Minions of Mirth Technology Licensing
by Prairie Games · in Torque Game Engine · 04/24/2005 (1:29 am) · 61 replies
We're considering licensing the Minions of Mirth code for commercial use. I'm interested in getting some feedback on this...
Some points:
1. A Torque + Lighting Pack license would be necessary. How the packaging comes about is something to work through if/when we decide to do this...
2. This wouldn't be a manicured code pack. It's would be a tarball of a fully functioning game, warts and all. In other words, this would not be a "beginner's pack" and it wouldn't be small and contained... This is a system, it isn't meant to be sliced, diced, and cut into components.
3. The game and much of the supporting technology is written in the Python language. There are also significant modifications to Torque, some of these modifications could be labeled as "hacks"... others are downright inspired :)
4. There would be no direct support provided by me and very little documentation... This is consistent with "indie culture"... For instance, the Torque EULA doesn't provide any insurance of support. Nor do any code packs provided on this site. We cannot guarantee direct support... though, forums, bug trackers, etc are possible...
It would be my hope that some people would like to improve the tech, defend it, and help others understand it. This is beyond my control. If someone is indignant about not receiving direct support after agreeing to a EULA, this is also beyond my control.
5. Making a cool, original RPG, is a whole lotta work any way you cut it.
6. Minions of Mirth specific spells, characters, quests, items, etc would be included as examples, though could not be used in derivative works.
7. We would potentially do an "Early Adopter" release which would be before the game ships. "Early Adopters" would be entitled to code updates and would receive the shipping version of the game's code, once it's complete. Any "Early Adopter" licenses would be extremely low priority for us until MoM ships...
8. Windows and OSX builds, and packaging systems, would be included (the OSX build isn't currently together, though will be soon)...
9. The Master, World, and Zone Servers would be included... also, the Client and World Manager (for player's hosting their own worlds).
10. The game code supports single and multiplayer game modes. There's also database config/persistency stuff, server admin, quests, spell casting, zoning, integrated day/night cycles with weather, spawns, inventory, communication channels, simplified character animation system with material based clothing, etc... and so much more...
11. We would potentially be interested in contracting with someone to maintain the licensed code, document, cleanup some of the uglier stuff, etc
Alright, that's enough of that for now...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious what people think a license should cost?
I am 100% confident in the game and technology. What I am not confident in is this market. What percentage of people will look over the code for 2 minutes, decide that it either sucks or it really is a ton of work to make a RPG, and complain until we refunded them?
Other comments? Ideas?
Thanks,
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Some points:
1. A Torque + Lighting Pack license would be necessary. How the packaging comes about is something to work through if/when we decide to do this...
2. This wouldn't be a manicured code pack. It's would be a tarball of a fully functioning game, warts and all. In other words, this would not be a "beginner's pack" and it wouldn't be small and contained... This is a system, it isn't meant to be sliced, diced, and cut into components.
3. The game and much of the supporting technology is written in the Python language. There are also significant modifications to Torque, some of these modifications could be labeled as "hacks"... others are downright inspired :)
4. There would be no direct support provided by me and very little documentation... This is consistent with "indie culture"... For instance, the Torque EULA doesn't provide any insurance of support. Nor do any code packs provided on this site. We cannot guarantee direct support... though, forums, bug trackers, etc are possible...
It would be my hope that some people would like to improve the tech, defend it, and help others understand it. This is beyond my control. If someone is indignant about not receiving direct support after agreeing to a EULA, this is also beyond my control.
5. Making a cool, original RPG, is a whole lotta work any way you cut it.
6. Minions of Mirth specific spells, characters, quests, items, etc would be included as examples, though could not be used in derivative works.
7. We would potentially do an "Early Adopter" release which would be before the game ships. "Early Adopters" would be entitled to code updates and would receive the shipping version of the game's code, once it's complete. Any "Early Adopter" licenses would be extremely low priority for us until MoM ships...
8. Windows and OSX builds, and packaging systems, would be included (the OSX build isn't currently together, though will be soon)...
9. The Master, World, and Zone Servers would be included... also, the Client and World Manager (for player's hosting their own worlds).
10. The game code supports single and multiplayer game modes. There's also database config/persistency stuff, server admin, quests, spell casting, zoning, integrated day/night cycles with weather, spawns, inventory, communication channels, simplified character animation system with material based clothing, etc... and so much more...
11. We would potentially be interested in contracting with someone to maintain the licensed code, document, cleanup some of the uglier stuff, etc
Alright, that's enough of that for now...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious what people think a license should cost?
I am 100% confident in the game and technology. What I am not confident in is this market. What percentage of people will look over the code for 2 minutes, decide that it either sucks or it really is a ton of work to make a RPG, and complain until we refunded them?
Other comments? Ideas?
Thanks,
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#22
04/24/2005 (7:02 pm)
I agree completely... right now I'm using Blender :) My team's goal is to save for Max vs spending any on another software 
#24
This would be more of a:
RPG Game Pack than a "Code Pack" or "Starter Pack" ... as in, a full featured game to develop with... built with components, though not a component itself. I think this is a bit of a different mindset.
We're also talking about a RPG content creation toolchain here...
I should probably list the (extensive) feature list when I get a moment ;)
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
04/25/2005 (6:29 am)
Much like Torque, the real value is in the system as a whole. Slicing and dicing isn't much of an option. This would be more of a:
RPG Game Pack than a "Code Pack" or "Starter Pack" ... as in, a full featured game to develop with... built with components, though not a component itself. I think this is a bit of a different mindset.
We're also talking about a RPG content creation toolchain here...
I should probably list the (extensive) feature list when I get a moment ;)
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#25
04/25/2005 (7:38 am)
That doesn't mean I wouldn't strip it like bad paint job.
#26
As far as support, as long as there is a place I can ask questions (aka forums, etc) then I don't have a problem. Would be like dealing with torque.
04/25/2005 (8:20 am)
I would probably buy it to learn from. I'm not making an RPG but different aspects may apply and I can see how you implemented them. As far as support, as long as there is a place I can ask questions (aka forums, etc) then I don't have a problem. Would be like dealing with torque.
#27
04/25/2005 (8:28 am)
A support forum like what Torque has is plenty of support for me. If there are more than 1 or 2 users, questions will get answered pretty quickly I'm sure :)
#28
04/25/2005 (8:33 am)
I like the idea of selling it, however make sure you do charge at least $500 for it, it will weed out the folks who aren't really interested in learning the code. 
#30
04/25/2005 (8:40 am)
Perhaps you could have 2 licenses... A learners license and a commercial license. I would not pay 500+ $ for something ot learn from. But if I was going to use it to publish my game I might be a little more open to the idea.
#31
Don't even think about selling this product unless you do all of the following:
1. Clean up all code and make sure it is well commented.
2. Produce documentation for every aspect of the system and present it in a clean, well-organized fashion
3. Test the new clean code and documentation with a group of test developers
4. Fix everything you found out in #3 and re-do #1 based on your findings
5. Plan to support the product. Support is extremely important.
6. Realize that your primary business is now support and maintenance of this product and not your game. Unless you can field 2 teams.
This may seem a little crazy, but it's reality.
04/25/2005 (9:59 am)
Here are my comments.Don't even think about selling this product unless you do all of the following:
1. Clean up all code and make sure it is well commented.
2. Produce documentation for every aspect of the system and present it in a clean, well-organized fashion
3. Test the new clean code and documentation with a group of test developers
4. Fix everything you found out in #3 and re-do #1 based on your findings
5. Plan to support the product. Support is extremely important.
6. Realize that your primary business is now support and maintenance of this product and not your game. Unless you can field 2 teams.
This may seem a little crazy, but it's reality.
#32
Depending on the price he would release this at he can release it "as is" with limited support... I'd still buy it
04/25/2005 (10:16 am)
I'd disagree with 6.Depending on the price he would release this at he can release it "as is" with limited support... I'd still buy it
#33
This is quickly getting bigger than what I can produce as a single programmer (+ a whole bunch of other responsibilities on the project). We will need help to achieve such requirements.
I'm working on the OSX build right now. The dependency graph and build system are more or less nuts. This is going to be "interesting". :)
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
04/25/2005 (10:16 am)
Yup. That's crazy and makes absolute sense. The learning curve would be incredibly steep and confusing at this point... there's a ton there and it isn't always laid out as clearly as could be.This is quickly getting bigger than what I can produce as a single programmer (+ a whole bunch of other responsibilities on the project). We will need help to achieve such requirements.
I'm working on the OSX build right now. The dependency graph and build system are more or less nuts. This is going to be "interesting". :)
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#34
Don't get me wrong though. I'm not trying to discourage you from this. I am facing a very similar task myself with some products I am developing. I definitely say go for it. Just don't rush it or throw it out there in a hack state. Go the extra mile and do everything required to make it a solid, robust solution.
04/25/2005 (10:33 am)
Josh, this is definitely where it gets interesting. It's one thing to spend thousands of hours making a system work for yourself and quite a different thing making is useable and understandable fo other people. You are about to find out how many hundreds or thousands of hours are required to make a product marketable. Don't get me wrong though. I'm not trying to discourage you from this. I am facing a very similar task myself with some products I am developing. I definitely say go for it. Just don't rush it or throw it out there in a hack state. Go the extra mile and do everything required to make it a solid, robust solution.
#35
I am not under any delusions about the MoM technology. It works, it supports a cool game, and the functionality turns heads. It's also been a lot of work, protoyping, and research to get here. As-is an experienced team could crank out something really cool with it.
It's also built on great components, even if it isn't a component itself. A game is a creative work. I have written many, many games and several engines. I have also looked at piles and piles of game source code. Game code is generally quite fugly as it's written quickly for a very specific task.
Anyway, we are game company. Right now, job #1 is to ship a great game.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
04/25/2005 (10:56 am)
Well, there is a balance to be found. Garage Games has done a stellar job with Torque... and it's taken many years of work... by a lot of people... I am not so sure we can achieve this standard.I am not under any delusions about the MoM technology. It works, it supports a cool game, and the functionality turns heads. It's also been a lot of work, protoyping, and research to get here. As-is an experienced team could crank out something really cool with it.
It's also built on great components, even if it isn't a component itself. A game is a creative work. I have written many, many games and several engines. I have also looked at piles and piles of game source code. Game code is generally quite fugly as it's written quickly for a very specific task.
Anyway, we are game company. Right now, job #1 is to ship a great game.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#36
The discussion was around anyone open sourcing such a thing and we all had a good laugh (they were thinking about current top 10 games - Quake came up). We mentioned issues of modders making rogue server based games impossible to play with the cheats so easily implemented with all the source, etc. But - MoM did come up in the conversation and here is a thread not 2 days past.
I think your price point is fair, if you only want serious commercial 'indie' developers to purchase (my seat of the pants estimate is maybe a dozen teams would value this code base enough to come up with $500). It might be hard to price it for educational licensing as our $50 per seat on TGE can be a stopper at times.
The promise and the expectation of support are two different animals, but I understand your point.
04/25/2005 (10:59 am)
Josh - I was just in a class room at the Art Institute of SF and this very question came up. They wanted to see a full on game under the hood - warts and all (of course they wanted Tribes 2, but that is another story).The discussion was around anyone open sourcing such a thing and we all had a good laugh (they were thinking about current top 10 games - Quake came up). We mentioned issues of modders making rogue server based games impossible to play with the cheats so easily implemented with all the source, etc. But - MoM did come up in the conversation and here is a thread not 2 days past.
I think your price point is fair, if you only want serious commercial 'indie' developers to purchase (my seat of the pants estimate is maybe a dozen teams would value this code base enough to come up with $500). It might be hard to price it for educational licensing as our $50 per seat on TGE can be a stopper at times.
The promise and the expectation of support are two different animals, but I understand your point.
#37
04/25/2005 (11:03 am)
@Jay just kinda curious here, what would you and/or your class value this product at, if he was attempting to reach out to the GG community in general and create the ever promised but always missing Starter.RPG type of kit?
#38
I really do like the idea of a Game Pack now with 10% more warts!!!! A cool, successful, and released game completely validates those warts in my mind. :)
There's more to this than making some quick bucks from the technology. It would be great to have teams working and improving the stuff. I have always been a fan of collaboration.
One of these days, the last gleam of idealism will have escaped me... and on that day I'll retire :)
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Edit: At the same time, we don't want a pile of knock offs... I know how much work it is to create MoM's content... but still, flooding the market with stuff that looks like the game, at least at surface level, may not be so good for us.
04/25/2005 (11:09 am)
@Jay: "I think your price point is fair" - I've been very careful not to mention a price... any price isn't coming from me in this thread :) I really do like the idea of a Game Pack now with 10% more warts!!!! A cool, successful, and released game completely validates those warts in my mind. :)
There's more to this than making some quick bucks from the technology. It would be great to have teams working and improving the stuff. I have always been a fan of collaboration.
One of these days, the last gleam of idealism will have escaped me... and on that day I'll retire :)
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Edit: At the same time, we don't want a pile of knock offs... I know how much work it is to create MoM's content... but still, flooding the market with stuff that looks like the game, at least at surface level, may not be so good for us.
#39
04/25/2005 (11:22 am)
Well, if someone is dedicated enough to take the time to reproduce enough content to make a game with as much depth as MoM then it probably wont just be a knock off. And I doubt there are enough people with this kind of dedication to flood the market.
#40
Also if you want a stable Linux build, you got my email and yes I am volunteering.
04/25/2005 (11:22 am)
@Josh you could always steal err um borrow my concept of fully supporting fan/player created content in a single cohesive environment, it would probably take a little re-tooling since I don't think this is quite what you had in mind from the beginning, but I'ld be glad to help ya!Also if you want a stable Linux build, you got my email and yes I am volunteering.
Employee David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake
I like all of the major apps, and can understand why artists use different apps for different purposes (as long as they fit into their workflow). I also like free applications like Blender (though I initially hated the interface, once I went through the first few chapters of the Blender manual, I figured out the workflow methodology) and low-cost applications like Milkshape. Sure, there are limitations that the higher applications don't have, but often they have some game-related features that are more beneficial than the hoops that we have to jump through with commercial applications.