Forum Decorum :)
by Stephen Zepp · in Torque Game Builder · 04/12/2005 (3:42 pm) · 31 replies
I've been meaning to get around to this for a while, but finally was able to find the time to track down some posts, so here I go!
[soapbox]
One of the biggest strengths of TAP (Torque Application Platform) products is in fact not the products themselves, but the community that surrounds them. We have a rich mix of people from all walks of life, dozens of countries, and an amazing array of experience in software, hardware, gaming, and life itself. The community is for the most part extremely helpful, extremely generous, and in general one of the most mature, informative, and friendly internet forums I've ever seen (and I've been doing the internet forum thing for like a dozen years now).
Early on (and I've only been a part of the community for just over a year now, so this part is only from research, not personal experience), the forum was a small set of folks with extremely similar backgrounds, and extremely similar goals--help each other make games using TGE. The ratio of GG employees to regular community members was pretty high, because the community just wasn't that big--and that allowed for the GG developers as well as other staff members to participate in a very large percentage of discussions and question/answer sessions, because the traffic was very low--they could spend an hour answering all of the questions for the day, and give good, detailed answers.
As a side effect of success, the community has grown amazingly, and with the release of T2D, we've realized another exponential growth spurt. This is a Good Thing(tm), but along with that comes a lot of possible conflict due to varying posting styles, and the extreme difficulty to express emotion and point of view in a text only forum. GarageGames is an extremely "liberal" forum area when it comes to moderation, but in part the success of the forum relies on self-moderation, and the ability of all members to "put themselves in other's shoes" when it comes to how posting styles are used.
As just about everyone knows, the forum best serves the GG community as a source of information, both in direct question/answer, as well as a reference for various topics. As such, it differs in some ways from a less focused "discussion community", because while there are no strict rules as to how people should post, how questions should be asked and answered, and how people should interact, there are some guidelines that help to make everyone willing to share their experience to the most benefit for everyone.
(cont)
[soapbox]
One of the biggest strengths of TAP (Torque Application Platform) products is in fact not the products themselves, but the community that surrounds them. We have a rich mix of people from all walks of life, dozens of countries, and an amazing array of experience in software, hardware, gaming, and life itself. The community is for the most part extremely helpful, extremely generous, and in general one of the most mature, informative, and friendly internet forums I've ever seen (and I've been doing the internet forum thing for like a dozen years now).
Early on (and I've only been a part of the community for just over a year now, so this part is only from research, not personal experience), the forum was a small set of folks with extremely similar backgrounds, and extremely similar goals--help each other make games using TGE. The ratio of GG employees to regular community members was pretty high, because the community just wasn't that big--and that allowed for the GG developers as well as other staff members to participate in a very large percentage of discussions and question/answer sessions, because the traffic was very low--they could spend an hour answering all of the questions for the day, and give good, detailed answers.
As a side effect of success, the community has grown amazingly, and with the release of T2D, we've realized another exponential growth spurt. This is a Good Thing(tm), but along with that comes a lot of possible conflict due to varying posting styles, and the extreme difficulty to express emotion and point of view in a text only forum. GarageGames is an extremely "liberal" forum area when it comes to moderation, but in part the success of the forum relies on self-moderation, and the ability of all members to "put themselves in other's shoes" when it comes to how posting styles are used.
As just about everyone knows, the forum best serves the GG community as a source of information, both in direct question/answer, as well as a reference for various topics. As such, it differs in some ways from a less focused "discussion community", because while there are no strict rules as to how people should post, how questions should be asked and answered, and how people should interact, there are some guidelines that help to make everyone willing to share their experience to the most benefit for everyone.
(cont)
#22
What we need is a good "citizens auxillary forums police" (I stole that from Phil Hendrie Show). *humor
04/16/2005 (8:32 am)
Man forget that stupid fight about the GG logo in the startup.. hell i'll get a GG tattoo :) What we need is a good "citizens auxillary forums police" (I stole that from Phil Hendrie Show). *humor
#23
This might be a good thing for you. It'll help keep the stress down somewhat and let you focus your energy elsewhere. Perhaps only keeping track of things like the Showoff area or the Torque for Artists section so that you can see what people are actually producing as opposed to the things they want to produce could help. Plus, I'm sure you'll hear about it in the office anyway. You already have your finger on the pulse of indie development. Having your finger on the pulse of a forum in transition can be deadly.
04/16/2005 (10:11 am)
@JeffThis might be a good thing for you. It'll help keep the stress down somewhat and let you focus your energy elsewhere. Perhaps only keeping track of things like the Showoff area or the Torque for Artists section so that you can see what people are actually producing as opposed to the things they want to produce could help. Plus, I'm sure you'll hear about it in the office anyway. You already have your finger on the pulse of indie development. Having your finger on the pulse of a forum in transition can be deadly.
#24
04/16/2005 (11:33 am)
Aye Karumba! lol
#25
I have to agree with Jason Cahill on this. You can't be terribly surprised. You've got a "game engine" (a concept that only 1 in 20 people who aspire to use one fully understands) that is priced low enough for anybody with $100 to spend can attempt to play out their fantasies about making the next great game (game development being a concept that only 1 in 50 people, at best, who aspire to it fully understands). You can't not expect people who have no buisness considering making games with their level of skill showing up on the forums.
Add to this that you never really tell people what it is that they're buying until after they've purchased it and now have the right to post on your forums. All you really say about it is "game engine" (see above) and rattle off a list of features. This is useful information for people who actually can make games, but under the watchful gaze of a neophyte or some ignorant aspirant, all he sees is the feature list for his next game.
What you really need to do to ward off the "ignorant" (and I wouldn't suggest this, as you'd make less money overall. It may be annoying to have the ignorant show up and post insipid questions, but they did buy the engine. In a way, they are subsidizing our engine) is to use less marketting-speak and more technical-speak. Rather than having bullet points, have entire paragraphs devoted to explaining the particulars of each feature. Detail exactly what can and can't be done with each feature. The "ignorant" will feel inadiquate when gifted with such verbosity and will quickly flee in terror.
04/16/2005 (11:55 pm)
Quote:Here's the kind of junk that people post to hide the fact that they don't have the skills necessary to do anything useful with the TGE...
I have to agree with Jason Cahill on this. You can't be terribly surprised. You've got a "game engine" (a concept that only 1 in 20 people who aspire to use one fully understands) that is priced low enough for anybody with $100 to spend can attempt to play out their fantasies about making the next great game (game development being a concept that only 1 in 50 people, at best, who aspire to it fully understands). You can't not expect people who have no buisness considering making games with their level of skill showing up on the forums.
Add to this that you never really tell people what it is that they're buying until after they've purchased it and now have the right to post on your forums. All you really say about it is "game engine" (see above) and rattle off a list of features. This is useful information for people who actually can make games, but under the watchful gaze of a neophyte or some ignorant aspirant, all he sees is the feature list for his next game.
What you really need to do to ward off the "ignorant" (and I wouldn't suggest this, as you'd make less money overall. It may be annoying to have the ignorant show up and post insipid questions, but they did buy the engine. In a way, they are subsidizing our engine) is to use less marketting-speak and more technical-speak. Rather than having bullet points, have entire paragraphs devoted to explaining the particulars of each feature. Detail exactly what can and can't be done with each feature. The "ignorant" will feel inadiquate when gifted with such verbosity and will quickly flee in terror.
#26
Anyhoo, I agree with smaug, to an extent. There should be a way to ward off ignorant sods who blaspheme and cause great stress to people who read their pathetic squealings, like so many overstuffed turkeys. But for those who do sneak past the fox, just be nice to them until they realise that this isn't the place for them and they leave of their own accord. They might not understand game-programming, even with an engine like torque et al, but they could have contacts who do, and it would be bad for business if people go away feeling as if they've just been treat like a stupid fool, better for them to tell their mates "Yeah I couldn't understand what was goin on, but the community was real supportive."
Also, it seems kind of unfair on the programmer and designer to have to make personal posts in the forum justifying the work they are directly involved in. A: answering repeated questions gets quickly tiring and eats into precsious dev-time, and B: like any person directly involved in something, it can be difficult to handle negative criticism of YOUR work, it saps morale and causes ambivilance. I for one think it would be nice for the GG community and employees if there was someone who was not quite so directly involved in the creation of the engines, but who was technically full-bottle on them, that could handle these kinds of criticisms in a more detatched and diplomatic way. Community spirit only stretches so far in my experience, but I suppose if what GG says about its financial situation is true, you probably couldn't afford a PR person to lurk in the forums all day anyway. Although it would probably ultimately be good for business.
Then everything will be perfect and peachy, and flowers will blossom.
I wish no one any hard feelings, however its kind of depressing to come into a forum as a new member and read a thread that bashes new members in one way or another. You can't blame the ignorant for their lot, if they knew better they would not be ignorant. I know from now on I will choose my words very carefully when I post here, in case someone gets upset. Maybe its just theres an influx of new people in here after the EA release, and theres some kind of jockeying for rank going on, so that everyone knows where they stand on some kind of elitist ladder. Heh, just kidding.
One more thing before I snip my rant, and while I still feel like saying what I think, how can you expect that every new member has read the relevant .plans, or knows how to use the resources and faqs? Some kind of sticky thread with those in would be uber-cool, but hopefully written in a friendly manner, rather than an irritated one.
Anyhow, l8r ppl, gtg, cya rofl a/s/l???
edit
p.s. in case I didn't make myself clear, I am so tired of seeing this exact same thread in every discussion group I've ever been in. Why can't people just get along!!!! Argh! Life's too short to waste on this kind of crap. Yikes, I just wasted 15 minutes! Argh!~ heh.
04/18/2005 (4:46 am)
I've got a suggestion at this point, I think I'm beginning to grasp the frustration that GG employees, indeed any person, would feel at being asked the same thing over and over again (generally by different people, so you can't blame them for being ignorant right?). Does this forum support sticky threads. How about a forum area for absolute beginners that contains an index of frequent noob questions. I know theres a FAQ but theres not much in there yet, when will it be finished? Please tie my shoelaces heh. Anyhoo, I agree with smaug, to an extent. There should be a way to ward off ignorant sods who blaspheme and cause great stress to people who read their pathetic squealings, like so many overstuffed turkeys. But for those who do sneak past the fox, just be nice to them until they realise that this isn't the place for them and they leave of their own accord. They might not understand game-programming, even with an engine like torque et al, but they could have contacts who do, and it would be bad for business if people go away feeling as if they've just been treat like a stupid fool, better for them to tell their mates "Yeah I couldn't understand what was goin on, but the community was real supportive."
Also, it seems kind of unfair on the programmer and designer to have to make personal posts in the forum justifying the work they are directly involved in. A: answering repeated questions gets quickly tiring and eats into precsious dev-time, and B: like any person directly involved in something, it can be difficult to handle negative criticism of YOUR work, it saps morale and causes ambivilance. I for one think it would be nice for the GG community and employees if there was someone who was not quite so directly involved in the creation of the engines, but who was technically full-bottle on them, that could handle these kinds of criticisms in a more detatched and diplomatic way. Community spirit only stretches so far in my experience, but I suppose if what GG says about its financial situation is true, you probably couldn't afford a PR person to lurk in the forums all day anyway. Although it would probably ultimately be good for business.
Then everything will be perfect and peachy, and flowers will blossom.
I wish no one any hard feelings, however its kind of depressing to come into a forum as a new member and read a thread that bashes new members in one way or another. You can't blame the ignorant for their lot, if they knew better they would not be ignorant. I know from now on I will choose my words very carefully when I post here, in case someone gets upset. Maybe its just theres an influx of new people in here after the EA release, and theres some kind of jockeying for rank going on, so that everyone knows where they stand on some kind of elitist ladder. Heh, just kidding.
One more thing before I snip my rant, and while I still feel like saying what I think, how can you expect that every new member has read the relevant .plans, or knows how to use the resources and faqs? Some kind of sticky thread with those in would be uber-cool, but hopefully written in a friendly manner, rather than an irritated one.
Anyhow, l8r ppl, gtg, cya rofl a/s/l???
edit
p.s. in case I didn't make myself clear, I am so tired of seeing this exact same thread in every discussion group I've ever been in. Why can't people just get along!!!! Argh! Life's too short to waste on this kind of crap. Yikes, I just wasted 15 minutes! Argh!~ heh.
#27
An important thing to think about here is that this category (negative criticism of code/technique/design/whatever) actually tends to be more bothersome to dev's when it comes from experienced dev's, and/or those that at least pretend to be experienced. Not a few people come to TAP, review it very briefly (and in my opinion, until you've worked with TAP for at least 4-6 months, any comments you have are from a "brief" review), and then start saying "you should have done it this way", "that's not the proper way to do things", "this is broken/won't work/sucks, I would have done it better".
These are the posts that can be the most difficult to swallow--you can ignore the guys that obviously don't have a clue about what they are talking about, but when a post from an experienced dev (not TAP, but otherwise) has some kernels of truth (or simply misunderstanding backed by solid background knowledge), but are presented in an "in your face" style, a dev tends to completely miss the actual content of the post, and simply "spiral up" emotionally on the tone...most of the time (at least from my perspective, and some other dev's at GG I have spoken to as well), you get one of two primary reactions:
1) "If you think that's the way it should be done, go spend the years we did and do it yourself from scratch. THIS is the way it is in T2D/TGE/TSE."--obviously, not the best reaction, because what the person is saying probably has some very valid merit...but it's the reaction dev's have nonetheless.
2) "What do you want for $50/$100/$150?"--again, not a good reaction, but this happens as well. I know that I am an extremely rare case, but I'm an Independent Consultant that happens to be extremely qualified and experienced in my field--on a par with the GG dev's in their field (game engine development). Personally, I make between $100 and $175 an hour...and while I know how extreme that is, I also know that Josh, Melv, Ben, Mark, Brian, and the rest of the GG dev crew are just as experienced in their field as I am in mine, and in a perfect world would be getting the same type of monetary compensation. GG isn't about making tons of cash however--it's about making excellent technology available to the lowest denomination of consumer (financially, not technically) for the purposes of letting the world make games. Many of the posts about "this should be free/part of the base package" drive folks nuts due to this situation as well.
It's an excellent idea, and one that GG is fully aware of, and has plans to implement.
That's why I started this thread!
04/18/2005 (6:04 am)
Please note that I'm not pointing any specific fingers here at all: I am a firm believer in the Japanese principle of "Fix the problem, not the blame".Quote:B: like any person directly involved in something, it can be difficult to handle negative criticism of YOUR work, it saps morale and causes ambivilance.
An important thing to think about here is that this category (negative criticism of code/technique/design/whatever) actually tends to be more bothersome to dev's when it comes from experienced dev's, and/or those that at least pretend to be experienced. Not a few people come to TAP, review it very briefly (and in my opinion, until you've worked with TAP for at least 4-6 months, any comments you have are from a "brief" review), and then start saying "you should have done it this way", "that's not the proper way to do things", "this is broken/won't work/sucks, I would have done it better".
These are the posts that can be the most difficult to swallow--you can ignore the guys that obviously don't have a clue about what they are talking about, but when a post from an experienced dev (not TAP, but otherwise) has some kernels of truth (or simply misunderstanding backed by solid background knowledge), but are presented in an "in your face" style, a dev tends to completely miss the actual content of the post, and simply "spiral up" emotionally on the tone...most of the time (at least from my perspective, and some other dev's at GG I have spoken to as well), you get one of two primary reactions:
1) "If you think that's the way it should be done, go spend the years we did and do it yourself from scratch. THIS is the way it is in T2D/TGE/TSE."--obviously, not the best reaction, because what the person is saying probably has some very valid merit...but it's the reaction dev's have nonetheless.
2) "What do you want for $50/$100/$150?"--again, not a good reaction, but this happens as well. I know that I am an extremely rare case, but I'm an Independent Consultant that happens to be extremely qualified and experienced in my field--on a par with the GG dev's in their field (game engine development). Personally, I make between $100 and $175 an hour...and while I know how extreme that is, I also know that Josh, Melv, Ben, Mark, Brian, and the rest of the GG dev crew are just as experienced in their field as I am in mine, and in a perfect world would be getting the same type of monetary compensation. GG isn't about making tons of cash however--it's about making excellent technology available to the lowest denomination of consumer (financially, not technically) for the purposes of letting the world make games. Many of the posts about "this should be free/part of the base package" drive folks nuts due to this situation as well.
Quote:I for one think it would be nice for the GG community and employees if there was someone who was not quite so directly involved in the creation of the engines, but who was technically full-bottle on them, that could handle these kinds of criticisms in a more detatched and diplomatic way. Community spirit only stretches so far in my experience, but I suppose if what GG says about its financial situation is true, you probably couldn't afford a PR person to lurk in the forums all day anyway. Although it would probably ultimately be good for business.
It's an excellent idea, and one that GG is fully aware of, and has plans to implement.
Quote:
One more thing before I snip my rant, and while I still feel like saying what I think, how can you expect that every new member has read the relevant .plans, or knows how to use the resources and faqs? Some kind of sticky thread with those in would be uber-cool, but hopefully written in a friendly manner, rather than an irritated one.
That's why I started this thread!
#28
I guess what I am saying is that you are very justified in saying "If you think you can do better, go right ahead mate". Theres bound to be a few different mentalities of people who purchase torque, i.e. A:the game maker who just wants to make games, B:the lost soul who thought it was klik-n-play 2005, and C: the game engine programmer who is going to cross-examine and reverse engineer torque for educational purposes. A is the good kind (ie Me) and should be supported the most, because they are the whole reason torque exists. B you must take pity on and try to guide them to a more suitable path. C will suck you dry if you let them, because everyone can do better in theory, but in practice you have deadlines so shortcuts get made, that kind of thing. C might be helpful if they release their code changes to the public, but if they just constantly criticise your design and implimentation all day long, tell them to go and make their own engine/go and jump/do something constructive for a change.
anyway, your hourly rate is amazingly good. I make $15 an hour as a laborer. Thats in australian dollars, so its like $11 or $12 US. I wanna be rich too! :) jk, I'm happy being poor.
04/18/2005 (7:13 am)
Stephen, I understand completely. I have been in on a few of open source projects over the years, some of them my own, and the trouble with showing your code is that some smart arse software engineer will come along with the exclusive goal of picking your work to pieces. It doesn't matter how good the interface is to them, or how well the code is commented. You should have used a factory there instead of the spaghetti code cross-referencing mess you got there... so off you go and spend a month re-writing to impliment a factory. Then they tell you oh you should have used singleton here, rather than all these global variables... So its another month of redesign. Then another (also experienced) programmer will come and say the exact opposite, like, why are you using all this excessive software design bull, just write what you need to make it work, see if you start from your main loop, and just add functions as you need them, it cuts the development time in half and functions make more sense that weird abstract classes that give no clue as to what they actually do!I guess what I am saying is that you are very justified in saying "If you think you can do better, go right ahead mate". Theres bound to be a few different mentalities of people who purchase torque, i.e. A:the game maker who just wants to make games, B:the lost soul who thought it was klik-n-play 2005, and C: the game engine programmer who is going to cross-examine and reverse engineer torque for educational purposes. A is the good kind (ie Me) and should be supported the most, because they are the whole reason torque exists. B you must take pity on and try to guide them to a more suitable path. C will suck you dry if you let them, because everyone can do better in theory, but in practice you have deadlines so shortcuts get made, that kind of thing. C might be helpful if they release their code changes to the public, but if they just constantly criticise your design and implimentation all day long, tell them to go and make their own engine/go and jump/do something constructive for a change.
anyway, your hourly rate is amazingly good. I make $15 an hour as a laborer. Thats in australian dollars, so its like $11 or $12 US. I wanna be rich too! :) jk, I'm happy being poor.
#29
My point about that is exactly yours though--the products are what they are--an excellent framework for making games. GG does the best they can to keep things as generic and game-agnostic as possible, but along the way you not only have to make decisions about implementation styles to support the widest audience (think of TGEScript here), but you also have code that sneaks in, and/or design styles that show up that can be picked apart by those that choose to.
For the prices offered, I personally certainly take note of just how much it's really worth, and ignore the price I actually paid!
04/18/2005 (8:11 am)
Heh..Independent Consulting is a hit or miss field though--I don't have steady work, and I've gone as much as 21 months without a contract--and trust me, after you eat up everything you've saved from that "good contract", it's back to ramen noodles time!My point about that is exactly yours though--the products are what they are--an excellent framework for making games. GG does the best they can to keep things as generic and game-agnostic as possible, but along the way you not only have to make decisions about implementation styles to support the widest audience (think of TGEScript here), but you also have code that sneaks in, and/or design styles that show up that can be picked apart by those that choose to.
For the prices offered, I personally certainly take note of just how much it's really worth, and ignore the price I actually paid!
#30
What we won't allow though, because it mires the spirit here, is personal attacks. There have been instances in this forum where people mention Melv or I by name and start laying into us. That's not cool. In other instances, there are cases where people say "I think you lack a fundamental understanding of ....". Besides being personally insulting, comments like that are doubly irksome when they come from a person who clearly does not understand the subject they're yelling at you about half as well as you yourself do-- which, if I can be a little immodest here, has been the case in every such instances so far. :)
I certainly would never allow community members to attack each other personally. I just don't think it makes for a very nice, helpful forum when people are getting personally attacked. Same thing applies for personal attacks against devs, we're people and community members too.
So, that's the only part that bothers me. Feedback and sticking to technical issues, without veiled personal insults and whatnot, is totally welcome. Again, courteous wording is cool, but even strongly worded technical feedback is alright. Strongly worded personal "feedback", whether to a GG dev or to any other community member, can't be tolerated though. This place would suck if it were.
Just to note: there really haven't been many problems at all around here. We're all very happy with the T2D forums and community. Out of thousands of posts, from people with all varying levels of skill, expertise, and forum experience, there have only been a few problematic replies. Going much better than I think we expected. So, we don't need to get hypersensitive around here or anything. :) It's all good.
04/19/2005 (8:53 am)
Well, personally, I have no problem whatsoever with people saying that things should be done this way or that. Whether it's an experienced dev or not, ideas are always welcome. I don't think I've personally demonstrated otherwise here. :) Whether things are worded strongly or not doesn't make *that* big a deal to me, when we're talking about the actual technical content. Courteousy is always appreciated, and of course, the style and tone with which feedback is offered plays a part in how seriously I take a person. But strongly worded technical thoughts aren't bad.What we won't allow though, because it mires the spirit here, is personal attacks. There have been instances in this forum where people mention Melv or I by name and start laying into us. That's not cool. In other instances, there are cases where people say "I think you lack a fundamental understanding of ....". Besides being personally insulting, comments like that are doubly irksome when they come from a person who clearly does not understand the subject they're yelling at you about half as well as you yourself do-- which, if I can be a little immodest here, has been the case in every such instances so far. :)
I certainly would never allow community members to attack each other personally. I just don't think it makes for a very nice, helpful forum when people are getting personally attacked. Same thing applies for personal attacks against devs, we're people and community members too.
So, that's the only part that bothers me. Feedback and sticking to technical issues, without veiled personal insults and whatnot, is totally welcome. Again, courteous wording is cool, but even strongly worded technical feedback is alright. Strongly worded personal "feedback", whether to a GG dev or to any other community member, can't be tolerated though. This place would suck if it were.
Just to note: there really haven't been many problems at all around here. We're all very happy with the T2D forums and community. Out of thousands of posts, from people with all varying levels of skill, expertise, and forum experience, there have only been a few problematic replies. Going much better than I think we expected. So, we don't need to get hypersensitive around here or anything. :) It's all good.
#31
04/19/2005 (5:23 pm)
I have to agree with Josh the content in the forums. There have been a few bumps along the way, but that is what you get with such a large and diverse community. There are going to be posts that are negative. There are also going to be posts that make you angry. If you just ignore them, and move on, it will just better the quality of the forums. At least that's my opinion. 
Associate Melv May
Also, you'll find the same stuff in the public forums. This isn't a customer thing. We are eternally greatful for everyone purchasing T2D but there still has to be rules and a common understanding is a good thing to have. :)
@Alex: It's pretty cool that your experience on the forums has been very positive and I'd like to think that this was the case for most people. I'd like to also think that we're not really talking about yelling and screaming and that we're really discussing the experience from the people behind the scenes running the GG site and the associates who try their best to be positive but sometimes get dragged into things less positive and professional.
Establishing rules and exposing the kind of things that drive people "nuts" is a good thing. My experience is that the GG site in general is one of the best sites around for game-developers and actually has very little active-moderation. There are so many sites with heavy moderation and they are still a waste of good disk-space!
Stephen is kinda "doing the rounds" here in trying to reestablish a set of rules to live by on the forums.
It may be like sticking your fingers in the holes appearing in a damn with more appearing all the time so we're trying to reduce the water-pressure a little. ;)
If it wasn't for the :) or the :( how would be communicate emotion? We need a better symbollic system!
- Melv.