What do the ametures do?
by Charles D'Arienzo · in General Discussion · 03/16/2001 (7:31 am) · 8 replies
these are just some random thoughts by a random amature game designer "wannabe"
well, i dont mind the term "wannabe" as i do wannabe a profecional game designer.
last year i began work on a mod for the half-life engine (just like everyone else and their brother). the game is called Hostile Intent (hostileintent.net) but our server closed its doors and if you look quick before we get the kill signal you can see what we have been spending 90% of ours lives on.
since i began working on HI as the team leader ive been having dreames of going pro one way or the other. selling the game to valve, impressing sierra somehow, or what have you.
while thats unlikely im not giving up. maybe, just maybe, some development company will let me use Hostile Intent as a reference on a resume and be impressed.
maybe thats unlikely as well. im still not giving up.
in the begining of development i got in league with a company called Oncedo (www.ondeco.com).
Ondeco specialises in finding seed money (start-up funds) for small high tech companys. Maybe that will work out. but thats only a little less unlikely.
still not going to give up.
so, i been thinking. whats really needed to begin a software development house in the land of opprotunity (no, not canada, the US)
well, i have the team. a very very talented team at that. some of the best and most dedicated in the half-life community. thats all well and dandy.
but it takes $.
great. i have maybe a couple hundred dollers in my saving account (im a working stiff)
whats needed to fund a company? hmm.
well, try $500,000 for the first 6 months just to get a demo out.
thats relocation fees, budget, lease equipment, lease office space, payrole, taxes, leagle fees ect ect ect. maybe after all that i can have enough to eat......
after the demo is finished you take it to tons on game producing companys (sierra, acclaim, eidos, ect) and say in more or less words
"please oh please fund this game through further development. i PROMISE it'll make you $ in the end"
they either say sure or throw you out the window. (even if they say sure they still screw you in the arse)
but lets back up a step or two.
the seed money. that first initial $500,000. where does it come from? thats the thing. i simply dont know. indipendent investors? thats so close to impossiable ive repressed it already. rich uncle? dont have one. second job? HA! i get lucky somehow? yeah. thats all i can think of.
but im not giving up.
its harder that i thought. but im realistic about it. some of you reading this are in my possition as a modder with dreames. others here maybe on their way somewhat. i say good luck to you all.
I just wonder what some ameture developers are thinking sometimes saying "hey, this is a totally unpaying job except for when we DO get picked up by a publisher" they sound so confident. so...unrealistic. i wonder if they thought this through.
ive come to believe that building anything of proffecional quality is almost impossiable when working with an online team. rather its possiable but not probable. i sometimes think the the chances are about as realistic as getting into the NBA.
i hope what ive said here puts some stuff into perspective for you. if so, let me know. if you think im an ass and totally off base, let me know too.
anyway, take care and im not giving up.
Shaka
well, i dont mind the term "wannabe" as i do wannabe a profecional game designer.
last year i began work on a mod for the half-life engine (just like everyone else and their brother). the game is called Hostile Intent (hostileintent.net) but our server closed its doors and if you look quick before we get the kill signal you can see what we have been spending 90% of ours lives on.
since i began working on HI as the team leader ive been having dreames of going pro one way or the other. selling the game to valve, impressing sierra somehow, or what have you.
while thats unlikely im not giving up. maybe, just maybe, some development company will let me use Hostile Intent as a reference on a resume and be impressed.
maybe thats unlikely as well. im still not giving up.
in the begining of development i got in league with a company called Oncedo (www.ondeco.com).
Ondeco specialises in finding seed money (start-up funds) for small high tech companys. Maybe that will work out. but thats only a little less unlikely.
still not going to give up.
so, i been thinking. whats really needed to begin a software development house in the land of opprotunity (no, not canada, the US)
well, i have the team. a very very talented team at that. some of the best and most dedicated in the half-life community. thats all well and dandy.
but it takes $.
great. i have maybe a couple hundred dollers in my saving account (im a working stiff)
whats needed to fund a company? hmm.
well, try $500,000 for the first 6 months just to get a demo out.
thats relocation fees, budget, lease equipment, lease office space, payrole, taxes, leagle fees ect ect ect. maybe after all that i can have enough to eat......
after the demo is finished you take it to tons on game producing companys (sierra, acclaim, eidos, ect) and say in more or less words
"please oh please fund this game through further development. i PROMISE it'll make you $ in the end"
they either say sure or throw you out the window. (even if they say sure they still screw you in the arse)
but lets back up a step or two.
the seed money. that first initial $500,000. where does it come from? thats the thing. i simply dont know. indipendent investors? thats so close to impossiable ive repressed it already. rich uncle? dont have one. second job? HA! i get lucky somehow? yeah. thats all i can think of.
but im not giving up.
its harder that i thought. but im realistic about it. some of you reading this are in my possition as a modder with dreames. others here maybe on their way somewhat. i say good luck to you all.
I just wonder what some ameture developers are thinking sometimes saying "hey, this is a totally unpaying job except for when we DO get picked up by a publisher" they sound so confident. so...unrealistic. i wonder if they thought this through.
ive come to believe that building anything of proffecional quality is almost impossiable when working with an online team. rather its possiable but not probable. i sometimes think the the chances are about as realistic as getting into the NBA.
i hope what ive said here puts some stuff into perspective for you. if so, let me know. if you think im an ass and totally off base, let me know too.
anyway, take care and im not giving up.
Shaka
#2
You make some good points. It is definitely difficult to get your first break. Here are some of my thoughts that may or may not help you. I hope they don't insult you.
Here is where I see your problem. You don't need offices, legal fees, or office equipment. All of that stuff is just trappings. You need a game first, and all of that other stuff will fall into place. Attorney fees, no way. Handshake agreements with your partners are binding. Office space, again, no way. Work from home. Office equipment? What's that? Your computer does it all.
You need to find a couple of programmers and artists that share your goal of "making it", and get going. None of you will make money. Get days jobs. Eat beans, keep your expenses low. Make a game. Not a mod, a game.
I'm not going to promise that your game will make money. In fact, my promise is that it probably won't. However, if it has that certain spark of creativity, it may get you to the next level, or it may get you a job. It may not, but it will help make your next effort that much better.
I don't think the odds of making it in the game biz are as low as making it in the NBA, but it is becoming a much more difficult business to break into.
From your post it is obvious that you have the drive. My advice is to not let the crap get in the way.
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/16/2001 (8:51 am)
Shaka,You make some good points. It is definitely difficult to get your first break. Here are some of my thoughts that may or may not help you. I hope they don't insult you.
Quote:
whats needed to fund a company? hmm.
well, try $500,000 for the first 6 months just to get a demo out.
thats relocation fees, budget, lease equipment, lease office space, payrole, taxes, leagle fees ect ect ect. maybe after all that i can have enough to eat......
Here is where I see your problem. You don't need offices, legal fees, or office equipment. All of that stuff is just trappings. You need a game first, and all of that other stuff will fall into place. Attorney fees, no way. Handshake agreements with your partners are binding. Office space, again, no way. Work from home. Office equipment? What's that? Your computer does it all.
You need to find a couple of programmers and artists that share your goal of "making it", and get going. None of you will make money. Get days jobs. Eat beans, keep your expenses low. Make a game. Not a mod, a game.
I'm not going to promise that your game will make money. In fact, my promise is that it probably won't. However, if it has that certain spark of creativity, it may get you to the next level, or it may get you a job. It may not, but it will help make your next effort that much better.
I don't think the odds of making it in the game biz are as low as making it in the NBA, but it is becoming a much more difficult business to break into.
From your post it is obvious that you have the drive. My advice is to not let the crap get in the way.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#3
whats that famous saying?
ahh. "good help is so hard to find" so true. so very very true
maybe a local team is best. anyone from rochester ny? :D
03/16/2001 (8:58 pm)
thanks for the replys guys. good points through and through.whats that famous saying?
ahh. "good help is so hard to find" so true. so very very true
maybe a local team is best. anyone from rochester ny? :D
#4
Hmmmm... let me see... don't do all of these in the exact order, but just review all of them.
1st get a day/night/alternate job that pays your bills and for some food.
2nd Keep that job, don't switch back and forth.
3rd Keep your "feelers" out at your job. The boss may know someone you find of interest, or someone random may come in to your job that could help or benefit your game developments.
4th Work on your game. Local people or not, doesn't matter. Always be able to pick up where you were and move on. Don't let that "awesome" game idea you had 30% done, then most of your team takes off with most of the intellectual properties you worked so hard on, and you feel defeated. Never feel this way. Never put all your eggs in one basket. Always innovate. Don't give up.
5th Eat beans like Jeff said, and Ramen noodle packs work well, with soy sauce or teriayaki sauce w/rice, or other similiar budget cutting means. PB sand. work well.
6th Learn to barter, or trade your labor (which only costs you energy & time, not money, or much thereof) for something you need, be it equipment, a service, or other items you need to help your developments along, with minimal costs to you financially. Bartering on the web works well too. You'd be surprised at the amount of deals that you can have come through for you.
7th Sleep is irrelevant. Caffeine isn't good for you anyway, drink juices and eat brain food.
8th Setup a web site. There's many free hosts, and you don't have to know much or any HTML for their use.
9th Setup a team community for just your company's/team's developments, where they can all leave messages and updates privately. A good example is intranets.com
10th Email potential publishers questions about their games, or compliment them, and go from there.
11th Treat the ones you adore in the industry like people. Unless they are the few who have the big head (i'd love to mention some names), they'll appreciate being treated like a person, instead of an idol. You'll get further.
12th If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again. Forget that. You've always succeeded. How? you ask? by reading this forum, by staying involved in your developments, by reading up on the industry, and caring whether or not your game(s) get made with your vision of how it should be.
13th Buy the license to V12 (couldn't help that, sorry)
14th Get on message boards on different sites, read them at least 2 weeks before making your 1st post on them, back-read as many topics as you can, and THEN ask questions. No question is foolish (within limits :)
15th If your team has the skills, make custom apps or games for the local businesses and amusements. Its an alternate stream of income.
hopefully some of that helped somebody.
-Joseph
AGFRAG Entertainment
03/17/2001 (7:17 am)
What do the amateurs do?Hmmmm... let me see... don't do all of these in the exact order, but just review all of them.
1st get a day/night/alternate job that pays your bills and for some food.
2nd Keep that job, don't switch back and forth.
3rd Keep your "feelers" out at your job. The boss may know someone you find of interest, or someone random may come in to your job that could help or benefit your game developments.
4th Work on your game. Local people or not, doesn't matter. Always be able to pick up where you were and move on. Don't let that "awesome" game idea you had 30% done, then most of your team takes off with most of the intellectual properties you worked so hard on, and you feel defeated. Never feel this way. Never put all your eggs in one basket. Always innovate. Don't give up.
5th Eat beans like Jeff said, and Ramen noodle packs work well, with soy sauce or teriayaki sauce w/rice, or other similiar budget cutting means. PB sand. work well.
6th Learn to barter, or trade your labor (which only costs you energy & time, not money, or much thereof) for something you need, be it equipment, a service, or other items you need to help your developments along, with minimal costs to you financially. Bartering on the web works well too. You'd be surprised at the amount of deals that you can have come through for you.
7th Sleep is irrelevant. Caffeine isn't good for you anyway, drink juices and eat brain food.
8th Setup a web site. There's many free hosts, and you don't have to know much or any HTML for their use.
9th Setup a team community for just your company's/team's developments, where they can all leave messages and updates privately. A good example is intranets.com
10th Email potential publishers questions about their games, or compliment them, and go from there.
11th Treat the ones you adore in the industry like people. Unless they are the few who have the big head (i'd love to mention some names), they'll appreciate being treated like a person, instead of an idol. You'll get further.
12th If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again. Forget that. You've always succeeded. How? you ask? by reading this forum, by staying involved in your developments, by reading up on the industry, and caring whether or not your game(s) get made with your vision of how it should be.
13th Buy the license to V12 (couldn't help that, sorry)
14th Get on message boards on different sites, read them at least 2 weeks before making your 1st post on them, back-read as many topics as you can, and THEN ask questions. No question is foolish (within limits :)
15th If your team has the skills, make custom apps or games for the local businesses and amusements. Its an alternate stream of income.
hopefully some of that helped somebody.
-Joseph
AGFRAG Entertainment
#5
Right now, I am doing the same thing as Charles D'Arienzo..working with a Halflife mod(www.starshipmod.com) coding. At the same time Im building up this team that will work with me on this game we're planning to do with the V12 engine. I guess what Im trying to say is that the V12 offer from GarageGames kinda gives a small game developer in a big world hope. :)
Thank you.
03/19/2001 (7:59 am)
I must say this is somewhat inspiring. I am currently waiting for the V12 engine which gave me hope as a amatuer game developer to actually have his dream of making a stand alone game come true.Right now, I am doing the same thing as Charles D'Arienzo..working with a Halflife mod(www.starshipmod.com) coding. At the same time Im building up this team that will work with me on this game we're planning to do with the V12 engine. I guess what Im trying to say is that the V12 offer from GarageGames kinda gives a small game developer in a big world hope. :)
Thank you.
#6
:D
03/19/2001 (8:30 am)
i know your mod Michael. infact lgx is on my team as well. hes a great weapon animator. but hes spending so much time with you its hard to get our models animated...lol :D
#7
I don't know what your day looks like but I go to school (only 38 days left and I'll go an university! yeha!), go home and code up to 10 hours the day...so..4 hours are left for sleeping :)
But this hard work was it worth. After 3 years of learning game programming, we started our first game and got it published. So, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
The best thing is that we only had to pay 75$ for the development of the game. Yes, it's true just 75$.
03/19/2001 (8:43 am)
What do amateur developers??I don't know what your day looks like but I go to school (only 38 days left and I'll go an university! yeha!), go home and code up to 10 hours the day...so..4 hours are left for sleeping :)
But this hard work was it worth. After 3 years of learning game programming, we started our first game and got it published. So, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
The best thing is that we only had to pay 75$ for the development of the game. Yes, it's true just 75$.
#8
Mail: asymetrisk@hotmail.com
UIN: 8206153
03/19/2001 (9:06 am)
Haha, Im sorry for that Charles. Lgx is just a man who likes to do everything at one time...the good thing is that he does it extremely good. Not to bring this posts off topic here so send me a mail or add me to your ICQ if you want to talk more.Mail: asymetrisk@hotmail.com
UIN: 8206153
Torque 3D Owner Brian Smith
That's a pretty decent analogy, I think.
It's a long hard road, but eventually you'll make it. Counter-Strike was created by a group working over the net. Valve wrote the original TF working over the net (IIRC).
So we know it is possible to get fantastic stuff done with a remote team (hey, GG is done largely remotely =P). The problem is avoiding the flakes. The primary reason online teams are inundated with flakes is that when working over the net, there's no real reason for them to work hard, or work at all - and "interview" processes for a MOD team are nonexistant, or at best a joke. What if they don't produce? What if they really have no talent at all? Are you going to kick them off the team? Bah, they don't care. They'll find another team.
Now, when money is involved people tend to be several orders of magnitude more reliable. But where do you get the money? You don't. You have no track record as a company. None of your members have applicable experience. Sorry, but nobody is interested in such an obscene risk.
This reminds me of when I was writing insurance software a few years back. Quake had just come out, and several of the other guys and myself would hang out after work hours and DM - almost every day. I got to playing with QuakeC and made several in-house mods... one day the thought came into my head - "Why not build a cool demo and find a publisher?"
Soon after a realization struck me - even I wouldn't fund myself.
Why? Because the best of intentions aren't worth squat. It takes experience and know-how. So what do you do? Do what 9 out of 10 professional developers recommend - make mods. If you have talent, it will show in your mods. The trick is to have high, yet attainable goals. You'll need quality models, textures and superb level design. Polish, polish, polish. Even if you finish a dozen mods and never take one commercial, you're showing your ability to FINISH.
Another excellent route is to get hired with an established game developer. Sure, it's not the easiest thing to do, but with a couple good mods under your belt, an entry level job isn't out of the question. While there, you'll learn the environment dynamics and business processes that makes a game development company tick. This will be invaluable, as starting a company without any related work or management experience is incredibly difficult.
So, there's my advice. Make mods and be wary of who you work with, and also look for avenues of getting industry experience before you try starting your own company.
=)
-Brian