E3 Shader based examples
by Phil Carlisle · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 05/17/2005 (5:14 am) · 48 replies
Well, now that we're seeing past the first-pass shader engines, what does everyone think of the current use of shader tech?
I've been looking at games like Battlefield 2, that new WW2 RTS game by Relic that I can never remember the name of, call of duty 2 etc.
The thing that absolutely scares me to death is the art requirements. I mean Battlefield 2 is just HUGE amounts of content.
But I dont think the shader tech really stands out much there and to be honest I expect that game to not really be so much better (for design and pacing reasons rather than technical).
But look at what most of the engines are doing in terms of tech and maybe we can find some area's of functionality that TSE could look at going forward?
1) Seems to me that instanced geometry and having that handled for things like a cityscape is a good advance. City of Heroes (non shader) does this, but I'm sure GTA4, Battlefield 2 and so on will do that.
2) God of War looks particularly to be pushing the requirements of the hardware. I've seen the UE3 demo and its REALLY pushing current level tech a long way. Mainly just in terms of passes and texture memory.
COD2 seems to be just doing the bog-standard stuff, so thats normal mapped skinned characters with stencil shadows, thats similar to the Relic one (man I can NEVER remember that games name, not a good sign for sales).
So assuming we will see the stenc shadows on normal mapped high-ish-poly characters sometime soon, with nicer terrain and some instanced geometry for the buildings etc, we should be golden!
I'm both underwhelmed with the advances, whilst being blown away at the sheer volume of nice looking assets in these games.
I've been looking at games like Battlefield 2, that new WW2 RTS game by Relic that I can never remember the name of, call of duty 2 etc.
The thing that absolutely scares me to death is the art requirements. I mean Battlefield 2 is just HUGE amounts of content.
But I dont think the shader tech really stands out much there and to be honest I expect that game to not really be so much better (for design and pacing reasons rather than technical).
But look at what most of the engines are doing in terms of tech and maybe we can find some area's of functionality that TSE could look at going forward?
1) Seems to me that instanced geometry and having that handled for things like a cityscape is a good advance. City of Heroes (non shader) does this, but I'm sure GTA4, Battlefield 2 and so on will do that.
2) God of War looks particularly to be pushing the requirements of the hardware. I've seen the UE3 demo and its REALLY pushing current level tech a long way. Mainly just in terms of passes and texture memory.
COD2 seems to be just doing the bog-standard stuff, so thats normal mapped skinned characters with stencil shadows, thats similar to the Relic one (man I can NEVER remember that games name, not a good sign for sales).
So assuming we will see the stenc shadows on normal mapped high-ish-poly characters sometime soon, with nicer terrain and some instanced geometry for the buildings etc, we should be golden!
I'm both underwhelmed with the advances, whilst being blown away at the sheer volume of nice looking assets in these games.
About the author
Recent Threads
#42
Gish has some apocryphal instances of name recognition among non-indies. Is _it_ complex and on radar?
06/12/2005 (1:03 pm)
Lore, ThinkTanks et al are complex, and on the general gamer's radar?Gish has some apocryphal instances of name recognition among non-indies. Is _it_ complex and on radar?
#43
As one of the creators of TSE what type of audience are you aiming it at? Only you're not exactly showing any confidence in the ability of people using it.
Lore has been reviewed and acknowledged by the mainstream gaming press. This doesn't guarantee mega sales or anything like that but, it does mean that you are on the general gamers radar. So what was that question mark at the end of your first line about?
Also why do you think Lore and Think Tanks are complex? Just because something isn't simply, does not make it complex either as far as I know. If anything the main aim of a long lasting game is to be simply to pick-up but, hard to master (take blackjack or even poker as examples of this).
You and Phil puzzle me sometimes. On the one hand you call for great quality examples of work using TSE and TGE and on the other hand you tell everyone not to bother trying to make high quality stuff because as indies they can't hope to compete.
Last time I looked, we as a species had created internal combustion and sent probes to the outer edges of our solar system. Given this, how the frack is creating 3d images of high quality beyond any team with a brain and some dedication?
06/12/2005 (3:56 pm)
@BenAs one of the creators of TSE what type of audience are you aiming it at? Only you're not exactly showing any confidence in the ability of people using it.
Lore has been reviewed and acknowledged by the mainstream gaming press. This doesn't guarantee mega sales or anything like that but, it does mean that you are on the general gamers radar. So what was that question mark at the end of your first line about?
Also why do you think Lore and Think Tanks are complex? Just because something isn't simply, does not make it complex either as far as I know. If anything the main aim of a long lasting game is to be simply to pick-up but, hard to master (take blackjack or even poker as examples of this).
You and Phil puzzle me sometimes. On the one hand you call for great quality examples of work using TSE and TGE and on the other hand you tell everyone not to bother trying to make high quality stuff because as indies they can't hope to compete.
Last time I looked, we as a species had created internal combustion and sent probes to the outer edges of our solar system. Given this, how the frack is creating 3d images of high quality beyond any team with a brain and some dedication?
#44
Sure, we can produce nice content. But not ENOUGH to compete, if we could, we would be fulltime and spending millions to develop things.
We dont NEED to compete on thier terms either. But I do worry that people (the general gamer public) really dont get the difference it makes when they see Unreal 3 compared to my games..
As it is, I choose to make my own games and sod everyone else.
06/12/2005 (4:05 pm)
Peter, we arent saying its IMPOSSIBLE, we are saying that its NOT A GOOD THING TO TRY AND BEAT EA AT THEIR OWN GAME. Thier own game being CONTENT.Sure, we can produce nice content. But not ENOUGH to compete, if we could, we would be fulltime and spending millions to develop things.
We dont NEED to compete on thier terms either. But I do worry that people (the general gamer public) really dont get the difference it makes when they see Unreal 3 compared to my games..
As it is, I choose to make my own games and sod everyone else.
#45
TSE is being aimed at anyone who wants to make a game that takes advantage of the latest graphics cards.
MONOPOLY JR. could get benefit out of using TSE.
The point of TSE is to remove technical barriers, just like TGE. You want to do something? We have the technology to let you do it. That doesn't make it any more feasible to out-produce someone with a many million dollar budget per-game.
But if you do get funding or enough people contributing time, you CAN do it.
That's the whole point here - that we're giving indies the tech they need to make their dreams. And with that I think the only repsonsible thing to do is to point out that tech is only one part of the equation, and that talent, people, and time play a BIG part of the rest.
Can an indie make one area that looks as good as WoW or EQ2? Probably. Can they make a whole world in their spare time? Probably not.
Look, if you're looking for an acknowledgement that a whole world could happen - yes! It absolutely COULD.
Will it happen for your average garage developer indie (ie, people like BT or 21-6)? Well, I'll believe it when I see it. Probably not.
There's no more discussion to be had here. Either get some concrete examples (and not of the "private millionaire finances 25 million game project" variety), or move on. :)
06/12/2005 (4:24 pm)
Peter,TSE is being aimed at anyone who wants to make a game that takes advantage of the latest graphics cards.
MONOPOLY JR. could get benefit out of using TSE.
The point of TSE is to remove technical barriers, just like TGE. You want to do something? We have the technology to let you do it. That doesn't make it any more feasible to out-produce someone with a many million dollar budget per-game.
But if you do get funding or enough people contributing time, you CAN do it.
That's the whole point here - that we're giving indies the tech they need to make their dreams. And with that I think the only repsonsible thing to do is to point out that tech is only one part of the equation, and that talent, people, and time play a BIG part of the rest.
Can an indie make one area that looks as good as WoW or EQ2? Probably. Can they make a whole world in their spare time? Probably not.
Look, if you're looking for an acknowledgement that a whole world could happen - yes! It absolutely COULD.
Will it happen for your average garage developer indie (ie, people like BT or 21-6)? Well, I'll believe it when I see it. Probably not.
There's no more discussion to be had here. Either get some concrete examples (and not of the "private millionaire finances 25 million game project" variety), or move on. :)
#46
If you make something unique an fun, you don't necessarily need a team of a hundred 3d modelers. Look at the Grand Theft Auto series for example. They were indie developers, and the first two games in their series were 2D, when most other PC games were 3D. Grand Theft Auto 3 was made with an the former indie game engine, Renderware, that cost about 1 or 2 grand when they bought it. After Grand Theft Auto 3's success, the price of a Renderware license instantly went to 40,000 dollars.
I am sure there are plenty other examples of indie games that made their mark in the AAA market. I was just using Grand Theft Auto 3 as an example, because its the best selling game of all time. So think unique and fun, not "my game has to have as much content as Everquest 2".
@Ben: LOL MONOPOLY JR.
06/12/2005 (5:52 pm)
I agree with Ben. Torque makes it possible to make anything you can imagine, as long as you have the time and resources to do it. Everyone doesn't have to make a World War II first person shooter, or an MMORPG. I mean what is the point in being indie at all, if the game you are making already exists?If you make something unique an fun, you don't necessarily need a team of a hundred 3d modelers. Look at the Grand Theft Auto series for example. They were indie developers, and the first two games in their series were 2D, when most other PC games were 3D. Grand Theft Auto 3 was made with an the former indie game engine, Renderware, that cost about 1 or 2 grand when they bought it. After Grand Theft Auto 3's success, the price of a Renderware license instantly went to 40,000 dollars.
I am sure there are plenty other examples of indie games that made their mark in the AAA market. I was just using Grand Theft Auto 3 as an example, because its the best selling game of all time. So think unique and fun, not "my game has to have as much content as Everquest 2".
@Ben: LOL MONOPOLY JR.
#47
Renderware on PS2 was always expensive, including Consultancy time i should think about $250,000 was spent on the license.
As to quality i am not saying that your work should not be of the highest visual quality and this is what TSE allows. To go back to the business side (i think i read this in a Garage Games post) you have two potential markets for your products.
1) Make something which runs everywhere, Linux, Mac and lowend PC. I think this is what TGE allows.
2) Make something just for Brand New High End PC, this is a hardcore audience who will buy stuff to show off their fancy new machine, possibly game play is not that important to them. You may even have a chance of an OEM deal. The classic though dated example is Incoming from the now bankrupt Rage Software which didn't even get a proper retail release but shipped with over 30 million graphics card. Obviously most vendors want to ship HL2 nowadays but as GG show with Marble Maddness there is still room for the odd bundle deal.
06/13/2005 (2:04 am)
Unfortunately GTA1 - 3 were not really indie, GTA 1 and 2 were in part developed when DMA were owned by Nintendo. At that point they went to Rock Star and the rest is history. Interestingly GTA 3 and its potential impact were the reason that Take 2 formed Rock Star even before the game was made. Genius or luck i am not sure which. Renderware on PS2 was always expensive, including Consultancy time i should think about $250,000 was spent on the license.
As to quality i am not saying that your work should not be of the highest visual quality and this is what TSE allows. To go back to the business side (i think i read this in a Garage Games post) you have two potential markets for your products.
1) Make something which runs everywhere, Linux, Mac and lowend PC. I think this is what TGE allows.
2) Make something just for Brand New High End PC, this is a hardcore audience who will buy stuff to show off their fancy new machine, possibly game play is not that important to them. You may even have a chance of an OEM deal. The classic though dated example is Incoming from the now bankrupt Rage Software which didn't even get a proper retail release but shipped with over 30 million graphics card. Obviously most vendors want to ship HL2 nowadays but as GG show with Marble Maddness there is still room for the odd bundle deal.
#48
I think ben et al are saying there is no limit to the quality for a particular project content
but neccesarily to the quantity as a function of resources available over a realistically
finite time interval that makes bussiness (or however you wish to quantify your return) sense.
I for one am blown away by the power that zbrush provides a smaller team. What I think ben
is saying (and I agree with mostly) is think big but plan small (i.e. iterative). Set a realistic limit to
features and find ways to maximize your input to output ratio.
Another more important element I believe is that not having the resources available that the
larger companies do forces us to reevaluate gameplay mechanics and ideas which leads to
real innovation in gameplay, etc.
I don't want to compete with the mass market as I feel they're not really doing anything
special at the moment. They all pretty much look the same to me - I can honestly say that almost
anything out there bores the crap outta me within a very limited amount of time.
If one takes a look at something like SPORE, things start looking up a bit...
~neo
07/26/2005 (3:17 am)
I think perhaps there are floating point errors in the views here ;pI think ben et al are saying there is no limit to the quality for a particular project content
but neccesarily to the quantity as a function of resources available over a realistically
finite time interval that makes bussiness (or however you wish to quantify your return) sense.
I for one am blown away by the power that zbrush provides a smaller team. What I think ben
is saying (and I agree with mostly) is think big but plan small (i.e. iterative). Set a realistic limit to
features and find ways to maximize your input to output ratio.
Another more important element I believe is that not having the resources available that the
larger companies do forces us to reevaluate gameplay mechanics and ideas which leads to
real innovation in gameplay, etc.
I don't want to compete with the mass market as I feel they're not really doing anything
special at the moment. They all pretty much look the same to me - I can honestly say that almost
anything out there bores the crap outta me within a very limited amount of time.
If one takes a look at something like SPORE, things start looking up a bit...
~neo
Torque Owner Peter Dwyer
For a long time now my email signature has been "You can tell the pioneers, they are the one with the arrows in their backs and the sabotaged wagons!"
I may have to start taking time out of my schedule to start posting some helpers to anyone who actually does want to produce high quality game content on an indie budget. Guiding people through the danger zones such as employing staff vs contracting out the work. Realistic production times, the importance of pre-production, production and post production in an indie game cycle etc. etc.
Ultimately even if you do indie development for the fun of it, you need to earn something at the end of the day. Even if only to fund your next indie project. The route to indie stardom isn't easy but, it is possible and you don't have to sacrifice quality to do it. Guess it's about time for a .plan