T2D Performance Concerns
by Gabor Borbely · in General Discussion · 03/10/2005 (3:55 pm) · 21 replies
After dabbling with the T2D demo some more and viewing the T2D demo movie, I've noticed how sluggish the game objects(sprites) are. The more in-game content and scripted sophistication included in your examples, the more this sluggish behavior becomes apparent. Will such issues be addressed in the final release? If not, are there viable work-arounds? I have seen much better , smooher performance in other engines, such as Blitz3D(using the 2D component
of Blitz3D). If the performance can be improved within a reasonable amount of time, I'll seriously condider buying it. :)
of Blitz3D). If the performance can be improved within a reasonable amount of time, I'll seriously condider buying it. :)
#2
03/10/2005 (4:20 pm)
I don't even have a nice machine and I get around 200-300 fpm. So I would advice asking around before making such a brash statement
#3
03/10/2005 (5:05 pm)
@ Charlie - 200-300 Frames Per Minute!?!?! That is horrid! No really...when I tried it, it never bogged, that I noticed. 
#4
03/10/2005 (5:27 pm)
Smooth runnin here! 
#5
But I thought I'd mention that BlitzPlus/3D/Max aren't engines. They're wrapper languages so that you can create your own specific engine in an easy-entry language. They've worked hard to make sure that the languages scale well, too, so that they can be used for small new developers as well as very complex projects. But they're not game engines. Game engines, however, have been built with them.
Edit:
Actually, it would be inaccurate for me to say I haven't had any problem. I've introduced a number of my own problems. I've also run into a couple of things that are on the list to do (it is EA, and is more complete than any other 2D engine I've used).
03/10/2005 (5:37 pm)
Other than the mentioned bugs in the initial demos, I haven't had any problem.But I thought I'd mention that BlitzPlus/3D/Max aren't engines. They're wrapper languages so that you can create your own specific engine in an easy-entry language. They've worked hard to make sure that the languages scale well, too, so that they can be used for small new developers as well as very complex projects. But they're not game engines. Game engines, however, have been built with them.
Edit:
Actually, it would be inaccurate for me to say I haven't had any problem. I've introduced a number of my own problems. I've also run into a couple of things that are on the list to do (it is EA, and is more complete than any other 2D engine I've used).
#6
And, yes, I should have taken the time to consult with others before making any final conclusions about T2D or any thing else for that matter. My case is likely an isolated performance problem that is more than likely due to the hardware configuration I am currentlly using to run the T2D demos. I may have to make some adjustments to my graphics and screen settings to compensate for any perceived discrepancies between the performances of T2D and Blitz3D applications.
Again, I apologize for any misgivings, especially to GarageGames and Stephen Zepp who was so kind as to give me some friendly advice!:) I will follow through on that graphics driver suggestion. May be the cure-all to what ails
the T2D performance on my computer(which so happens to be a sluggish 750 MHz, 256 MB Pentium 3).
03/10/2005 (5:44 pm)
I was in such a hurry to get things done today that I attempted to squeeze as much info as I could into a single message, bad mistake! As Charlie Malbaurn correctly pointed out, I was making a brash statement, even though that is not what I had in mind at the moment. I apologize for this nvertheless and will think things through very carefully before making any such statements in the future.And, yes, I should have taken the time to consult with others before making any final conclusions about T2D or any thing else for that matter. My case is likely an isolated performance problem that is more than likely due to the hardware configuration I am currentlly using to run the T2D demos. I may have to make some adjustments to my graphics and screen settings to compensate for any perceived discrepancies between the performances of T2D and Blitz3D applications.
Again, I apologize for any misgivings, especially to GarageGames and Stephen Zepp who was so kind as to give me some friendly advice!:) I will follow through on that graphics driver suggestion. May be the cure-all to what ails
the T2D performance on my computer(which so happens to be a sluggish 750 MHz, 256 MB Pentium 3).
#7
03/10/2005 (6:06 pm)
It could be. I've used it on a dual-G5, Mac Mini, 1.5g Tablet PC, and a 2.4g Compaq running Redhat. I've used it most on my Tablet PC since it's my laptop and I draw on it. Each has a gig of memory except for the Dual-G5 which has 8. 
#8
The emphasis was really to show what you could do on a small time-budget, not as a feature set of performance-wise but this didn't really come across that well.
We've now fixed these minor problems in the SDK and we'll get a new version of the scroller out. We'll also be releasing lots of other demos as well but the GDC is keeping everyone busy at the moment. :)
I'm sorry if this gave you the wrong impression but if you really want to do a comparison of capabilities then we'd need to have something throwing 100 rigid-body objects around, all interacting with different tile layers, create some see-saws with objects landing and causing other objects to fly upwards. All this stuff is available now and works fast.
I think the other demos will give you a better "feel" for the kind of things you can achieve in T2D and achieve very quickly. The emphasis is, "just think what you could do in 3 months"! We've got people on the T2D private forums who've already created some simple games in a few days and some of these people are not programmers but rather artists.
My only concern is that if these artists can grasp all the concepts of T2D and start pumping-out games, us poor old programmers will become practically obsolete!!!! What have we done!!!
- Melv.
03/11/2005 (1:48 am)
@Gabor: There were many issues with the scroller-demo itself. One of the things we were trying to achieve was showing how you could practically throw together a simple side-scroller in a day or so. We managed to do this but we (read that I) let through a few bugs. I never capped the particle-count, I didn't configure the scene-bins correctly by default in the T2D release, I made a mistake in the iteration limit and a few others. This happened simply because we were also trying to get the T2D SDK out. Just a simple honest mistake.The emphasis was really to show what you could do on a small time-budget, not as a feature set of performance-wise but this didn't really come across that well.
We've now fixed these minor problems in the SDK and we'll get a new version of the scroller out. We'll also be releasing lots of other demos as well but the GDC is keeping everyone busy at the moment. :)
I'm sorry if this gave you the wrong impression but if you really want to do a comparison of capabilities then we'd need to have something throwing 100 rigid-body objects around, all interacting with different tile layers, create some see-saws with objects landing and causing other objects to fly upwards. All this stuff is available now and works fast.
I think the other demos will give you a better "feel" for the kind of things you can achieve in T2D and achieve very quickly. The emphasis is, "just think what you could do in 3 months"! We've got people on the T2D private forums who've already created some simple games in a few days and some of these people are not programmers but rather artists.
My only concern is that if these artists can grasp all the concepts of T2D and start pumping-out games, us poor old programmers will become practically obsolete!!!! What have we done!!!
- Melv.
#9
wait, no. 200 fps! thats it!
03/11/2005 (3:38 am)
200-300 fpm lol. sorry about that I meant 2 frames a second.wait, no. 200 fps! thats it!
#10
This shows much better how quickly you can put together cool game.
He'll probably be releasing the thing publically soon though. :)
- Melv.
Old Dev Shots.
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03/11/2005 (4:17 am)
David "FenrirWolf" Grace has just privately released his demo which took just over a week to do. See here for more details or here (private T2D forums) for details on the private release.This shows much better how quickly you can put together cool game.
He'll probably be releasing the thing publically soon though. :)
- Melv.
Old Dev Shots.
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#11
taste of David's work, I am suddenly become a convert!:) T2D indeed leaves Blitz3D/Plus/Max in the dust, as you have rightfully put it, when it comes to 100% 2D sprite animation and performance!:) Blitze3D cannot seem to handle large animated sprites as well without some noticeable loss of performance and quality. T2D is indeed well worth the cost; so keep up the good work Melv!:)
Best Regards,
Gabor
03/11/2005 (10:00 am)
@Melv: Thank you for your valuable time clarifying the situation you and your team are faced with concerning T2D. The fixes to the SDK and the intended side-scroller refinement are a testament to the integrity of GarageGames, yourself and of course, T2D. But after viewing David Grace's demo and screenshots, I was simply blown away!:) To acheive such framerates and visuals within such a small amount of time is, simply put, baffling to say the least! Had I viewed these earlier, I would have had nothing but high praise and the best things to say on behalf of you and T2D!:) As a matter of fact, after my initialtaste of David's work, I am suddenly become a convert!:) T2D indeed leaves Blitz3D/Plus/Max in the dust, as you have rightfully put it, when it comes to 100% 2D sprite animation and performance!:) Blitze3D cannot seem to handle large animated sprites as well without some noticeable loss of performance and quality. T2D is indeed well worth the cost; so keep up the good work Melv!:)
Best Regards,
Gabor
#12
Be sure to tell your friends about this as well, especially on the blitz forums. ;)
You can find more of Davids cool stuff on his site here.
* tasteless marketing mode off*
Well we're just getting started and T2D is only going to get better and better with more features, documentation, demos and tutorials.
- Melv.
03/11/2005 (10:46 am)
* tasteless marketing mode on*Be sure to tell your friends about this as well, especially on the blitz forums. ;)
You can find more of Davids cool stuff on his site here.
* tasteless marketing mode off*
Well we're just getting started and T2D is only going to get better and better with more features, documentation, demos and tutorials.
- Melv.
#13
Cheers!:)
Gabor
03/11/2005 (11:56 am)
Lol, To the Blitz forums I'll go to spread the good news!:) Cheers!:)
Gabor
#14
Any chance you could have thumbnails in that post instead of the extremely large images? Imageshack will host em and make auto-thumbnails for use in forums.
03/11/2005 (3:00 pm)
@MelvAny chance you could have thumbnails in that post instead of the extremely large images? Imageshack will host em and make auto-thumbnails for use in forums.
#15
I didn't change the size from the originals that David posted. I have reduced them to links only though.
Hope this helps,
- Melv.
03/12/2005 (6:00 am)
Todd,I didn't change the size from the originals that David posted. I have reduced them to links only though.
Hope this helps,
- Melv.
#16
03/12/2005 (7:20 am)
There was quite a bit of positive buzz on the Bltiz forums about T2D. A few newer users were a bit skeptical, but that was because they didn't see them as separate types of products. It was generating a lot of interest from long-time Blitzers, though. Which is positive because the people who have shown interest are all extremely helpful people and would make excellent additions to the T2D userbase, just as a lot of us have made positive contributions to the Blitz site. 
#17
These problems were not the fault of T2D itself, but just the quick and dirty nature of the demo we did. We spent about an hour going back over it after release and it performs much, much, much better now (eg even w/ full effects, haven't seen it go less than 200 fps even on a geforce 2). The Mac and Linux versions of the demo already feature this updated version.
03/12/2005 (12:45 pm)
Gabor, I didn't have time to read this whole thread as I just got back from GDC and am exhausted, but I'd just say that if you are using the T2D demo on Windows, we've since modified the demo to fix the performance problems.These problems were not the fault of T2D itself, but just the quick and dirty nature of the demo we did. We spent about an hour going back over it after release and it performs much, much, much better now (eg even w/ full effects, haven't seen it go less than 200 fps even on a geforce 2). The Mac and Linux versions of the demo already feature this updated version.
#18
it performs about like a p3 450 I guess.
So i would say on a p3 500 and geforce2/gts there would be no performance concerns unless you were really pushing the physics.
As for b3d ,Theres alot of work to be done to make a 2d in 3d engine.(then you really need to make it single surface for speed) or use regular 2d,but some modern effects can be kinda rough to achieve in standard 2d, modulation of sprites ect.
I think you can buy the source code for such things on the b3d forums (toolbox)
A better comparison is Gamemakers latest realese, which is 2d in 3d and performs fairly well.(not all that robust,but it is a game engine)
while I havent purchased yet...overall t2d looks like a winner.
Zmatrix
03/12/2005 (1:20 pm)
I posted on another thread that I was getting 60+ (more of an average of 75) even on a 733 celeron with a pci GeforceMXit performs about like a p3 450 I guess.
So i would say on a p3 500 and geforce2/gts there would be no performance concerns unless you were really pushing the physics.
As for b3d ,Theres alot of work to be done to make a 2d in 3d engine.(then you really need to make it single surface for speed) or use regular 2d,but some modern effects can be kinda rough to achieve in standard 2d, modulation of sprites ect.
I think you can buy the source code for such things on the b3d forums (toolbox)
A better comparison is Gamemakers latest realese, which is 2d in 3d and performs fairly well.(not all that robust,but it is a game engine)
while I havent purchased yet...overall t2d looks like a winner.
Zmatrix
#19
@Zmatrix: The newly updated demo appears to run at least as fast on my machine, if not a lot faster!:) A huge improvement over the previous installment!:)
B3d will obviously be a big deal to work with given your accurate assessment of the technology. Its hardly a match to the speed and efficiency of T2D and will require additional third party add-ons to make anything close to T2D's capability. T2D is a far cry from anything 2D I have seen to date , thanks to everybody's encouragement on this thread, to the hard work of Josh, Melv and team, and of course to the new demo!:) T2D is certainly the winner!:)
Gabor
03/12/2005 (5:55 pm)
@Josh: Thank you for taking the extra time out responding to this thread!:) I re-downloaded and installed the T2D Demo today; performs a whole lot better and without any of the previous glitches!:) The current framerate? Not exactly sure, but miles from the sluggish behavior a few days ago!:) Likely 100-150 FPS. Thats what it seems anyway!(maybe more):) This engine truly lives up to the hype its been given from the start! And I can't wait to get my hands on this remarkable piece of engineering; will have to wait a few days I guess before the mail-order reaches your door sometime this coming week!:) Keep up the good stuff Josh!:)@Zmatrix: The newly updated demo appears to run at least as fast on my machine, if not a lot faster!:) A huge improvement over the previous installment!:)
B3d will obviously be a big deal to work with given your accurate assessment of the technology. Its hardly a match to the speed and efficiency of T2D and will require additional third party add-ons to make anything close to T2D's capability. T2D is a far cry from anything 2D I have seen to date , thanks to everybody's encouragement on this thread, to the hard work of Josh, Melv and team, and of course to the new demo!:) T2D is certainly the winner!:)
Gabor
Torque 3D Owner Stephen Zepp
Most of the developers using T2D currently with nice machines see 270-300-ish FPS, and can only get that to drop with a LOT of particles/objects on the screen at once.