T2D : Hovering over the purchase button

#1 T2D comes with 2 demos. One is a side scrolling shooter, and the other is a fish screen-saver-esque demo. Source code is provided for both of these when you purchase T2D.

As more demos are released, it's likely that the source for those will also be bundled with T2D and available to licensed owners.

Torque Script is quite easy to get the hang of. I don't really have any C++ knowledge either, although I have dabbled with various other languages and written applications in VB, Pascal, Cobol, dBase, etc. If you have a basic programming background, you should be OK.

As far as a try before you buy version of T2D, I'd say that was pretty unlikely. Just about all of T2Ds power is realised through scripting, so to allow people to create their own scripts and run them on the demo of T2D would pretty much be the same as just handing out T2D for free.

#2 Thanks Philip,
I downloaded the HelloAstar example which provides the scripts and it looks pretty straightforward. Without a demo to play with commented example scripts would be very helpful even without the engine.
I'll mull it over a bit more.

#3 With the exception of a couple of small bits of code, that A* example is standard Torque Script, with very little T2D specific stuff.

If you wanted to get a handle on scripting in general, you can download the TGE demo. That will allow you to script whatever you like.

#4 I downloaded the TGE demo but must be missing something.
I have 2 walkthroughs, TGEDemo and WarZone, rather than a functional demo.

#5 I think TGEDemo is the one you want. Have a nosey around the folders and you should spot the .cs files. These are the script files that you can monkey about with. You can also bring up the various editors with F10 to F12 (I think).

I'm not too sure of the specifics, as thinking in 3D makes my brain hurt :) That's why I opted for T2D...

#6 Here is the first commercial game released in T2D. There are many others in the works... the Torque 2D Private forums have bundles of posts, so when you purchase Torque 2D you'll get access to all of that :) The community is also very good at answering questions, usually you'll get an answer within an hour or two.

#7 Hi Matthew, I downloaded and played the demo. Looks quite professional but didn't really sell me on the potential of B2D.
The results I've seen with T2D so far (the game and the 2 tech demos) are very similar to results possible in BlitzMax. What is drawing me more to T2D is the 'package' concept with the included editors.
I'm never happy purchasing a product so I can access a private area which will then show me the potential and provide assistance. It's like buying a car but the salesman doens't let you open the door and get in even.
I guess I'm going to stick to what I know with the Blitz family ans possibly Cobra.
P.S. Philip, thanks for the TGE suggestion I looked at it and, without any other reference, it looks a bit fiddly. I'm sure I'm wrong but without a demo I don't think anybody will convince me otherwise.
Thanks for all the responses.

#8 I understand what you mean, though private areas are that, "private." If they let you access that without purchasing the engine then why would they be selling anything.

Here is a simple demo I made back in the first couple weeks of Torque 2D that shows off some of the physics.

Best of luck with Blitz. A shame you aren't giving the Torque family a try since there is quite a lot of power (more than other engines priced within the same range), but your choice. If you have any further questions feel free to ask.

#9 Thanks Matthew.
I saw the physics demo a couple of weeks ago and it was one of the more impressive shows of T2D 'power'. I don't think anybody can argue with the price for what you get (TGE price *really* surprised me) but it's still more than I want to wager on whether I'll enjoy it. I'll keep an eye out for the official release and see whether GG provide a bit more information.
Thanks again for your responses.

#10 Sure, also if you have any questions on how the scripting works to a limited point I could give you an idea. It uses C style syntax so its like most languages out there... (like C++, Javascript, PHP etc ...).

#11 Btw here is some info on what is being worked on for T2D

Melv's Plan
Jjustin's Plan
my plan

#12 The primary difference that you have between BlitzMax and T2D is that BlitzMax is a language and T2D is an engine. You will still have to code your engine from the ground up in BlitzMax. T2D has a huge amount of pre-built functionality.

They're both great, but they're two very different products.

EDIT: Clarification.

#13 A very good point by David

#14 That is a very good point.
At the moment, with BlitzMax, I could write my own modules in Blitzmax code for any functions I need. If I *really* wanted to I could access the OpenGL layer.
I'm guessing that, with T2D, I'm limited to the scripting the available engine unless you extend it with C++ code.
From other posts, people have stated that T2D includes everything you'd need for most games. Without a demo I can't verify that and I wouldn't be able to write the C++ code to provide missing functionality. (basically, why I've always opted for 'basic' derivatives).
Another guess is that, in the private forums, people are extending T2D functionality with C++ code for anything that might be missing.
Without knowing what's in the private forums I'm stuck again.
I have no doubt that T2D is fantastic and I don't want to make excuses for not buying it (tbh

#15 P.S. What's the easiest way to signin to this forum as I have to view my own profile which has a signin button and can I edit my posts.

#16

Quote:At the moment, with BlitzMax, I could write my own modules in Blitzmax code for any functions I need. If I *really* wanted to I could access the OpenGL layer.
I'm guessing that, with T2D, I'm limited to the scripting the available engine unless you extend it with C++ code.

If you write your entire engine in BlitzMax (hereafter referred to a BM), then your extensions will probably be in BM. But, if you chose to use LUA for your scripting engine, then it would be similar to the structure of TGE (C++ core source and TorqueScript scripting language). You can extend BM with other languages (and the LUA module is included out of the box), but one of the "selling points" was the ability to compile new BM modules in BM itself, utilizing an iterative language approach (it's not a new concept at all, but a shiny one).

Since the core engine is written in C++ with the hooks into the functionality written in TorqueScript, you're correct in your evaluation that any core updates would be written in C++ and then functional hooks added to TorqueScript. It's your use of limitations which gives me pause as the limitations aren't imposed so much by the engine source as by the one who has access to the engine source. Now, if you didn't have access to the source, you would be working within a frame limited by the engine itself. From an engine standpoint, there are things that T2D does not do out of the box, but these "limitations" are removed by having access to the source to extend the engine in any way you like. This lack of limitations is however narrowed if a developer with no C++ experience (as that is what the engine is written in) is utilizing the engine. I say narrowed rather than defined simply because the user still has the ability to learn C++ and perform the modifications.

If the engine was a finite system, without source modification possibilities, then the limitations would be inherent in the engine itself (which would not stop TorqueScript programmers from getting around the limitations; StarCraft was never meant to be used as a RPG engine with save states, and yet a group of modders went to work creating a modification which turned it into just that).

#17

Quote:From other posts, people have stated that T2D includes everything you'd need for most games. Without a demo I can't verify that and I wouldn't be able to write the C++ code to provide missing functionality. (basically, why I've always opted for 'basic' derivatives).
Another guess is that, in the private forums, people are extending T2D functionality with C++ code for anything that might be missing.

Aside from isometric tiling, it's pretty spot on. But it sounds like you also do not wish to learn C++ (which is a good thing to know as learning a language, an engine, and attempting to make a game all at the same time is an almost sure way to kill your project or your team). As there are a lot of C++ coders among the ranks here at GG (many of us come from a C/C++/Java tradition, and a number of us have been using Torque or other C/C++ engines for years.

So, here's my advice. Create a basic matrix of how long it will take you to create an engine with the functionality you need for your game. First, put the core engine functionality along the top and the T2D featureset along the side. Now, start checking off features. This will not only show you an extremely basic graphical representation of what your game needs, but it will show you what T2D already supplies (only check things you KNOW, not things you think; the T2D product page is very helpful here, as are the demos). But you now also have a checklist (of all the core items that you need) of things that you will have to create from scratch in BlitzMax.

Now that you've done that, take your basic estimate of what you need to have done. Pick up a C++ text (Beginning C++ by Ivor Horton or Michael Prata's ANSI C++ Primer Plus are good starting points, though rather thick). Find a page of solid text. Get a stopwatch and time yourself. Don't speed-read. Read for content and deep learning. Take time to synthesize a what you're reading. Now, take the time that it took you to read that page and multiply it by the number of pages in the book. This will give you a rough estimate of the time needed to read the text. Triple it and you'll see an estimate of how long it will take you to read and utilize it (remember that most programs within the text will compile unless typographical errors are present and that you won't learn very much from those...but you will from any lessons at the end of chapters that you have to do on your own). That's a good estimate of base language acquisition. It doesn't mean you'll be proficient in C++, but it means that you won't be completely lost.

Now, you have a basic framework from which to determine how precious your time is. Look at the future as well as the present need to finish a singular game. Will BlitzMax accomodate everything you want to do in the future? Will you have to completely rewrite your engine from the ground up with BlitzMax. Do you wish to utilize C/C++ engines in the future? There are a million questions to ask, but the answers are specific to you.

#18

Quote:Without knowing what's in the private forums I'm stuck again.

This is understandable, but there's little that can be done about it. You can ask about features in the public spaces, and we will try to give you (wordy in my case) answers.

Quote:I have no doubt that T2D is fantastic and I don't want to make excuses for not buying it (tbh 65ish isn't a huge amount for me) but there are too many questions which I can't answer for myself.
The demos (fish-bowl and Shooter), the physics demo mentioned above and the collision avis go some way to show what can be done. What they don't show is what *can't* be done and whether it's a product I'd enjoy.

I have yet to see an engine with full source code have a demo of what cannot be done with it. BlitzMax and Torque are extensible language/engines precisely because they give you the means to extend them. It doesn't mean that everyone will be able to extend them, however. That is something that people often fail to realize.

As to the enjoyment of a product, that's a very subjective delimiter. I'm not sure anyone can answer that but you. There are parts of T2D that you may love and parts you hate. Same with BM. I enjoy both, so I'm not a very good point of reference on the issue.

Quote:I'll probably bite the bullet over the next couple of days and get T2D anyway as hovering over that 'buy now' button is becoming tedious. It's just a shame that GG are not making it as easy as possible to make that decision.

Considering the confusion over what entails an engine or a language or a language extension which facilitates engine development, I think GG is doing a pretty good job. There's gaps that need to be filled, but they are apparent in every company I've ever dealt with.

What exactly would make it easier and not be against the license? Is it a marketing issue? Is it a basic feature "how-to" issue (which would be extremely difficult as explaining them in such a document would be somewhat like invalidating the licensing scheme for T2D source code)? What would help you decide on a purchase--aside from hover fatigue?

Quote:P.S. What's the easiest way to signin to this forum as I have to view my own profile which has a signin button and can I edit my posts.

Up at the top-right of the page, you should see a login/register link. Click it and log in (accept the cookie). Then it will turn into a profile link. To edit your posts, find the post and click the little pad and paper icon ().

Okay. I wrote a whole bunch more than I meant to. Sorry for the wordiness, but I get that way sometimes. Take what's relevant. Discount the rest.

EDIT: parenthesis

#19 Thanks David,
The login is so obvous now it's embarrassing.
I think you've made my mind up.
I don't know what this product will/can do for me personally.
I was going to buy it purely for the sake of it but your considered response has made me believe it's not something I would find fun and saved me $100.
Thanks (once more) to everybody that responded.

#20 Depending on what your trying to create, its very possible you won't have to modify the source :)