Using Max for .dif creation?
by Jedive · in Artist Corner · 03/25/2005 (7:33 am) · 59 replies
Well, my team has been working with some engines to power the game Myths of Leindar: Century. We are 4 people working on the game: one coder (me), one 3D artist, one 2D artist, and one music composer. The webpage of the game is http://www.century-game.tk/ The first 4 screenshots have been taken with the OGRE engine, the rest of them with Cipher.
We have been making different demos to try the engines, and won the Best Graphics award on the ArtFutura'04 show: http://www.artfutura.org/AF04/en/index.php. The version shown @ ArtFutura was made in Blitz3D, as it was mainly a fast prototype of the game we made in one week.
We tried OGRE, as it is one of the most powerful graphics engines we have seen, but discarded it as it was not a complete game engine, and we prefer to concentrate on game development that in making an engine.
After that, we came to the Cipher and Torque engines. While I love to work in Cipher, and it has an awesome integration with 3DS Max, for outdoor scenes, we have to export everyting as a mesh: terrains, buildings, grass... which is not very optimized for fast rendering.
Torque, on the other hand, provides an awesome outdoor rendering, with support for weather effects like rain and snow, water, multilayered clouds, etc. Our outdoor scenes would look awesome with it.
But the problem is that the 3D artist refuses to use those BSP-like crappy editors (like he calls them), and wants to do all the modelling in Max. It's not a problem for .dts shapes, but it definitely is for .dif constructions. Exporting a .map file from Max seems to give a lot of errors (obvious, as 3DS MAX is not a convex-like modeller).
After some searching, we came across this Max plugin: http://www.maple3d.com/GLB3Page.htm. It has a "Convex Corrector" tool which can correct invalid geometry for map generation. As it is not free, we would like to know if somebody here has been sucessfull in using Max for making Torque interiors before purchasing the plugin. After correcting the geometry to make it map compliant, will the .map be exported correctly?
Does anybody have more ideas on how to export a .dif from Max?
Thanks in advance :)
We have been making different demos to try the engines, and won the Best Graphics award on the ArtFutura'04 show: http://www.artfutura.org/AF04/en/index.php. The version shown @ ArtFutura was made in Blitz3D, as it was mainly a fast prototype of the game we made in one week.
We tried OGRE, as it is one of the most powerful graphics engines we have seen, but discarded it as it was not a complete game engine, and we prefer to concentrate on game development that in making an engine.
After that, we came to the Cipher and Torque engines. While I love to work in Cipher, and it has an awesome integration with 3DS Max, for outdoor scenes, we have to export everyting as a mesh: terrains, buildings, grass... which is not very optimized for fast rendering.
Torque, on the other hand, provides an awesome outdoor rendering, with support for weather effects like rain and snow, water, multilayered clouds, etc. Our outdoor scenes would look awesome with it.
But the problem is that the 3D artist refuses to use those BSP-like crappy editors (like he calls them), and wants to do all the modelling in Max. It's not a problem for .dts shapes, but it definitely is for .dif constructions. Exporting a .map file from Max seems to give a lot of errors (obvious, as 3DS MAX is not a convex-like modeller).
After some searching, we came across this Max plugin: http://www.maple3d.com/GLB3Page.htm. It has a "Convex Corrector" tool which can correct invalid geometry for map generation. As it is not free, we would like to know if somebody here has been sucessfull in using Max for making Torque interiors before purchasing the plugin. After correcting the geometry to make it map compliant, will the .map be exported correctly?
Does anybody have more ideas on how to export a .dif from Max?
Thanks in advance :)
#42
Have you seen Tim Aste's Combo Pack?
its a good example of what can be done
07/12/2005 (10:15 am)
Sure... though time is always relative to the person, experience, and familiarity...Have you seen Tim Aste's Combo Pack?
its a good example of what can be done
#43
07/12/2005 (10:44 am)
A building like that can be done in Max in a few hours (less thasn a day) if you know your tools and have a rough sketch of the layout. Looks like you have a lot of chamfered/beveled edges which might be a bit wasteful if your going to have a lot of those types of buildings in a game. In a CSG editor It might be a bit of a pain to make a building like that as the snap tools aren't as flexible as a good 3d app.
#44
I didnt buy it yet :)
Screens look realy great!
Maybe i can create in some BSP editor (Constructor for example :) ) only general geometry, but windows, lamp an e.t.c in Max and then use them like static dts.
Will Constructor support DTS loading in scene? So i will can compose them not in game editor but in Constructor. Like in CShop 5
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/11919/7501
07/12/2005 (10:48 am)
MatthewI didnt buy it yet :)
Screens look realy great!
Maybe i can create in some BSP editor (Constructor for example :) ) only general geometry, but windows, lamp an e.t.c in Max and then use them like static dts.
Will Constructor support DTS loading in scene? So i will can compose them not in game editor but in Constructor. Like in CShop 5
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/11919/7501
#46
07/12/2005 (10:57 am)
You'd be suprised how easy it is to make a general building in a BSP tool like Quark... especially with the make hollow action and tag and glue.
#47
You almost convince me to use BSP tools :)
Thank you for reply!
I think you right, i cant see any benefits for using houses like dts static.
So who needs "Log Cottages Content Pack"? comming soon....
:))))
07/12/2005 (11:36 am)
MatthewYou almost convince me to use BSP tools :)
Thank you for reply!
I think you right, i cant see any benefits for using houses like dts static.
So who needs "Log Cottages Content Pack"? comming soon....
:))))
#48
This process is tedious, horrible ;( and just sux a lamas ass.
Basically DIF doesnt support cool terrains! ;(
A
07/25/2005 (12:33 pm)
One thing horrible about a DIF, its impossible to create cave like objects ! We have a game, its in a cave! and it just sux because we cant seem to create a cave. We can create a cave in max using loft tool and displacement modifier in like a minute. It looks awsome. No problems ! But in order for us to export the cave to DIF we have to modify it, break it up into many convex objects, after that... we have to reapply the texture in cartography shop editor or quark.This process is tedious, horrible ;( and just sux a lamas ass.
Basically DIF doesnt support cool terrains! ;(
A
#49
In QuArK I suggest you use the following strategy to make caves:
1: Cut up a block at various angles until it is rock-shaped.
2: Use it as a Negative poly (Digger) in a bigger block to create a cave.
3: Use negative poly path_duplicated paths to create tunnels between caves.
4: Add in more details such as stalagtites and stalagmites (spikes), and both negative and positive smaller rock shapes.
@Viktor
That building would be a peice of cake in QuArK or Hammre. That's the sort of stuff that BSP editors eat for breakfast. It could easily be made in half an hour. Cshop is a bit limited so that might take a while longer. Now, if you are wanting to create smoothly rolling hills or a character model bsp editors are a different story, but there is a reason why Valve, iD, Raven, etc don't use modeling programs like 3dsmax for mapping (and it isnt money).
07/31/2005 (5:21 pm)
@ArseniyIn QuArK I suggest you use the following strategy to make caves:
1: Cut up a block at various angles until it is rock-shaped.
2: Use it as a Negative poly (Digger) in a bigger block to create a cave.
3: Use negative poly path_duplicated paths to create tunnels between caves.
4: Add in more details such as stalagtites and stalagmites (spikes), and both negative and positive smaller rock shapes.
@Viktor
That building would be a peice of cake in QuArK or Hammre. That's the sort of stuff that BSP editors eat for breakfast. It could easily be made in half an hour. Cshop is a bit limited so that might take a while longer. Now, if you are wanting to create smoothly rolling hills or a character model bsp editors are a different story, but there is a reason why Valve, iD, Raven, etc don't use modeling programs like 3dsmax for mapping (and it isnt money).
#50
08/08/2005 (4:23 pm)
Speaking of Valve... is there anyway of using HL2's editor (not sure on all the details, but if I recall correclty its just like the old one only improved a few iotas) with Torque? 
#51
08/08/2005 (8:48 pm)
It doesn't export to .map so no....there is no way to use it (even if the license allowed...which it doesn't).
#52
Here is what it looks like on a building I made recently for a prototype. In openGL with a single 1024x1024 texture.
08/14/2005 (4:45 pm)
Hmm, hate to go off topic but I have a reply for Viktor. I am not sure how to do it in MAX, but in XSI you can bake textures and global illumination into one texture complete with an individual poly packed UV. The XSI tool is called Rendermap and produces a single texture.Here is what it looks like on a building I made recently for a prototype. In openGL with a single 1024x1024 texture.
#53
08/14/2005 (5:03 pm)
You could render a lightmap to the base texture of your object, but then you would have to skin your entire building with a single texture which is kind of wasteful. since you can no longer tile low res textures and repeat them over specific parts of your meshes.
#54
forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259474
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As for the original topic. I can understand if the artist would want to stick with Max. If you have an option to use an engine that would allow the artist to create interiors in Max, a software he knows, and an engine that would force him to learn a new package and use modeling techniques he is not used to, then of course the artist would want to stick with the engine that lets him use Max. I recently got to use an engine called Virtools that let me build interiors using XSI, Maya, or Max, and it was great. I wish I didn't have to go back to using Brushes to model interiors, but I know it is a skill I should learn and will be using a bsp editor in my next project.
08/15/2005 (11:21 am)
I thought Viktor can only use 1 UV? Without being able to add a lightmap on a second UV how else could this be done? Also, this texturing technique can be used to create very detailed and individual buildings. For example I have read that HL2 uses 1024x1024 to 2048x2048 textures for buildings. There is a thread on CGTalk where the artist creates some very nice buildings with these large textures. I wish I could have went in and made my buildings more detailed as well, but there was not enough time and they are just placeholders anyway.forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259474
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As for the original topic. I can understand if the artist would want to stick with Max. If you have an option to use an engine that would allow the artist to create interiors in Max, a software he knows, and an engine that would force him to learn a new package and use modeling techniques he is not used to, then of course the artist would want to stick with the engine that lets him use Max. I recently got to use an engine called Virtools that let me build interiors using XSI, Maya, or Max, and it was great. I wish I didn't have to go back to using Brushes to model interiors, but I know it is a skill I should learn and will be using a bsp editor in my next project.
#55
So using huge textures, particularly if you want quite a few of them, will soon bog down the engine and ramp up your footprint for your game, assuming your going to have it downloaded off of the net.
one 2048x2048 texture is going to be over 10mb since usualy textures are handles as 32bits internaly. SO on a 32mb vid card one texture will use up 1/3 of your Vram, gets worse if you run in windowed mode.
08/15/2005 (12:10 pm)
Yeah, but I don't think torque even does texture compression yet does it? and a lot of people playing indie games still only have 32 or 64mb video cards. Plus some older cards have trouble with textures over 1024x1024.So using huge textures, particularly if you want quite a few of them, will soon bog down the engine and ramp up your footprint for your game, assuming your going to have it downloaded off of the net.
one 2048x2048 texture is going to be over 10mb since usualy textures are handles as 32bits internaly. SO on a 32mb vid card one texture will use up 1/3 of your Vram, gets worse if you run in windowed mode.
#56
I'll keep your warnings in mind though since I will be doing a game level slice for TGE using Greenbriar Studio's ToolBox. I guess many of the techniques I have been learning for Virtools, Source, and Unreal in class will not be applicable. If what you are saying is correct it looks like I will be using nothing but tiled textures for DIFs and DTS objects ;) Maybe I can use Vertex Colors to break up the tiled textures a bit?
08/15/2005 (3:01 pm)
Thanks for the heads up about Torque's limitations. I was just trying to offer a solution to the DTS lighting problem. The DTS textures do not have to be 2048x2048 in size by the way. Is there another solution I am missing? Will the solution I offered not work? Should I toss the whole idea of using prelit textures for DTS' in Torque altogether? Are future implementations of multiple UVs allowing the use of seperate light maps the only solution?I'll keep your warnings in mind though since I will be doing a game level slice for TGE using Greenbriar Studio's ToolBox. I guess many of the techniques I have been learning for Virtools, Source, and Unreal in class will not be applicable. If what you are saying is correct it looks like I will be using nothing but tiled textures for DIFs and DTS objects ;) Maybe I can use Vertex Colors to break up the tiled textures a bit?
#57
When i export the model .dts, the model shown hollow in Torque show tool,
09/17/2005 (1:02 am)
Hi, When i export the model .dts, the model shown hollow in Torque show tool,
#58
you can use most of the tricks you use in Max, creat a single Step ..cntrl-c, Ctrl-v ..to clone the amount you need.
I mostly use Hammer and Cshop,
"Like the cartography shop cathedral. 1400 polys"
Im guessing thats "pre" conversion to Dif? becuase all the non visable backfaces will be removed by map2dif.
I would think it would less than 700 after conversion,.
But I agree , use what your most comfortable with.
At the moment he would still have to work with Convex shapes only, but it should Work if you can get a proper .MAP exported.
I make anything that can be made in CSG in hammer or Cshop, and use Max for some detail shapes
they can be lod'ed.
Zmatrix
09/17/2005 (2:07 am)
Yeah a building like that could be created in quark or Hammer pretty fast.(good thing about buildings is alot of the geometry can just be duplicated)you can use most of the tricks you use in Max, creat a single Step ..cntrl-c, Ctrl-v ..to clone the amount you need.
I mostly use Hammer and Cshop,
"Like the cartography shop cathedral. 1400 polys"
Im guessing thats "pre" conversion to Dif? becuase all the non visable backfaces will be removed by map2dif.
I would think it would less than 700 after conversion,.
But I agree , use what your most comfortable with.
At the moment he would still have to work with Convex shapes only, but it should Work if you can get a proper .MAP exported.
I make anything that can be made in CSG in hammer or Cshop, and use Max for some detail shapes
they can be lod'ed.
Zmatrix
Torque Owner Viktor Kuropyatnik
can be modeled in CShop or Quark in one week of full time job?