded.
Most console-style RPGs, in my experience, use a limited number of buttons, owing to their console-style nature, and direct the avatar's movement with WASD or the arrow keys instead of pointing-and-clicking with the mouse. It gives navigating the game a very different feel from PC-style RPGs, one that I personally believe has merit in the right games. But this could also seem like an awful waste on a system with a mouse and over 100 keys to choose from. PC gamers have a historic aversion to using "console-style" controls on the PC that I am concerned would turn many people off of the idea. I have heard it said before that people want to play Japanese/console-style RPGs on consoles and American/PC-style RPGs on PCs. Which leaves me wondering if there would be a sufficient market for any such games if they were ever released commercially. (I realize that controls are hardly the defining element of a console-style RPG, but it's the thing which first springs to my mind as I believe how the user interacts with a game has a profound impact on how the game plays.)
On the flip side, a great many people aspire to make these games, as I have said, and quality console-style RPGs are very popular with the right people, a group which seems to include many of the people around here. Given their seeming popularity with the kind of people who frequent indie gaming, would that tip the scales for a console-style RPG coming from an indie group? I suspect a number of the people who would be turned off by the console-style controls would be turned off anyway by the fact that it's an RPG or the idea of buying an indie game online. Joe Consumer at YahooGames is looking for something to pick up and play when the boss isn't looking, like Snood or Bejeweled, not an involving RPG game.
I realize this is primarily in the realm of speculation, and I have hardly begun to speculate on every aspect of this question, but I am curious to hear anyone else's speculations on the matter, since the genre is clearly one many people aspire to enter. Is the console-style RPG market limited to the actual consoles?
#2
07/22/2005 (7:04 pm)
I suppose I should clarify and say that when I wrote this, I was thinking of 2D games, if only because this started in the Torque2D forums, and also because I felt a 2D game would face even greater hurdles than a 3D game. But I suppose the question applies to 3D games as well.
#3
That game would be a good measure. Unfortunately, it seemed that the dread "Ion Fallout" might have clouded its sales, but generally it was critically well recieved. And looked very, very good for its age.
07/22/2005 (8:42 pm)
Amazing. I talked the same question over with a friend at work today. (Background : He is a PS* nut, I'm a PC bigot). I was describing Anachronox, and why I thought it was completely different and entertaining, and how I'd love to go down that road.That game would be a good measure. Unfortunately, it seemed that the dread "Ion Fallout" might have clouded its sales, but generally it was critically well recieved. And looked very, very good for its age.
#4
My foundation for this opinion is a growing love for nostalgia among many gamers. They like the old time RPGs but done in an updated fashion. Throw in a bit more eye candy, a healthy sprinkling of modern storytelling, and sprinkle liberally with a subtle upgrade in player selection thanks to an increased amount of storage and memory in comparrison to days gone by and I think there is a market aching for the old school to be reborn. Havent seen this done in practice myself, but I think that it is there.
In the very least I know several people who would buy into it wholely.
07/23/2005 (7:57 am)
I do not think console style RPGs are limited to said consoles.My foundation for this opinion is a growing love for nostalgia among many gamers. They like the old time RPGs but done in an updated fashion. Throw in a bit more eye candy, a healthy sprinkling of modern storytelling, and sprinkle liberally with a subtle upgrade in player selection thanks to an increased amount of storage and memory in comparrison to days gone by and I think there is a market aching for the old school to be reborn. Havent seen this done in practice myself, but I think that it is there.
In the very least I know several people who would buy into it wholely.
#5
07/23/2005 (9:08 am)
The Final Fantasies for the PC did rather well, and Septerra Core was a fun PC RPG that could have used better control. I think something like Tales of Symphonia could be done rather well on T2D, and as long as the system is tight and the visuals match the styling of the game, you could do it. Now, combining niche JRPG titles like Thousands Arms will split your audience quite a bit as you'll be targeting a niche within a niche. Unfortunately, the assets and balancing required for a RPG are rather large. Programming the base systems is actually much easier than balancing the systems...and the artwork is a huge task. Especially in today's lush RPG world. 
#6
07/23/2005 (11:48 am)
Hmmm 2d games i think are... harder to look nicer on a PC, due to it's scalable graphics. like FF7 had prerendered 2d backdrops specially made for tv resolution, but on the PC it looked like crap cause it was pixaleted. But if you with the intetion of a PC port.... it should look just fine. So basically i'd say a PC 2d RPG would only be a bad idea if the graphics were orignally designed for a smaller resolution. 2d graphics tend to look really nice, cause every pixel is in its place resulting in just the level of detail you want.
#7
It's been very enlightening reading everyone's thoughts, and I now agree that it's not that people would be turned off of the idea of playing a console-style RPG on the PC as much as it is that it simply hasn't been done much; as people have already said, the most notable attempts at this didn't do well, either because of gameplay issues (i.e. Septerra Core, which I maintain is a good game beneath the problems) or their publisher dying spectacularly. (i.e. Anachronox) The PC releases of the early 3D Final Fantasies did indeed do quite well on the PC, especially with the fans who had yet to let go of their SNESes and move to the PSX back then, (like yours truly) which does indeed suggest that it is not for a lack of market that this genre is not often seen on the PC. After all, most people who play such games on a console also own a PC. I don't even think it is the control scheme, really, as plenty of modern RPGs (World of Warcraft comes to mind) use the keyboard for navigation to free up the mouse for other purposes.
David probably hit the nail on the head by saying that most people simply don't realize the kind of effort, time, and content that must go into creating and balancing an RPG. I would conjecture that most companies don't want to take the risk of devoting that many resources to something with a perceived limited appeal when a quick knockoff shooter will sell much better at Wal-Mart. Septerra Core and Anachronox were works of love, and the FFs were of course ports of existing content that had already been developed and balanced for the console version. Which I guess makes it both ideal and intimidating for indie development. Ideal because it's something the "big boys" aren't likely to do on their own, but intimidating because, as David said, it takes a frightening amount of content and balancing to make an RPG. I've watched enough young RPG dreams die to know it's not a challenge I relish tackling anytime soon.
Well, in any case, at least it's good to know it's not because there's no market for the stuff! Just no supplier...
07/26/2005 (1:34 pm)
Yeah, Anachronox never got the respect it deserved, IMHO. And you have a goot point that Anachronox offered a good compromise between PC-style and console-style controls with its 3D mouse cursor. Of course, the mouse cursor was also a major character in the story, but that's just Anachronox being- Anachronox. I'm so glad the creators took the time to support it as best they could even after Ion went kaboomsky, since otherwise we couldn't even play it on modern operating systems! ;_; And that would be a true loss to humanity.It's been very enlightening reading everyone's thoughts, and I now agree that it's not that people would be turned off of the idea of playing a console-style RPG on the PC as much as it is that it simply hasn't been done much; as people have already said, the most notable attempts at this didn't do well, either because of gameplay issues (i.e. Septerra Core, which I maintain is a good game beneath the problems) or their publisher dying spectacularly. (i.e. Anachronox) The PC releases of the early 3D Final Fantasies did indeed do quite well on the PC, especially with the fans who had yet to let go of their SNESes and move to the PSX back then, (like yours truly) which does indeed suggest that it is not for a lack of market that this genre is not often seen on the PC. After all, most people who play such games on a console also own a PC. I don't even think it is the control scheme, really, as plenty of modern RPGs (World of Warcraft comes to mind) use the keyboard for navigation to free up the mouse for other purposes.
David probably hit the nail on the head by saying that most people simply don't realize the kind of effort, time, and content that must go into creating and balancing an RPG. I would conjecture that most companies don't want to take the risk of devoting that many resources to something with a perceived limited appeal when a quick knockoff shooter will sell much better at Wal-Mart. Septerra Core and Anachronox were works of love, and the FFs were of course ports of existing content that had already been developed and balanced for the console version. Which I guess makes it both ideal and intimidating for indie development. Ideal because it's something the "big boys" aren't likely to do on their own, but intimidating because, as David said, it takes a frightening amount of content and balancing to make an RPG. I've watched enough young RPG dreams die to know it's not a challenge I relish tackling anytime soon.
Well, in any case, at least it's good to know it's not because there's no market for the stuff! Just no supplier...
#8
In response to the statement that it seems like usage of only a few keys seems like a waste (and I know the OP wasn't bashing it), I personally think it doesn't matter how few keys a game uses; it's still all about gameplay and fun factor.
I mostly play RPGs, and a few fighters and FPSes. Whenever I play UT, I only use my mouse, the two buttons, the wheel, directional keys, voice command (when playing with bots), title screen (for pausing) and jump. Counting the mouse as a button, that's only 11 keys I use for UT (though I sometimes use others, I usually only use those rarely).
The RPG I have in mind would consist of directional keys, an "ok" button, a cancel button, menu button and run button. Basically 3 less keys than I use for UT.
The above is basically my view on the "number of keys" statement; not intended to bash the OP.
I think most console-style RPGs stray away from the PC for a few reasons. First, as mentioned, less keys is more suitable to the console, due to number of buttons. Second, console-style RPGs aren't meant for modding in mind, so they may stay away from PC there. Third, on a console, the designers don't have to worry about requirements to the same degree; once the game is on the console and it works, it should generally work for all consoles of the same type.
Of course, that's just my take on why there are few console style RPGs on PC; one advantage for PC is that most everyone has PC as opposed to the individual consoles. I plan on making a PC RPG, and trying to keep the requirements relatively low. That way it should be more accessible for people.
That's my take on this.
07/26/2005 (7:36 pm)
I, too, am trying to make a console-style RPG with TGE.In response to the statement that it seems like usage of only a few keys seems like a waste (and I know the OP wasn't bashing it), I personally think it doesn't matter how few keys a game uses; it's still all about gameplay and fun factor.
I mostly play RPGs, and a few fighters and FPSes. Whenever I play UT, I only use my mouse, the two buttons, the wheel, directional keys, voice command (when playing with bots), title screen (for pausing) and jump. Counting the mouse as a button, that's only 11 keys I use for UT (though I sometimes use others, I usually only use those rarely).
The RPG I have in mind would consist of directional keys, an "ok" button, a cancel button, menu button and run button. Basically 3 less keys than I use for UT.
The above is basically my view on the "number of keys" statement; not intended to bash the OP.
I think most console-style RPGs stray away from the PC for a few reasons. First, as mentioned, less keys is more suitable to the console, due to number of buttons. Second, console-style RPGs aren't meant for modding in mind, so they may stay away from PC there. Third, on a console, the designers don't have to worry about requirements to the same degree; once the game is on the console and it works, it should generally work for all consoles of the same type.
Of course, that's just my take on why there are few console style RPGs on PC; one advantage for PC is that most everyone has PC as opposed to the individual consoles. I plan on making a PC RPG, and trying to keep the requirements relatively low. That way it should be more accessible for people.
That's my take on this.
Torque Owner Cinder Games
I would play any of the PS2 RPGs i have on the computer if i could. not for anything else other then higher resolution. i'd still use my controller.