Fan Content in a Cohesive Environment?
by Dreamer · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 04/25/2005 (11:48 am) · 7 replies
Discussions of the actual capability of the engine aside, I'm curious as to your thoughts on an idea I had not too long ago.
A persistant MMORPG in which the content/storylines quests etc are entirely created by third parties.
The concept is really even a little simpler than that...
You come up with a basic set of rules, and tools and allow aspiring DMs to try their hand at creation of a single realm. You charge them a fee for hosting the realm, they charge players a fee for playing in it (Ain't PayPal great?).
Simple concept, the implementation would be a little problematic, but I've been thinking it through and I think it would not only be possible, but is actually probably given my foray's into the RPG world with my own work on Dream (admittedly not the best RPG in the world, but it is just meant as a test case to see how much work is required to make a playable RPG from TGE, lemme tell you it hasn't been as difficult as I thought it would be).
The biggest roadblock I can see at this point would be the, prevention of cheats creeping in, but that could even be halted by simply hosting the realm for the DM, and making sure to review and playtest the code before allowing them to go live, and making sure the DM doesn't have the ability to directly exec new scripts or dangerous commands mid game.
The next biggest roadblock I can see would be the amount of bandwidth required to host an MMO, however I have been looking into it, and have found more than a few ISPs with WAY to many server racks just sitting there taking up space (companies tend to go bankrupt alot lately), and willing to lease on the cheap just to fill the vacancies. While it wouldn't be within reach of every Joe Sixpack, it would deffinetely be doable for most folks.
The next biggest roadblock to this would be the creation of a single cohesive world from the hopes and dreams of the various DM's who are the real potential market. My thinking on this is a Key/Portal system based around 3-4 starter realms, with an engaging storyline that can be built from. When a person first creates an account under Joe the DM they get a Key that allows them to enter Joes World and they leave the default mission area via a portal and trigger, if they want to enter other realms, they simply buy the appropriate key for real world cash or in game currency from James the DM and then enter Jame's world, etc and so forth.
I think this system would both stop cheating (a real DM would probably not want to devalue the currency of the realm), and allow for a potential DM to potentially make alot of cash if they make a fun realm, and charge the right fees.
Anyways, this is about as far as I have thought this out, just looking to see if anyone has any thoughts on this type of system.
A persistant MMORPG in which the content/storylines quests etc are entirely created by third parties.
The concept is really even a little simpler than that...
You come up with a basic set of rules, and tools and allow aspiring DMs to try their hand at creation of a single realm. You charge them a fee for hosting the realm, they charge players a fee for playing in it (Ain't PayPal great?).
Simple concept, the implementation would be a little problematic, but I've been thinking it through and I think it would not only be possible, but is actually probably given my foray's into the RPG world with my own work on Dream (admittedly not the best RPG in the world, but it is just meant as a test case to see how much work is required to make a playable RPG from TGE, lemme tell you it hasn't been as difficult as I thought it would be).
The biggest roadblock I can see at this point would be the, prevention of cheats creeping in, but that could even be halted by simply hosting the realm for the DM, and making sure to review and playtest the code before allowing them to go live, and making sure the DM doesn't have the ability to directly exec new scripts or dangerous commands mid game.
The next biggest roadblock I can see would be the amount of bandwidth required to host an MMO, however I have been looking into it, and have found more than a few ISPs with WAY to many server racks just sitting there taking up space (companies tend to go bankrupt alot lately), and willing to lease on the cheap just to fill the vacancies. While it wouldn't be within reach of every Joe Sixpack, it would deffinetely be doable for most folks.
The next biggest roadblock to this would be the creation of a single cohesive world from the hopes and dreams of the various DM's who are the real potential market. My thinking on this is a Key/Portal system based around 3-4 starter realms, with an engaging storyline that can be built from. When a person first creates an account under Joe the DM they get a Key that allows them to enter Joes World and they leave the default mission area via a portal and trigger, if they want to enter other realms, they simply buy the appropriate key for real world cash or in game currency from James the DM and then enter Jame's world, etc and so forth.
I think this system would both stop cheating (a real DM would probably not want to devalue the currency of the realm), and allow for a potential DM to potentially make alot of cash if they make a fun realm, and charge the right fees.
Anyways, this is about as far as I have thought this out, just looking to see if anyone has any thoughts on this type of system.
#2
You combine those two issues, and you have a real recipie for trouble.
In my example you would have a REALLY simplified ruleset, everything would be pretty much based on dice rolls, with stats being a secondary bonus consideration to the die rolls, also you focus alot more on skills than primary stats. For instance a player who was REALLY good at 1hs weapons would not nessecarily need a high STR to do good damage against an enemy, as long as they were wielding a 1hs weapon. Also another consideration that I have been thinking of, is to completely remove classes from the game. You want to be an axe wielding wizard? So be it. You want to swing a blacksmiths hammer, and still be able to tailor the most delicate silks, so be it. Decide you made a mistake in your stat/skill points distribution, and feel you need to unlearn some things to get better at others. No problem, but it will cost you say 10-15% of your current point total.
Anyways, thats my thoughts on the whole balancing act with RPGs.
If you do this, what you wind up with is a game that will either be so seriously unbalanced that it is unplayable, or a fun to play game, that needs no balance tweaking, because the players can do it on thier own.
04/25/2005 (1:28 pm)
Yes I can understand your point Nauris,but there are a couple of reasons for this #1 the rule set was at least to my little mind, pretty complex, the fact that things could get "out of balance" is an indicator at least to me of that assertion. #2 Would be that neither ever had any of it's own servers (I could be wrong, it's been a long time since I played), and ALL of it was pretty much fan created IIRC.You combine those two issues, and you have a real recipie for trouble.
In my example you would have a REALLY simplified ruleset, everything would be pretty much based on dice rolls, with stats being a secondary bonus consideration to the die rolls, also you focus alot more on skills than primary stats. For instance a player who was REALLY good at 1hs weapons would not nessecarily need a high STR to do good damage against an enemy, as long as they were wielding a 1hs weapon. Also another consideration that I have been thinking of, is to completely remove classes from the game. You want to be an axe wielding wizard? So be it. You want to swing a blacksmiths hammer, and still be able to tailor the most delicate silks, so be it. Decide you made a mistake in your stat/skill points distribution, and feel you need to unlearn some things to get better at others. No problem, but it will cost you say 10-15% of your current point total.
Anyways, thats my thoughts on the whole balancing act with RPGs.
If you do this, what you wind up with is a game that will either be so seriously unbalanced that it is unplayable, or a fun to play game, that needs no balance tweaking, because the players can do it on thier own.
#3
It's got near 100% player-created content,
altho the content is more simple exploration & artifacts
versus the usual RPG quest type stuff.
It one of the nicest rapid prototyping 3D modellers i've seen,
with MMO physics.
04/25/2005 (1:43 pm)
You might check out second life, if you haven't already.It's got near 100% player-created content,
altho the content is more simple exploration & artifacts
versus the usual RPG quest type stuff.
It one of the nicest rapid prototyping 3D modellers i've seen,
with MMO physics.
#4
04/25/2005 (8:04 pm)
Second life is along the lines of what I'm talking about, except in second life there is more of a "Wow! Look what I can do!" aspect, vs a true immersive RPG experience crafted by the same types of people who like to get together and play D&D in their spare time. 
#5
What could work though, is using a building block system, without actually exposing them to code. Perhaps give them some limited scripting capabilties, but not on the level of true mod scripting. Design a robust system which can accomodate a wide variety of actions, and have built in checks that take place server side before any mod can go live.
For example if your letting people build their own dungeons then rather than giving them access to upload map files, instead allow them to piece together dungeons with a set of building blocks. Then after they are through designing the dungeon run a check first client side and then again server side to make sure that the building blocks fall into place. That way players can't design dungeons that will get other players, stuck, etc.
If allowing players to create quests/items/etc a similar approach could work. For items for example if you are using a level requirement type system (meaning you must be X level to wield an item) then it's pretty easy to buidl a system with proper checks and balances. Assign each attribute, proc, effect or whatever a certain points value. Multiply the level of the item by the points value and only allow an item to use so many points based on the level of the item. If your using a pure skills based system like you described above, then have it check the weapons skill rather than character level.
04/26/2005 (12:53 am)
I think in such a setup if your allowing them to actual script mods, then your making things a lot harder on yourself. You could put in some checkpoints to try to eliminate cheating but allowing scripting and trying to check and verify against that is flirting with disaster. As a game grows multipliciously there would be no way to keep up with new content and check it properly.What could work though, is using a building block system, without actually exposing them to code. Perhaps give them some limited scripting capabilties, but not on the level of true mod scripting. Design a robust system which can accomodate a wide variety of actions, and have built in checks that take place server side before any mod can go live.
For example if your letting people build their own dungeons then rather than giving them access to upload map files, instead allow them to piece together dungeons with a set of building blocks. Then after they are through designing the dungeon run a check first client side and then again server side to make sure that the building blocks fall into place. That way players can't design dungeons that will get other players, stuck, etc.
If allowing players to create quests/items/etc a similar approach could work. For items for example if you are using a level requirement type system (meaning you must be X level to wield an item) then it's pretty easy to buidl a system with proper checks and balances. Assign each attribute, proc, effect or whatever a certain points value. Multiply the level of the item by the points value and only allow an item to use so many points based on the level of the item. If your using a pure skills based system like you described above, then have it check the weapons skill rather than character level.
#6
I think you might be able to strike balance by using a sanctioned/unsanctioned system. Give the players & DM-wannabes all the tools & palettes within reason and a way to host it locally on their dime. This would be considered an unsanactioned world/dungeon. The sanctioned world would be the one running under your control.
Players are free to leave sanctioned space to play in unsanctioned worlds/dungeons but are limited in what they are able to bring back into sanctioned space. Maybe a sliding scale of rewards. Completely virgin world and unknown DM, players can't bring anything back but stories of their adventures and a "I was there" trinket.
My thinking is a trinket would be enough to get players to explore a virgin dungeon/world. The trinket would be a unique item only available when the world/dungeon is "new". It gives a player a minor reason/excuse to visit a world/dungeon. These early explorers would do the job of sorting the cream from the crap. ;) And I would guess after a DM's rep has increased, people will want to get the "I was there" trinket before his creation is added to the sanctioned world.
After a Dev/GM/Tester has ran thru this virgin world a couple times, it gets a bump up in rating and players can bring back a little xp and/or a single low-end quest item. This part here really depends on the DM reputation. Of if problems are found, the hosting DM would be expected to fix them before moving pass the "trinket" stage.
If an unsanctioned world moves pass the trinket stage, then it is up to the player base/community to decide if the unsanctioned world should become part of sanctioned space. General vote? Measure how often the world is visited? Flat out bribery? ;)
Once a world/dungeon becomes sanctioned, you host it on your equipment. At which point all the spoils of that world are available to the player-base. The creating DM gets a statue, a quest(with his name in it) pointing players to his creation and a bump up in his reputation.
Of course this system depends heavily on players willingness to visit dungeons/worlds for initally zero gain and expressing their opinions on these new worlds/dungeons. I think if you attacted enough explorers it wouldn't be too bad. And I'm guessing the different DMs would want to check out each other's work.
eh, that there is my two bits.
04/28/2005 (5:23 am)
I like the idea of player/community generated content. Can't say I'm too fond of the idea of buying "keys" to access to Joe Blow's dungeon. Hosting Joe Blow's dungeon does appear to be the best way to prevent cheating/exploiting but it increases your overhead for content of unknown quality.I think you might be able to strike balance by using a sanctioned/unsanctioned system. Give the players & DM-wannabes all the tools & palettes within reason and a way to host it locally on their dime. This would be considered an unsanactioned world/dungeon. The sanctioned world would be the one running under your control.
Players are free to leave sanctioned space to play in unsanctioned worlds/dungeons but are limited in what they are able to bring back into sanctioned space. Maybe a sliding scale of rewards. Completely virgin world and unknown DM, players can't bring anything back but stories of their adventures and a "I was there" trinket.
My thinking is a trinket would be enough to get players to explore a virgin dungeon/world. The trinket would be a unique item only available when the world/dungeon is "new". It gives a player a minor reason/excuse to visit a world/dungeon. These early explorers would do the job of sorting the cream from the crap. ;) And I would guess after a DM's rep has increased, people will want to get the "I was there" trinket before his creation is added to the sanctioned world.
After a Dev/GM/Tester has ran thru this virgin world a couple times, it gets a bump up in rating and players can bring back a little xp and/or a single low-end quest item. This part here really depends on the DM reputation. Of if problems are found, the hosting DM would be expected to fix them before moving pass the "trinket" stage.
If an unsanctioned world moves pass the trinket stage, then it is up to the player base/community to decide if the unsanctioned world should become part of sanctioned space. General vote? Measure how often the world is visited? Flat out bribery? ;)
Once a world/dungeon becomes sanctioned, you host it on your equipment. At which point all the spoils of that world are available to the player-base. The creating DM gets a statue, a quest(with his name in it) pointing players to his creation and a bump up in his reputation.
Of course this system depends heavily on players willingness to visit dungeons/worlds for initally zero gain and expressing their opinions on these new worlds/dungeons. I think if you attacted enough explorers it wouldn't be too bad. And I'm guessing the different DMs would want to check out each other's work.
eh, that there is my two bits.
#7
For items if you use unique item IDs for instances of each item, you could have the host DM reward items that they have accrued in their travels, or ones that they have purchased for redistribution somehow. When a player leaves the hosted environment the host computer could submit to the character server that they have obtained sword-12312395 and if their server was the owner of this item then it can transfer ownership to the character and remove it from the server.
For experience one approach would be that when a player exits a hosted environment, for that server to send in a list of the time slice used during each activity during their stay. For example: 25% swordfighting, 50% spellcrafting 25% idle as well as sending in their progression numbers. The character server could then apply progression, but put a cap on to how fast you could advance any area based on how much time you spent performing that activity. Meaning, if the host environment sends a value that is lower than the cap, then it is applied. If it is higher than the cap then you receive the cap value.
04/29/2005 (12:22 am)
I mentioned this in another thread, but another solution that you could use to prevent item/experience cheating on player hosted areas that would allow players to accrue items/experience there is this...For items if you use unique item IDs for instances of each item, you could have the host DM reward items that they have accrued in their travels, or ones that they have purchased for redistribution somehow. When a player leaves the hosted environment the host computer could submit to the character server that they have obtained sword-12312395 and if their server was the owner of this item then it can transfer ownership to the character and remove it from the server.
For experience one approach would be that when a player exits a hosted environment, for that server to send in a list of the time slice used during each activity during their stay. For example: 25% swordfighting, 50% spellcrafting 25% idle as well as sending in their progression numbers. The character server could then apply progression, but put a cap on to how fast you could advance any area based on how much time you spent performing that activity. Meaning, if the host environment sends a value that is lower than the cap, then it is applied. If it is higher than the cap then you receive the cap value.
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