When Dreams are too Fat to Fly...
by Bryan Edds · in General Discussion · 06/24/2005 (11:36 pm) · 28 replies
I believe that one of the biggest hurdles to any indie project is over-ambitious scope. This includes, of course, some of my (very) shelved projects, so I'm not casting any first stones.
Well, here's the scenario I'm pretty sure most of you will recognize -
Kid A researches all the game engines available to make a game, and decides on Torque (as he probably should). Then he presents that idea for his game on the GG forums (as he also probably should). But the problem is that the project is just too ambitious. I'm not going to say it's impossible (since nothing is impossible), but it's highly improbable. Let's say kid A's project had about a 1 in 100,000,000 chance of succeeding (which is about the probability of hitting a ten million dollar lottery - which is probably the only way kid A could possibly fund his games development).
Knowing the probability of the project's success as slim, experienced developers will see the project as a bad investment of time and whatever resources put into it. Unless the entire project is worth trying on a purely educational level (as in, educational for the developer(s)), how could the ROI of spending multiple years in development be positive when the odds are so poor? It really cannot be worth it, and the project is therefore a bad investment if the goal is completion.
Any caring developer would have a natural urge to dissuade kid A from attemping such a project. But should this be done?
Well, that all depends on kid A's response to such a critique. Will he choose to respond constructively, or unconstructively? This depends on two things - kid A's attitude and the way the criticism is delivered to kid A.
We obviously have no control over kid A's attitude, so we'll assume that his attitude allows him to constructively use criticism if it is delvered correctly. The question, then, is what are the most general effective way (principles) to give feedback to over-scoped projects that will be used constructively?
There are variations from person to person, but I believe that some approaches are more effective in general than others. If persuasion is an art (and truly it is), then what ofi dissuasion? Can we not find out and use the art of dissuasion to help people like kid A to be more realistic in their goals? I believe so. Would not the art of dissuation closely mirror that of persuasion? I believe this as well.
My topic questions are - what is the art of dissuasion and its principles? What can experienced developers do to masterfully use this art to help the open-minded kid A to scale down?
I think these are good questions worthy of discussion.
Well, here's the scenario I'm pretty sure most of you will recognize -
Kid A researches all the game engines available to make a game, and decides on Torque (as he probably should). Then he presents that idea for his game on the GG forums (as he also probably should). But the problem is that the project is just too ambitious. I'm not going to say it's impossible (since nothing is impossible), but it's highly improbable. Let's say kid A's project had about a 1 in 100,000,000 chance of succeeding (which is about the probability of hitting a ten million dollar lottery - which is probably the only way kid A could possibly fund his games development).
Knowing the probability of the project's success as slim, experienced developers will see the project as a bad investment of time and whatever resources put into it. Unless the entire project is worth trying on a purely educational level (as in, educational for the developer(s)), how could the ROI of spending multiple years in development be positive when the odds are so poor? It really cannot be worth it, and the project is therefore a bad investment if the goal is completion.
Any caring developer would have a natural urge to dissuade kid A from attemping such a project. But should this be done?
Well, that all depends on kid A's response to such a critique. Will he choose to respond constructively, or unconstructively? This depends on two things - kid A's attitude and the way the criticism is delivered to kid A.
We obviously have no control over kid A's attitude, so we'll assume that his attitude allows him to constructively use criticism if it is delvered correctly. The question, then, is what are the most general effective way (principles) to give feedback to over-scoped projects that will be used constructively?
There are variations from person to person, but I believe that some approaches are more effective in general than others. If persuasion is an art (and truly it is), then what ofi dissuasion? Can we not find out and use the art of dissuasion to help people like kid A to be more realistic in their goals? I believe so. Would not the art of dissuation closely mirror that of persuasion? I believe this as well.
My topic questions are - what is the art of dissuasion and its principles? What can experienced developers do to masterfully use this art to help the open-minded kid A to scale down?
I think these are good questions worthy of discussion.
#22
"The advice best received is given by the people most respected."
- Mathew Fairfax
"Some of the best education comes from failing miserably... it's the cruel way of the world."
- Josh Ritter
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
06/28/2005 (5:31 am)
Well. It comes down to this I guess:"The advice best received is given by the people most respected."
- Mathew Fairfax
"Some of the best education comes from failing miserably... it's the cruel way of the world."
- Josh Ritter
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
#23
If all you are doing is satisfying your own intellectual curiosity (and in fact, that was how Void War started!), then you are right. Your aspirations can be achieved without ever getting past that 20% stage (the illusory "almost done" point where suddenly progress slows WAAAY down and people lose interest because you are down to difficult detail work).
But that's like planning a trip to Disneyland, and then stopping an hour down the road and saying, "Okay, good enough, time to go back home. We'll try it again next year and see if we get any further." There's just so much more in store at the end of the road - even if you aren't super-successful at it the first time out. There are opportunities that just open up --- not all of them great, and even the good ones don't always pan out --- but it's there.
06/28/2005 (3:29 pm)
I posted a blog today that I think was in part motivated by this thread.If all you are doing is satisfying your own intellectual curiosity (and in fact, that was how Void War started!), then you are right. Your aspirations can be achieved without ever getting past that 20% stage (the illusory "almost done" point where suddenly progress slows WAAAY down and people lose interest because you are down to difficult detail work).
But that's like planning a trip to Disneyland, and then stopping an hour down the road and saying, "Okay, good enough, time to go back home. We'll try it again next year and see if we get any further." There's just so much more in store at the end of the road - even if you aren't super-successful at it the first time out. There are opportunities that just open up --- not all of them great, and even the good ones don't always pan out --- but it's there.
#24
06/28/2005 (5:46 pm)
Failure is success stopped short.
#25
06/29/2005 (4:29 am)
You only fail if you give up 
#26
06/29/2005 (5:48 am)
And may the force be with you
#27
- Ronixus
06/29/2005 (7:58 am)
Failure applies to bad programs. Defeat applies to a lost battle. If you consistently battle it out in persuit of a good program, there's no room left for defeat or failure.- Ronixus
#28
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
CONSULT, v.i. To seek another's disapproval of a course already decided on.
SUCCESS, n. The one unpardonable sin against one's fellows.
06/29/2005 (10:39 am)
ADAGE, n. Boned wisdom for weak teeth.ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
CONSULT, v.i. To seek another's disapproval of a course already decided on.
SUCCESS, n. The one unpardonable sin against one's fellows.
Torque Owner Chris Labombard
Premium Preferred
Lack of reference material? So you ARE NOT on the internet typing this ?
Finishing a game is very important. It gives you a sense of completion. A sense of accomplishment and helps fuel your motivation to progress with another game. It also shows you the end of the road. 80% of your efforts is finishing the last 20% of the game... If you consistently cut out after it's 80% finished, you didn't learn even half of what you could have.
Try and get a job in the industry with 10 80% complete projects... The guy who has 1 or 2 completed ones overshadows you.