Sports RPG?
by Michael J. Grabowski · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 03/17/2005 (12:42 pm) · 13 replies
Ok, we all know there are hundreds of so called "RPG's" floating around out there and EA has pretty much sucked all creativity out of the sports genre, so why not combine them?
I've been working on a concept like this for over 3 years now, but since I am only a concept designer, QA tester and novice skinner, I do not have the skills to pull this off even on a small scale.
A few ideas that I've worked up though (without giving away all my secrets :)) are as follows and I'm working with an American Football Style game here. :)
- Character/Player creation could be a series of "events" you perform using a game controller. Based on your performance in these events you would get the foundation for your character/player. Of course there would need to be some customization here, so a simple point distribution system could be used.
- As in the "NFL", games would be played once a week; this is where the sports aspect of this game comes in. At game time you would go through all your basic game intro BS...player introduction, weather out look and what not, but what really makes it interesting is the fact that you play your character/player only. That's right, if you're a Line Backer and the Offense is on the field, your not playing, but hanging out on the sideline. But when you are on the field you control your guy, that's it...the play gets sent in, you see what your assignment is, and then you play as you should.
- Off field activity would take place in your home town/city, or the town/city of the team you are playing that week. So here, it's Tuesday morning and you have nothing to do until practice, which starts at 1pm...so what do you do? Well, you could hang out around your house and goof off, you could hop in your car and head downtown and hit a club...maybe your the type that needs a stimulant to help your performance on the field? So cruise on over to your "dealers" place and get your latest fix.
- RPG elements can be added in with ease, there can always be npc's hangout at the practice field, stadium, and clubs, just about anywhere. Any number of these npc's could have any number random "quests" just waiting for you to discuss and complete.
That's just a hint of what could go into a title like this and I'm sure many of you already have the gears working and probably have thought of a few more of my other concepts for this.
The only problem I feel with a title such as this is you might have a very small audience your marketing too. It seems most RPGers hate Sports and most Sports gamers are not really into RPG's, so combining them might actually split these two groups up even more, not bring them together as would be needed.
Anyway, that's the skinny on this concept and as I stated, I have been working on this idea for some time now...if I could get a team together, I would very much like to see if this can be pulled off.
Again, I am not a programmer, modeler, scripter (kind of, but not really), audio guy, artists (some skinning for the sims 2, but nothing great) or anything else most people would consider someone would need to be for them to join their team. But, I am a designer (concepts, ideas and so) which I have taken courses for...these included Game Design Foundations from gameversity.com, which was taught by Roger E. Pedersen. I have also been a QA tester for some of the top MMO's on the market and I mean, I was on the alpha tests teams and tested the game to release. I am also a member of Activisions "Visioneers", which is their private testing group...I was also one of the original testers for Netamin on their Ultimate Baseball Online title. Not to mention my 25+ years of tabletop gaming/creation.
Hehe, sorry for the quick resume run down...couldn't help it. :)
Take care,
I've been working on a concept like this for over 3 years now, but since I am only a concept designer, QA tester and novice skinner, I do not have the skills to pull this off even on a small scale.
A few ideas that I've worked up though (without giving away all my secrets :)) are as follows and I'm working with an American Football Style game here. :)
- Character/Player creation could be a series of "events" you perform using a game controller. Based on your performance in these events you would get the foundation for your character/player. Of course there would need to be some customization here, so a simple point distribution system could be used.
- As in the "NFL", games would be played once a week; this is where the sports aspect of this game comes in. At game time you would go through all your basic game intro BS...player introduction, weather out look and what not, but what really makes it interesting is the fact that you play your character/player only. That's right, if you're a Line Backer and the Offense is on the field, your not playing, but hanging out on the sideline. But when you are on the field you control your guy, that's it...the play gets sent in, you see what your assignment is, and then you play as you should.
- Off field activity would take place in your home town/city, or the town/city of the team you are playing that week. So here, it's Tuesday morning and you have nothing to do until practice, which starts at 1pm...so what do you do? Well, you could hang out around your house and goof off, you could hop in your car and head downtown and hit a club...maybe your the type that needs a stimulant to help your performance on the field? So cruise on over to your "dealers" place and get your latest fix.
- RPG elements can be added in with ease, there can always be npc's hangout at the practice field, stadium, and clubs, just about anywhere. Any number of these npc's could have any number random "quests" just waiting for you to discuss and complete.
That's just a hint of what could go into a title like this and I'm sure many of you already have the gears working and probably have thought of a few more of my other concepts for this.
The only problem I feel with a title such as this is you might have a very small audience your marketing too. It seems most RPGers hate Sports and most Sports gamers are not really into RPG's, so combining them might actually split these two groups up even more, not bring them together as would be needed.
Anyway, that's the skinny on this concept and as I stated, I have been working on this idea for some time now...if I could get a team together, I would very much like to see if this can be pulled off.
Again, I am not a programmer, modeler, scripter (kind of, but not really), audio guy, artists (some skinning for the sims 2, but nothing great) or anything else most people would consider someone would need to be for them to join their team. But, I am a designer (concepts, ideas and so) which I have taken courses for...these included Game Design Foundations from gameversity.com, which was taught by Roger E. Pedersen. I have also been a QA tester for some of the top MMO's on the market and I mean, I was on the alpha tests teams and tested the game to release. I am also a member of Activisions "Visioneers", which is their private testing group...I was also one of the original testers for Netamin on their Ultimate Baseball Online title. Not to mention my 25+ years of tabletop gaming/creation.
Hehe, sorry for the quick resume run down...couldn't help it. :)
Take care,
#2
03/17/2005 (2:04 pm)
So, it would be sort of like pokemon colliseum? Might be cool if it were an imaginary sport, like dragon jousting. Or a decathalon with a variety of sports.
#3
This would solve the problem of a restricted target audience.
Interesting concept. So, are you going for a Career Mode deal? As in, you begin with the player as a rookie (I dunno, 18 years old) and help him evolve into a veteran? Or would you include a couple junior years also? Or is his age and size pretty much fixed for one season only?
03/17/2005 (2:04 pm)
I think this is a good idea, but you're right, most sports-gamers like the team-based stuff and would have little patience, IMO, for the off-field stuff. So, you could either make the character's off-field life mostly relevant to his career, or else make two game modes. Have one in which you can explore a great deal of his personal life (maybe relationships?), and one that just sticks to training and developing his skills. One's like a Career Mode Sim, the other's like a Career Mode Arcade style. As a former avid sports game player, the more choices or modes the game offered, the more I loved it (as well as the more I could develop the player, the more I loved it).This would solve the problem of a restricted target audience.
Interesting concept. So, are you going for a Career Mode deal? As in, you begin with the player as a rookie (I dunno, 18 years old) and help him evolve into a veteran? Or would you include a couple junior years also? Or is his age and size pretty much fixed for one season only?
#4
@ Mare - Don't know what "Pokemon Colliseum" is like really and I've personally never gotten into "made up" sports, but I can see how your thinking and it could easily work going that way.
@ T G - I didn't go into the "RPG" aspect because that's sort of most of my secret :) ideas, I mean, we all know how "sports" games work, so that's pretty straight forward. But what makes an "RPG" stand out, is it's content, though you are on the right path with your thinking about relationships and what not.
Also, the thought of having different Career Modes has crossed my mind and I think its a great idea, and a good way to keep your target audience as wide as possible.
As for how you begin the game with your character/player...yes, it would be a "Career" type mode. In fact, I've thought about having the game start you just out of High School and when you create your character/player by performing those "events" I spoke of, these could be use as a "try out" of sorts for a college. Then at the end of the creation process you get offers from schools to come and play for them...after which you pick one and begin your career. Heck, I've even thought of making it even more "RPGish" by making it so you don't actually pick what position you want to play, but the AI coach decides what you would be best suited for based on your abilities...which would be hidden from the gamer btw. Of course all of this would be options that could be turned on or off when setting up a new game.
Anyway, I could go on and on about features, options, story lines and all that, but I really just wanted to get some input from peeps on the conecpt. Oh and if anyone is interested in this enough, I'd love to get a team together to maybe work on a web based browser game for this concept. If that goes some where, we could always go back to working on the actual full on 3d version. :) Who knows, could be something, could fall apart in a week, but you never can tell.
[EDIT] Just wanted to add in here, this concept was originally thought up as an MMO where all football players would be controled by real people. But taking it a step further and making it not just a MMOSG like Ultimate Baseball Online, but making it so players don't have to be football players in the game, meaning they could maybe be that "dealer" guy the players goto to get a fix, or maybe they want to own the bar players hang out at, or even be a team owner.
There are many possiblities, but it would be quite an under taking for such an MMO, even for a well funded and established Dev house.
Take care,
03/17/2005 (7:21 pm)
@ Brad - Checked out "Deathrow" quickly and I can see how this could be similar, but I am thinking much more "RPG" than just some simple elements that I saw in that game.@ Mare - Don't know what "Pokemon Colliseum" is like really and I've personally never gotten into "made up" sports, but I can see how your thinking and it could easily work going that way.
@ T G - I didn't go into the "RPG" aspect because that's sort of most of my secret :) ideas, I mean, we all know how "sports" games work, so that's pretty straight forward. But what makes an "RPG" stand out, is it's content, though you are on the right path with your thinking about relationships and what not.
Also, the thought of having different Career Modes has crossed my mind and I think its a great idea, and a good way to keep your target audience as wide as possible.
As for how you begin the game with your character/player...yes, it would be a "Career" type mode. In fact, I've thought about having the game start you just out of High School and when you create your character/player by performing those "events" I spoke of, these could be use as a "try out" of sorts for a college. Then at the end of the creation process you get offers from schools to come and play for them...after which you pick one and begin your career. Heck, I've even thought of making it even more "RPGish" by making it so you don't actually pick what position you want to play, but the AI coach decides what you would be best suited for based on your abilities...which would be hidden from the gamer btw. Of course all of this would be options that could be turned on or off when setting up a new game.
Anyway, I could go on and on about features, options, story lines and all that, but I really just wanted to get some input from peeps on the conecpt. Oh and if anyone is interested in this enough, I'd love to get a team together to maybe work on a web based browser game for this concept. If that goes some where, we could always go back to working on the actual full on 3d version. :) Who knows, could be something, could fall apart in a week, but you never can tell.
[EDIT] Just wanted to add in here, this concept was originally thought up as an MMO where all football players would be controled by real people. But taking it a step further and making it not just a MMOSG like Ultimate Baseball Online, but making it so players don't have to be football players in the game, meaning they could maybe be that "dealer" guy the players goto to get a fix, or maybe they want to own the bar players hang out at, or even be a team owner.
There are many possiblities, but it would be quite an under taking for such an MMO, even for a well funded and established Dev house.
Take care,
#5
Well, you've obviously done a lot of outlining and have a very detailed concept. I think it has potential.
Be sure to include some sort of "popularity" point system for the guy, too--yunno, if the fans start booing him on the field, it might lower his confidence and the coach might give him less playing time (if the team has another capable player for his position, that is), or worse, make the coach or GM more apt to trade his butt.
So, maybe have an option for the player to do positive things for the community, other than go bar-hopping or see his dealer ;)
Well, I'll be busy with my current project for the next two years, it seems. I have an idea for a sports game myself, but hockey would be my first choice (being Canadian); unlike the year-to-year crap that EA puts out, this game would concentrate on the history of the NHL--a player can select any team from any year and try to take that team through the season and into the playoffs (for example, you could manage and play as the 1973 Flyers, or the 1980 Islanders, or the 1967 Maple Leafs, or hell, even the 1976 Washington Captials if you want a huge challenge), changing the history of the league and trying to extend the Dynasty for as long as possible, or create a Dynasty out of an unsuccessful franchise. The schedules would be the same as they were, rookies would become available normally, but how you shape the next seasons from where you start would alter the following draft order in future seasons.
The year 2000 would be the cut-off date in the timeline (1960 might be the beginning year).
Football's my second favorite sport, though. Loved the old Tecmo Bowl for NES--got 2500 yards one season for Payton with the Bears =)
03/18/2005 (9:54 pm)
Michael,Well, you've obviously done a lot of outlining and have a very detailed concept. I think it has potential.
Be sure to include some sort of "popularity" point system for the guy, too--yunno, if the fans start booing him on the field, it might lower his confidence and the coach might give him less playing time (if the team has another capable player for his position, that is), or worse, make the coach or GM more apt to trade his butt.
So, maybe have an option for the player to do positive things for the community, other than go bar-hopping or see his dealer ;)
Well, I'll be busy with my current project for the next two years, it seems. I have an idea for a sports game myself, but hockey would be my first choice (being Canadian); unlike the year-to-year crap that EA puts out, this game would concentrate on the history of the NHL--a player can select any team from any year and try to take that team through the season and into the playoffs (for example, you could manage and play as the 1973 Flyers, or the 1980 Islanders, or the 1967 Maple Leafs, or hell, even the 1976 Washington Captials if you want a huge challenge), changing the history of the league and trying to extend the Dynasty for as long as possible, or create a Dynasty out of an unsuccessful franchise. The schedules would be the same as they were, rookies would become available normally, but how you shape the next seasons from where you start would alter the following draft order in future seasons.
The year 2000 would be the cut-off date in the timeline (1960 might be the beginning year).
Football's my second favorite sport, though. Loved the old Tecmo Bowl for NES--got 2500 yards one season for Payton with the Bears =)
#6
03/18/2005 (10:55 pm)
I actually bought Deathrow when it was full price. Wonderful game. It really demonstrates how well hybrid sports can mesh together.
#7
And Deathrow is amazing, still play it today.
03/21/2005 (12:20 pm)
I don't think making 2 caree modes would widen your market at all. In fact you could very well shrink it by laying too many options on the player. Make one game, don't make two and call it one, that is bad. What I see happening is a weak non rpg side with really nothing to do, so no one plays it anyways, and an RPG side with some holes because time went into the other side. If the game really achieved making me the player attached to my character and wanting to see what happens next in his life, then you have something special, otherwise it's a sports games with a lots of bells and whistles. And Deathrow is amazing, still play it today.
#8
Brad - I think your looking at the idea of multiple "career modes" to straight forward actually. It wouldn't be you can either play the game as a "sports sim" or as an "RPG" like it seems you are. It would rather be a "Sports RPG" with options that can be turned on or off as the user sees fit for their gaming experience. There are plenty of games already on the shelves that have multiple options that can be turned on or not, EA's could be the king of these options with their sports titles, I also think EA has already cornered the market on "bells and whistles" in their games...a la, create-a-fan. Which only proves marketing ploys do not sell a game, the game sells the game.
But you are right, it would be very difficult to bring both genres together at a happy medium and if it can be done, you would surely have a special game on your hands.
Take care,
03/21/2005 (4:15 pm)
T G - Hockey eh? Ahh, yes, another fav sport of mine...good luck with your idea on that as well. :)Brad - I think your looking at the idea of multiple "career modes" to straight forward actually. It wouldn't be you can either play the game as a "sports sim" or as an "RPG" like it seems you are. It would rather be a "Sports RPG" with options that can be turned on or off as the user sees fit for their gaming experience. There are plenty of games already on the shelves that have multiple options that can be turned on or not, EA's could be the king of these options with their sports titles, I also think EA has already cornered the market on "bells and whistles" in their games...a la, create-a-fan. Which only proves marketing ploys do not sell a game, the game sells the game.
But you are right, it would be very difficult to bring both genres together at a happy medium and if it can be done, you would surely have a special game on your hands.
Take care,
#9
03/21/2005 (7:04 pm)
Unfortunately, most of those elements are covered by the Madden games already... You'd really have to bring a whole new angle on the sim or management portion to pull something like this off.
#10
To be honest, I should have called this thread RPG Sports, instead of Sports RPG...because really my game idea leans more toward the "RPG" aspect, than the "Sports" aspect.
Now of course mixing two hude genres like this would be difficult and one would suffer due to the other, in this case, I believe the "Sports Sim" aspect would suffer, but I'm not looking to knock EA off their lofty perch. Though personally I feel we as gamers have had the wool pulled over ours eyes when it comes to "Sports" titles as it is...I mean yes, the game's look amazing and the animation is incredible, but I want options and I don't mean some create-a-fan, or fake newspaper options, I want to play my player only and I want to feel like "I am in the game", because I could care less if "It's in the game". I know, that's just my opinion, but from my experience on the internet and testing games, I've found others who share my complaints and wants.
Anyway, here's an independent developers site and football game that is not as flashy as the big boys, but has a good following and looks like its going to be a surprise hit.
www.maximum-football.com/
Now take something like that and add a nice RPG back/frontend to it and I think you might have something.
Oh, I'd like to thank you all for your input thus far...it has been very helpful and appreciated...sorry if I come off a bit defensive too, my bad. :)
Take care,
03/21/2005 (8:28 pm)
Joseph - Yes correct, the Madden series has quite a number of options, but it is still just a Football Sim game, there are really no RPG elements in that title and I don't consider EA's idea of a "Career Mode" to be an RPG element. :)To be honest, I should have called this thread RPG Sports, instead of Sports RPG...because really my game idea leans more toward the "RPG" aspect, than the "Sports" aspect.
Now of course mixing two hude genres like this would be difficult and one would suffer due to the other, in this case, I believe the "Sports Sim" aspect would suffer, but I'm not looking to knock EA off their lofty perch. Though personally I feel we as gamers have had the wool pulled over ours eyes when it comes to "Sports" titles as it is...I mean yes, the game's look amazing and the animation is incredible, but I want options and I don't mean some create-a-fan, or fake newspaper options, I want to play my player only and I want to feel like "I am in the game", because I could care less if "It's in the game". I know, that's just my opinion, but from my experience on the internet and testing games, I've found others who share my complaints and wants.
Anyway, here's an independent developers site and football game that is not as flashy as the big boys, but has a good following and looks like its going to be a surprise hit.
www.maximum-football.com/
Now take something like that and add a nice RPG back/frontend to it and I think you might have something.
Oh, I'd like to thank you all for your input thus far...it has been very helpful and appreciated...sorry if I come off a bit defensive too, my bad. :)
Take care,
#11
03/21/2005 (8:45 pm)
I must agree, EA is doing so manything wrong. I don't want to sell hotdogs in my game, I want to play the game. They have so many bells and whistles it kills the games for me. ESPN was soooo much better. If you really can pull of an PRG sports game and not a sports rpg game, I would love it. Make your player, then play them through seasons and trades and injuries. That could be really really special.
#12
There was another game where you played games in a casino and basically walked around and got tips and went to other casinos and tried to make a million bucks to win the game.
It was kind of cool. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that again
03/21/2005 (8:53 pm)
There was an old game (for the nintendo I think) where you played as a boxer and between fights you had to train and go do things. There was a small underlying story there.There was another game where you played games in a casino and basically walked around and got tips and went to other casinos and tried to make a million bucks to win the game.
It was kind of cool. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that again
#13
And the Play by Play was the utter crap. It turned into a corny joke-fest in 2003 (I had to get a sound editor and tweak the hell out of it to make less annoying).
Then came NHL 2004...so much eye candy that I could not even get it to work on my old PC. (I tried on my new PC--which is a 2.8 Ghz with 1 GB of RAM and a Radeon 9200 video card--and I could not even install the thing, kept crashing halfway through.)
I can't comment about NHL 2004's Play by Play--except that it should have been adjusted for my graphics result: "Blank white screen passes to blank white screen, and blank white screen scorrrres! Blank white screen leads one to nothing..."
Rant over. EA blows...
03/22/2005 (11:56 am)
I have to agree about EA's sports games. I haven't played the last few versions of Madden's football, but the NHL titles have gradually gotten worse since 2000. NHL 2001 was a good game, but 2002 was not as good. NHL 2003 was terrible--nothing was improved upon, and in fact there were less options overall. Much of the things I liked were either toned down or removed altogether to make room for such important gameplay features as having fans being able to dance, jump up and down, or propose marraige to each other (no, I'm not kidding).And the Play by Play was the utter crap. It turned into a corny joke-fest in 2003 (I had to get a sound editor and tweak the hell out of it to make less annoying).
Then came NHL 2004...so much eye candy that I could not even get it to work on my old PC. (I tried on my new PC--which is a 2.8 Ghz with 1 GB of RAM and a Radeon 9200 video card--and I could not even install the thing, kept crashing halfway through.)
I can't comment about NHL 2004's Play by Play--except that it should have been adjusted for my graphics result: "Blank white screen passes to blank white screen, and blank white screen scorrrres! Blank white screen leads one to nothing..."
Rant over. EA blows...
Brad Phillips