When Dreams are too Fat to Fly...

#1 I'm definately not the most experienced person to answer this... so just going to share some thoughts... just need to take things one step at a time, if your watching a few steps up you may trip on the one your on :)

#2 You can only be a signpost. It's up to the person in question to follow the path you lay out for them. More often than not, people need to make their own mistakes and arrive at their own conclusions, even if what they conclude is exactly what you've been saying all along.

Consider: I could contest that the art of persuasion is in fact unworthy of discussion, and that this is an entirely pointless thread, because it's not really related to the goal of producing a game, and thus only adds noise to an already noisy medium. I might contend that instead of posting constantly to forums, you rip out your Internet connection, find your favourite game idea, and start hacking away, as you are likely to get a whole lot more done.

Would you believe me and take my advice, or would you reject it? What if I told you that I used to procrastinate constantly, then after much banging of head on walls, arrived at the conclusion that I used most of the minutes in the day forum-posting instead of just getting on with the job - would you believe me then?

Chances are that you'd think I was full of it (and you'd be mostly correct). You would continue said behaviour until you grew so frustrated with not getting anything done, that you scrutinised your time to see what you were doing wrong. At that point, you might be more objective on how useful your day's activities had been in pushing you towards the goal of producing a game. You might ask yourself, "How much value did I really get out of that interesting, but ultimately pointless, discussion about persuading other people to get on with their ideas? Could I have, for instance, spent that time getting something done, rather than persuading others to try?"

You conclude that discussion only gets so much done, and it's now time to do some real work instead. The signpost was there all along, you realise, but you had to work it out for yourself before you could understand what it represented.

It's the same situation with these kids trying to make impossible games. The best you can do is give them a signpost, watch them reject your advice, and let them fail for themselves. Ultimately they will follow your lead and learn to scale back their ideas, or blithely continue battering their head against a wall. The choice is theirs.

Cheers,
Paul.

#3

Quote:Consider: I could contest that the art of persuasion is in fact unworthy of discussion, and that this is an entirely pointless thread, because it's not really related to the goal of producing a game, and thus only adds noise to an already noisy medium. I might contend that instead of posting constantly to forums, you rip out your Internet connection, find your favourite game idea, and start hacking away, as you are likely to get a whole lot more done.

Here's what I would do (and what I do whenever I consider any sort of advice) -

If the advice is delivered in a reasonable way, I would examine my personal values. I would ask myself; do I personally value talking on the forums as something worthwhile to do for its own sake? Is making a game the only reason I am posting on the forums? If so, then are my posts helping that goal? If I'm not posting on the forums just to help me make a game (some other reason such as for the sheer intellectual stimulation of it), then I would have to ultimately ignore your advice, albeit in a friendly way.

If the advice was not delivered in a reasonable way (say it was mean-sprited or impolite) I would concentrate my post on deefeating the poster's premise for being mean-sprited or impolite while ignoring the advice OR I would just ignore the whole post.

So, if the post is not mean-spirited of whatever, for me it would come down to an analysis of my personal values - do I find more value in ignoring the advice, or do I, after considering the advice, find more value in following it?

So it's all a subjective process. Which brings us back to whether or not kid A will heed his advice. Assuming his thought process is similar to mine, the above would be the process of reaction that would take place. He would ask himself if, given the new knowledge that he is presented, is credible. If he finds the advice credible, he will reevaluate his value to keep truding on with the project. Whether he does or not is up to his own personal values.

So, there are three requirements that would make the advice yeild the desired results for me personally - that 1) I find the data that premise the argument credible, 2) I find the argument presented to be in good faith, and, 3) after agreeing with the argument, that my I find more value in halting the project to do a smaller one than to keep on with it.

Often the dissuasive arguments are lacking in requirements 1 and / or 2. Often the argument is either poorly made (usually because its too much of a bother to keep making the same argument over and over again because of the sheer need to do it all the time) or the argument invovles some form of tough-love. By tough-love, I mean the arguer is talking to kid A as if kid A were a younger version of the arguer. You know how you would talk to yourself if you could go back to when you were younger and were about to make a bad decision - you probably wouldn't be kind at all! Tough-love sometimes work with people you know intimately (like your past self), but it almost never works with strangers. So tough-love turns into an argument that looks mean sprited and would get ignore by someone like myself if the arguer was a stranger to me.

So yeah, that's what I've got so far. An excellant argumentative mechanic Paul, and very enlightening for this discussion!

#4 If really want to learn about the art of persuasion, read "How To Win Friends And Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. I've heard nothing but winning reviews of it.

In the interest of keeping this brief, I'll summarise with a cliche, but nonetheless proven adage: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. No matter whether you've made a persuasive argument or not, the choice to scale back is still theirs to make. Kids will need to make mistakes of their own accord; some will learn, some won't. The ones that do will be the next generation of game developers to make something of themselves.

The rest will give up or keep on dreaming the dream.

Cheers,
Paul.

#5 The advice best received is given by the people most respected.

#6 Some of the best education comes from failing miserably... it's the cruel way of the world.

-Josh RItter
Prairie Games

#7 How many times did Edison fail making a light bulb?

#8 3007 times.

I think... I'll check

#9 Good questions...I was in this same situation back about a year ago when I wanted to make a game called Project Nemesis. It was basically a survival horror game that would be easy to do once you had the engine worked out the way you wanted, but until then it would be pretty hard for someone just beginning. I posted about if people thought it was a good idea, if it was possible, what they thought about me doing it, etc. Well, they were pretty nice to me. They told me it sounded like a great game and they thought I should make it but not at this time. They used constructive critisism which also helped. I decided to put it on hold and it still is on hold. I might start over on it after I finish my current projects. Back then I knew nothing about 3D art and I didn't know where to begin on the project. I knew nothing about textures, what prerendered and real-time meant, what a dts/dif file was, and I felt I was hopeless, but I knew that all the game designers that are my role-models had to start somewhere. I focused in 3D art and now I feel I can come up with some cool stuff if I really apply myself. Also, I originally wanted to make a 100+ hour game with breathtaking graphics and a great storyline. Back then I didn't know what a game engine was and I thought I could do it in Gmax! lol! That project is on hold until I'm older...hehehe.

I've realized my limits with Torque by about now. I now know what I want to do, when to start doing things, and what to use. I now feel I can finally make a decent game and I think everyone will like it. I think I owe it all to constructive critisism and the people on those forums.

Anyway, what I would recommend for young kids who want to start making games and know nothing of programming, modeling, or textures would have to be RPG Maker. I think that is a great place for kids to start off on. That way devs don't have to waist their time on a project that will probably never get into motion.

#10 I wish I'd learn to listen to that inner voice that keeps telling me my current project is just too dang big. But I seem to have selective amnesia about that kind of thing.

The voices of experience - those who have produced SHIPPED titles - almost all started with tiny "practice" games (that were usually clones of really simple, older arcade-style games). That, or they have worked on games for larger, commercial studios. But who wants to listen to them?

I think part of the problem is that a gamer today wanting to take a stab at developing games has had almost no exposure to anything smaller than a multimillion-dollar, A-level retail game for the consoles. That defines their world. Those were the games that inspired them, and starting at anything less than that is completely unappealing.

I don't know the answer. I don't want to discourage these guys either. But the thing is, 19 out of 20 are going to dabble in it, realize how hard it is, and then quit. It's the way of things. I would like to help the 1 in 20 who might keep going if encouraged and shown that there is really a light at the end of the tunnel, and that a game doesn't have to stomp Halo 2 into the ground to be good and fun.

#11 I'm not sure why so many people think that unless a game gets finished, it was a waste of time. When I was a teenager, I started my own impossibly large game project. I didn't have anywhere close to the experience necessary to get the project too far...but I did learn a bunch about game development. I also learned, eventually, that the reason I had wanted to make a game was that I was interested in videogames and I wanted to make friends who shared that interest--and I did!

I think it *is* important to let first-time developers know that they can't really count on finishing whatever massive project they're working on. But I think an unfortunate attitude has developed here: the attitude that unless you finish a game, working on it wasn't fun...and I don't think that's the case at all.

#12

Quote:I'm not sure why so many people think that unless a game gets finished, it was a waste of time

It is good as a learning experience, and it is good that you see it that way. The 'attitude' of not shipping be a waste is also one of wanting to encourage learning. I would say that 80% of the really important learning about game development takes place in the time that one has to put into making the game a 'shippable' product.

I would not say that not shipping was a waste of time.. it is just (in my opinion) not the best use of anyones time.

#13

Quote:No, it will never work. Your project is too big, and you have no experience. It will never see the light of day. I recommend you do something like tetris.

Read the above. Would anybody in their right mind follow that advice? There is no useful information in there. In effect, I'm asking you to trust me in saying that the project will never work, in a condescending manner, without giving any useful information.

Quote:Sure, you want to make Halo 3? Well, game development begins with planning. How much money do you think it will take? Halo 2 took about 10 million or so. How will you convince Xbox to carry your game? How will you dodge the copyright issues? Who will you get to work on the project and how long do you think it will take them to do it?....

The above is slightly less confrontational, and it makes the "kid" (I've seen grown people do this too) actually think about the problem and come to his own conclusions. Besides, there's definitely a very slim chance that despite all our collective industry experience, we could be wrong! This could be "the one" - the next John Carmack or Tim Sweeny, and with one nonchalant wave of the hand, we may have just convinced him to give it up and become a rocket scientist. We will never know what we lost either.

#14 True. He knew nothing about making a game whatsoever. I told him to go for it, but asked him about the copyright issues, told him he'd need many modelers, told him that he would need the Halo source code, and told him he'd need several texture artists along with programmers. Trust me when I say that this kid was definately not "the one." (lol!) I could never see him as a designer. He had a superior quality to him, when he lacked any experience in our field. Also, basically he just wanted to be able to not get banned or killed by other players. He didn't want to do anything else with it.

Oh yeah, did you see those Halo 2 trailers? I swear I saw one where they claimed Halo 2 sold 250 million copies. Hah! That's more than there are Xbox users!

#15 @ Anton -

Quote:
How many times did Edison fail making a light bulb?

He never failed at making it once, he just figured out several thousand ways how not to make a lightbulb.

Experience is our best teacher, lest we drink from the pool of knowledge.

- Ronixus

#16

Quote:But I think an unfortunate attitude has developed here: the attitude that unless you finish a game, working on it wasn't fun...and I don't think that's the case at all.

When learning a new sport or game, is it more fun and educational to play against someone who is so far beyond you that they repeatedly pound you before you've even gotten your bearings, or against someone who is pretty close to your own level (maybe a little bit better)?

If you are learning a musical instrument, is it better to start with the most complex piece you ever wanted to play and learning with that, or starting with the basics and building your way up?

Some people might argue otherwise, but its commonly believed that the latter approach is more fun, yields faster results, and is by far more rewarding. Success, once tasted, is a pretty addictive even if you start small. And if you want to find people to help you realize your dream, it's far easier once you already have some proof up on the screen (or on the store shelves!) that it's going to happen.

Another thing to note is that what most people consider "almost done" is actually about the 20% mark. I tend to talk about the "80/20 rule" - 80% of the job takes 20% of the time, and the other 20% of the job takes 80% of the time. (I've also heard a similar saying that the first 90% of the job takes 90% of the time, and the remaining 10% of the job takes the OTHER 90% of the time). Developing any skill takes practice - lots of practice. If all you've done is practice STARTING a game, you'll still have no experience doing everything it takes to develop and finish a game.

Now on various forgotten directories on my hard drive, and on some old floppies or dusty CD-ROMs I have the stillborn beginnings of a number of games, too. I just put one on the backburner a month ago that might never be finished. I have been paid a decent amount of money to work on games that never saw the light of day. That's okay. But if you are forever biting off more than you can chew and then giving up, you aren't going to get anywhere.

It's okay to dream big. I mean, look at some of the spectacular, relatively big games being released by Indies (Anito, Minions of Mirth, Starshatter, Lore: Dark Horizons). It's certainly possible. But it's a long, slow road, even if you are lucky AND skilled.

#17 To be honest with all of you. If you really have dedication and a real passion for games you can make an A+ game. Most people though overestimate some things, and underestimate others.

One of those over estimations is programming.(Yes I can see some of you shivvering already) But the thing to understand is, NO CODE IS COPYWRITED. I'll probably get flamed for this, but, there is no such thing as code stealing. EVERY programmer that has ever written anything uses loads of books as references. You will never find a coder that can program an object or weapon into an engine that didn't look it up in a book. This goes for everything. So kids BUY BOOKS loads of them, TONS of them, everything from simple design to DX9 Shader books. I recently ran into a bump mapping problem that was fixed up with the right book. Also understand that these books aren't copy and paste, they are referances. Don't plan on making a great game without dabbling in the source code.

Now the underestimation. I've just recently made this remarkable discovery. Modeling and animating is hard as a mofo. One of the things I though would be so easy and simle, isn't, at least it isn't when you don't have $5K to spend on Maya or 3DS Max. A better solution is Sofimage's XSI, that will run you 500, and is a little more complex to use. If you're a budget guy that just wants to learn, go with the $25 milkshape.

Modeling now and a lack of books(Lost a whole box in my recent move) is whats holding me back. BUT and this is another tip. There is ALWAYs something you can do with a game. Right now since I can't really program thanks to lack of referances I work on Modeling or Building design beefing out loads of 3D goodness while I wait to buy my books. The main thing is to stay active on your game and not be afraid to steal some ideas. Games are an evolutionary thing, without idea stealing there would be no Half-Life, or BF1942, or Halo. Jeez the original HL still has Lots of code bits from Quake.

Start small. Lets say your making an FPS. Well first make a room, then put a weapon in it, then an enemy that shoots at you, then make it so when you kill the guy, the game goes to the main menu. LOOK you have the basis of a GAME. This is more than enough encouragement to get you to turn that 1 room game into many corridors and dungeons. The thing is one room at a time. I learned this designing levels for Unreal Tournament.

Be dedicated, wheather you fail, you'll never fully fall. Over my projects that I've started since I was 16 (with lots of hacked software which is gone now ::SHH::) I have failed more times than I care to count, but I have a Passion to succeed in the gaming industry as a whole. So my engine keeps running with Ideas. You would do well to do the same. And don't listen to your friends.

#18 Mitch, I agree with you. My first FPS was just a small room with grass textures everywhere. Back then I was using Reality Factory. My second was pretty much just a mod to Realm Wars. Anyway, about the programming thing. I totally agree with you. It is over estimated. Earlier today I was just thinking "Oh my God! How am I going to do any AI for my game?!??" But then I took a look at how it worked, and now I think I can begin to understand it and use it a little better. But I still am a noob...:(

EDIT: A lot of people are probably going to hate me for saying this, but I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but most games are pretty much super advanced mods of other games. (I don't mean this in a bad way the least little bit.) Look at some of the games here. A fair amount of them have used the default code with extreme modifications. There's nothing wrong with that though. I of course have done it. I like to think of most games as mods. They change/add the models, they change/add the source code, etc. You see, no matter how much you change something, it still originates from what it started out as.

#19 To be honest with all of you. If you really have dedication and a real passion for games you can make an A+ game. Most people though overestimate some things, and underestimate others.

One of those over estimations is programming.(Yes I can see some of you shivvering already) But the thing to understand is, NO CODE IS COPYWRITED. I'll probably get flamed for this, but, there is no such thing as code stealing. EVERY programmer that has ever written anything uses loads of books as references. You will never find a coder that can program an object or weapon into an engine that didn't look it up in a book. This goes for everything. So kids BUY BOOKS loads of them, TONS of them, everything from simple design to DX9 Shader books. I recently ran into a bump mapping problem that was fixed up with the right book. Also understand that these books aren't copy and paste, they are referances. Don't plan on making a great game without dabbling in the source code.

Now the underestimation. I've just recently made this remarkable discovery. Modeling and animating is hard as a mofo. One of the things I though would be so easy and simle, isn't, at least it isn't when you don't have $5K to spend on Maya or 3DS Max. A better solution is Sofimage's XSI, that will run you 500, and is a little more complex to use. If you're a budget guy that just wants to learn, go with the $25 milkshape.

Modeling now and a lack of books(Lost a whole box in my recent move) is whats holding me back. BUT and this is another tip. There is ALWAYs something you can do with a game. Right now since I can't really program thanks to lack of referances I work on Modeling or Building design beefing out loads of 3D goodness while I wait to buy my books. The main thing is to stay active on your game and not be afraid to steal some ideas. Games are an evolutionary thing, without idea stealing there would be no Half-Life, or BF1942, or Halo. Jeez the original HL still has Lots of code bits from Quake.

Start small. Lets say your making an FPS. Well first make a room, then put a weapon in it, then an enemy that shoots at you, then make it so when you kill the guy, the game goes to the main menu. LOOK you have the basis of a GAME. This is more than enough encouragement to get you to turn that 1 room game into many corridors and dungeons. The thing is one room at a time. I learned this designing levels for Unreal Tournament.

Be dedicated, wheather you fail, you'll never fully fall. Over my projects that I've started since I was 16 (with lots of hacked software which is gone now ::SHH::) I have failed more times than I care to count, but I have a Passion to succeed in the gaming industry as a whole. So my engine keeps running with Ideas. You would do well to do the same. And don't listen to your friends.

#20 I can see what you guys are saying about the importance of finishing a game. And since you've got more experience than me at this sort of thing, who knows, perhaps I'm wrong. But since I made an argument, I might as well defend it.

I just don't see finishing a game as "getting somewhere". Especially since both Joe and Jay describe game development as something you get better at over time. I take that as meaning that the point in making a game is so that you can make another, better game--ad nauseum. I think John Carmack said one of the reasons that he's working on rockets lately is that game development no longer is as novel or interesting to him as it once was...which I think reinforces my point that sometimes the journey is more fun than the destination.

Having said all that, large-scale failures take a lot out of you, so I've been more interested in smaller projects lately. Which totally undercuts my argument, but oh well.