Intellectual property... to what extent?

#21 Chris,

Thanks. I have one son who is into video games and one that is into sports/skateboarding. I'm not that athletic so its easier for me to work on this game project but I'm still trying to be supportive of my other son and his interests in other ways.

GarageGames has definately provided a facility to share in my sons interests and give him a taste of what it would be like to work for a game company and also what he needs to learn!

It's every parents dream (IMO) to be able to prepare their kids for life later on! If he sticks with it, I believe he has a good chance of working in the game industry (as an Artist) if he so desires.

Plus I'm having fun right along with him!

It's a win-win situation.

#22 Well, having a published work will definately help him along the way.

#23 Star Wars aside, I'd be interested if anyone knows what the answer might be to Steven's original question.

"Regarding games and ideas, storylines etc... At what point can you borrow an idea, theme etc.. from a game and not have it called intellectual property infringement?"

Something I've always wondered...

#24 What is not protected by copyright

Basically, the theme or structure of a story can't be copyrighted any more than "it takes place in a magical forest" or "a desert planet" can be. But as soon as it becomes easily identifyable (ie. all of the visual elements look like a carbon copy of Star Wars Tattooine or Dune as visualized in the movie or tv series or book artwork).

The story itself can be copyrighted, but that's simply because it's a finite work. It's the detail that falls into copyright. The grand story of Star Wars has been being told for a long, long time and is a wonderful example of melodrama. But the specifics are what make Star Wars the movie it is.

You can use Little Red Riding Hood as a character in your game, but as soon as she pulls an uzi from her basket and firebombs enemies, you're getting a bit too close to the individual character design of Bulleta from Vampire Savior. For an example of attitude, look at the character of Lara Croft from Tomb Raider and Dante from Devil May Cry. They are both larger-than life wise-cracking characters with a drop-dead attitude and flair, and are archetypally very similar. But they are individually very different. Compare them with the typical action hero in a summer block-buster. Most of the time, the characters are almost carbon copies of each other, but the context of the film and their place in it define them as a copyrightable character. The theme of boy meets girl, boy looses girl, boy fights to win girl is common among a number of genres from action to romantic comedies, but the theme and structure isn't protected. The individual scripts and the visual impressions for movies utilizing that theme are protected.

I'm explaining it very badly, and I think that is simply because I'm trying to find a common vocabulary to explain the concept. It's actually quite a simple concept to grasp, but confusion over litigation and public misinfomation and speculation, as well as property mythology has clouded the issue.

Copyright.gov has some great information that will lay it out much clearer than I am. You should also look at trademarks as well, as some of the things that aren't copyrightable are trademarkable in certain contexts or patentable in others. But for the most part, you shouldn't have to worry. Unless you're making a product that you know you don't own the rights to (like making a game based on Star Wars rather than a game influenced by Star Wars).

#25 Going through our posts today I stopped on this statement you made Chris:

Quote:All Im saying is find an amazingly fun bit of gameplay and biuld your game on that... Dont take a concept (Tatooine) and build a game on the concept... Gameplay is why we make games (gameplay doesnt have the word game in it for no reason) so focus on the play part (the fun)

So you don't think a backstory should be developed first?

I find it hard to think about what is going to go on in the game until I know what world it takes place in and how the story works out into the game. Maybe that is just from my story-centric point of view. Take World of WarCraft for instance. Are you saying Metzen came up with what he was going to do in the game and then made up a story? Am I misunderstanding?

#26 The designer in one of my old projects used a concept similar to that, and we didnt have any problems. You'd have to actually use the names of things, or exact replicas of creatures or structures to have any problems, and even so, I doubt lucasarts would go after you for a small portion of a game like that anyways unless you had money, they'd probably just make you make revisions to your game to change their intellectual property.

#27 If you were to use anything related to starwars they will shut you down... as numerous people on this site can tell you

@ Steven - Yes, with World of warcraft, I am pretty sure the designer(s) built the storyline into the gameplay. The fun factor of a persistent world, and the idea of what the game represents (Orc's vs. humans?.. sorry havent played it) is the basis of the gameplay... They built storylines to fit the gameplay..

Noone has time to flesh out entire storylines, then flesh gameplay on top of that just so they can prototype the idea. You prototype gameplay, then if that is good you move on to fleshing out a storyline to suit the gameplay... Otherwise choosing a game to move forward with (in development) would take forever... and theres no real way to prototype a storyline.

Now, Im sure at some time the gameplay was built on the story.. but the best games are based around a super fun gameplay concept (ie ... like playing hte same senario from 5 different characters perspectives) ... NOT the other way around. Most players play games for the fact that they are fun... not to try and reach a point in the game where they can watch a cut screen for more info about hte story... If that's what they played games for they would read books instead.

Of course these are all my opinions, but you will more hten likely find that most people agree with most of it.

#28 Chris, I know what you mean now. I guess I was looking at it from a different way. I come up with the setting and story and then say "What can we do within this world." Since our initial conversation I was able to revise the game so you can play from both sides of the game good and bad, however, its not that clear cut. I'm trying to ask myself during this process "is this fun?". I find myself getting bogged down into too much of the details of this world I'm creating. I was thinking about Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, WarCraft etc... they don't explain stuff like how everything came to be. In Star Wars, humans are just their througout the galaxy. My problem is that I believe I need to explain this stuff.

I need to try and concentrate more on game play initially I guess. We definately are having feature creep though.

#29 They don't explain it because it's not necessary in telling the story. It's interesting to talk to authors about their scripts or stories as they know more about the world than anyone else. But that doesn't mean it's necessary to the story that they're telling. It may be if they sequelize it, but there's always a chance that no one will actually care about how rich their world beyond the pages or screen actually is.

#30 I'm probably one of the minority that wants to know why things are like they are. That is definately something I need to learn in making this game, limit the story to what is only necessary to work the game. Coming up with a story is actually harder than it seems, at least for me anyway.

#31 A lot of games out there have a immense backstory, sometimes for even insignificant characters. To the player its often unimporant though. For example, in Unreal Tournament do you really care where the characters came from, their stories... you really don't need to know this information to hop in and blow 'em up. This is still created though, it helps design the game and create the characters when you do.

In most games you won't be able to force your entire story upon the player. This would probably be boring for many. There are those that enjoy them (I often do) though there are many that don't, which is why games like Morrowind include in game books so players can read up on further details if they like. A player may play through Morrowind and never know there was a deep story (other than the fairly detailed quests). Another player may gather every single book in that game and find its many novels worth! Lol I can't remember how many novels worth of story is in that game but some insane ammount.

Also the player's mood will dictate if they want to sit through a long winded story session. If I enjoy a game and after a long hard day want to load it up and play for a little while I may not want to read and hear a dragging story, I may just want to "play"... this is where the gameplay aspects come in. On the other hand I may be in a read mood and may choose to delve into the story aspects of your game (maybe when I'm in a reading a book sort of mood and choose your story deep game).

I think theres a few things you just need to keep in mind...

keep the game dynamic, don't make it a bunch of the same... thats been done and done and done... etc

give players the choice, don't force them through a story

design the game to play through for both delving into the story and skipping through it. ex: if they skip past a long winded story session don't let the last few sentences be the key to the next quest (unless you really build up to that point).

if you do design it as a story driven game then keep in mind some tatctics and consderations authors do. They need to keep the reader interested. A lot of games out there that have the deep stories forget that authors often have to use techniques to draw their readers in, they don't just detail it in hundreds of pages of details, you need intrigue, mystery, action, excitement, drama, etc... whatever your approach just keep the player enthralled in it... suspension of disbeleif is key.

#32 Matthew, good points to keep in mind. I was going to focus on the wrong aspects:

Quote:I think theres a few things you just need to keep in mind...

keep the game dynamic, don't make it a bunch of the same... thats been done and done and done... etc

give players the choice, don't force them through a story

design the game to play through for both devling into the story and skipping through it. ex: if they skip past a long winded story session don't let the last few sentences be the key to the next quest (unless you really build up to that point).

Mixing it up is something I'll keep in mind. Just doing the same old boring missions I guess gets old. I guess it all boils down to player choice. Have the story there if the player wants that or let them bypass and just kill stuff if they want to.

I'm really learning quite alot from this thread. I'm glad I chose to post.

#33 If you look at the mission structure for most top-tier games released in the last ten years, you'll see almost the exact same types of missions consistently. What makes these missions shine isn't their originality, but their flow in the action of the story, their relevance with the world in which the avatar exists, and whether the player is willing to suspend their disbelief for a while.

Tenchu, Metal Gear, and Splinter Cell are all stealth-based games that have a strong mission structure. I love them all, and while I understand the "get key, open door, don't get seen" basis, it doesn't make them weak because they are all entrenched in their world. Usually when we speak of entrenchment, we think of the negative side of things (an entrenched mini-game mentality in RPG's which provides no fun, but a long-term frustrating gameplay experience; the entrenched FPS control scheme; Resident Evil's entrenched camera/control system that seems to show up in so many survival horror titles). But in this case, becoming entrenched in the world itself is a good thing as it gives everything a point of reference and a context.

And if you remove the idea of gameplay, Resident Evil, Quake 2, and most console RPG's would fall into much the same type of mission category as the games in the pevious paragraph.

#34 Matthew, shouldn't a game target a specific kind of player? I mean, you can't be everything to everyone. I think maybe the genre or type of player our game will target is Action/Adventure. In my opinion, games today, especially the MMORPG try to cater to every type of player there is. Its all about the numbers, or number of subscriptions. I rather cater to 1 or 2 types of players well than 10 half-baked. That is another beauty of the Indie (and our case hobbyist) developer. I'm not depending on the game to bring home the bacon. Although if by some chance that happened, that would be wonderful!! :)

I see your point regarding stories that aren't really being used, like the case of UT. You don't really do quests or missions in those games. Just shoot each other and capture the flag type of gameplay. Our game will try and have a purpose to the killing, although I do believe it will be a tough job coming up with loads of different missions and such. The first few will be easy I'm sure.

#35 @Steven - I wouldnt worry about who your game attracts. Id just worry about making a game that is fun... especially for you since you dont care about marketing it (its for fun) ... Just make the game the way you want it to be... if others like it then great

#36 David, that is exactly what I want to create. The missions that you undertake will let you learn a little more about the world but have a purpose from your point of view. From one point of view your defending and upholding the law, safeguarding weapons, technology freedoms, but on the other point of view your stealing the weapons and technology from the evil empire so to speak and trying to show everyone the true intentions of the organization (that may or may not be really the truth). Throughout the story you'll uncover information that may change your point of you and allow you to switch sides.

#37

Quote:Matthew, shouldn't a game target a specific kind of player? I mean, you can't be everything to everyone.

Very true... I think that is definately key in designing your game. Though along with a type of player you must consider hardcore vs casual gaming. A game that balances both can pull in both crowds. There really aren't that many hardcore gamers out there vs casual gamers... and even more the "mood" of the player is important to.

I personally am a big RP fan, I love Roleplaying games, reading large fantasy books, and being a writer hobbyist myself I enjoy reading other's writings, especially about fantasy and adventure. Though there are times when I just want to hop in a game and get somehwere. I have the need to feel like I'm progressing and in the world vs just reading a story. I guess its the difference between "reading" a book and "experiencing" a book. The contrast of successfull games that suspend disbeleif can be compared to those books that pull you in vs the ones that don't and always feel like your "reading."

I also agree with your outlook on being indies. Though to cater to a player you usually need to give them options. I'd suggest (and this is just me) that you should include the deep story that drives the gameplay but give the player the option whether they want to spend a long time delving into that or if they want to experience the more action and adventure side of the game. If you give the player a choice you win either way.

#38 Ok, I found a professional explanation (BioWare) of exactly my mind set and why I was doing story first:

Taken from www.gamasutra.com... Greg Zeschuk started by stating BioWare's compromise with story-based games: the studio has a permanent staff of writers, most of which have published in traditional media before. Thus, when a project is started, BioWare spends well over one year just world-building, to make sure the universe they are trying to make is coherent and provides room for interaction. Then the story arcs are built, and only after this stage does the content pipeline actually create the assets for the game world.

This is the way I started because I felt I needed to know what has happened or is happening in the world, what exists etc.. before I could come up with the gameplay.

#39 Good reference...

mainly thats what I was referring to with the UT comment... even in a game like that where the story doesn't matter they still develop backstory, neverthless for a game like yours which is based around story :)

#40 Needless to say... I've got a lot to learn! It's been fun though.