Overtime for EA Employees
by Ian Smithers · in General Discussion · 03/10/2005 (4:40 am) · 49 replies
Clicky.
I like this particular part myself:
"This tears at the employment model that Silicon Valley was built on," said Rusty Rueff, the director of human resources for Electronic Arts, which has 5,800 workers. Overtime pay will move game developers "out of a culture that emphasizes entrepreneurialism and ownership and into a clock-watching mentality," he said.
Yes curse those people who work 7 days a week and *gasp* watch the clock...
Ian
I like this particular part myself:
"This tears at the employment model that Silicon Valley was built on," said Rusty Rueff, the director of human resources for Electronic Arts, which has 5,800 workers. Overtime pay will move game developers "out of a culture that emphasizes entrepreneurialism and ownership and into a clock-watching mentality," he said.
Yes curse those people who work 7 days a week and *gasp* watch the clock...
Ian
#2
03/10/2005 (7:34 am)
What amazes me is that they think this sort of intimidation might work. SOP for companies like EA is to liquidate individuals (or studios, for that matter) as soon as a project is completed. What do EA's current seatwarmers care if their jobs are going to Orlandoids instead of some fresh face in the Valley? They're unemployed either way. 
#3
"Yes, YOU are our most valuable resource. YOU are responsible for the health and welfare of this company! We want YOU to gain all the benefits of your success of this organization. We can't do it without YOU. Oh, well, actually we can, and want you to know that you are easy to replace and we can do it in a heartbeat."
03/10/2005 (11:21 am)
What's funny is that the second statement (the threat) totally exposes the lie of the first statement (about the "Culture of Enterpreneurialism and Ownership.""Yes, YOU are our most valuable resource. YOU are responsible for the health and welfare of this company! We want YOU to gain all the benefits of your success of this organization. We can't do it without YOU. Oh, well, actually we can, and want you to know that you are easy to replace and we can do it in a heartbeat."
#4
...that's my 2 pennies.
03/10/2005 (7:07 pm)
As a member of organized labor, I can tell you that workers died protesting treatment by employers many years ago. The result of these sacrafices and others were the 5 day week, lunch hr., overtime, and perhaps a few other things the average worker of today takes for granted[that is in no way actually a MEMBER of LABOR]. You who do the work[ie, spend the Time; ya don't get that stuf back, folks...] need to stand up for yourselves and not be fooled by this, "we're in this together" slight of hand that is somewhat atypical from the few who control the most wealth and refuse to recognize how it was actually created. I hope these employees get every last thing they feel entitled to....that's my 2 pennies.
#5
Makes you think, Doesn't it?
03/13/2005 (1:02 pm)
Just over two week ago I interviewed at EA down in Playa Vista and saw some very interesting things. Right off the bat the buildings, they have two on the sight, are gated and you have to go by a guardhouse and check in. Next you find out that they have Valet Parking. The lobby is so large it could hold any of the development companies I've worked for, and had both a company shop and a concessionaire that was as well stocked as any Starbucks I've been to. I bring this up to just ask this question, are all these perks really less expensive than paying a "fairs day wage for a fairs day work" for the staff? Makes you think, Doesn't it?
#6
03/13/2005 (3:42 pm)
I'm curious. How is it that EA is being unfair to its employees?
#7
03/13/2005 (3:55 pm)
They make them work too much, pay them too little, and they fire them after a title has been shipped.
#8
03/13/2005 (4:06 pm)
But the article clearly states that the hours they work are normal for the industry and there was nothing in it to say that they get paid less than other people in the industry. Contract work is also normal in the game industry. How is it they are being treated unfairly?
#9
03/13/2005 (4:13 pm)
It's ok ... it'll just empower the independent industry that much more.
#10
03/13/2005 (4:18 pm)
People don't want to have the life sucked out of them for some stupid games (that aren't even their own creative works anymore). The whole of the standard industry is moving toward normal hours. People shouldn't have to work more than 40 hours a week especially not on cookie cutter sports games that aren't really covered under the creative pretenses that allow such hours to be worked without overtime. I think actually that's the biggest argument. The crazy hours were allowed because of other industries like the movie industry ... basically creative hours are different than normal labor hours. However, in EA's case these people aren't being creative anymore ... they are being told what to make and how to make it ... it's more like an assembly line now and no one should be forced to work on an assembly line for 80 hours a week.
#11
So you have been part of the creative development of games at EA?
How are they being forced?
03/13/2005 (4:23 pm)
Quote:
However, in EA's case these people aren't being creative anymore ... they are being told what to make and how to make it ... it's more like an assembly line now
So you have been part of the creative development of games at EA?
Quote:
...no one should be forced to work on an assembly line for 80 hours a week.
How are they being forced?
#12
03/13/2005 (4:24 pm)
Another thing I'm curious about is how the people in this thread think a fair compensation should be determined.
#13
Now you ask, "How are they being forced?" Well, in the course of development you are given projects that are your responsibility to complete by specified milestone deadlines. Frequently when these milestone deadlines are created vacation time is not taken into account. Even without vacation time taken into account these dates can be set very aggressively in an attempt to push the limits of productivity. If you then decide to take vacation time you might fall behind schedule and if this happens you can expect to find that your project has been handed off to someone who was "hardcore" enough to not take vacation and stayed late nights to get the project back on schedule. Who do you think will get the better review at review time?
When projects are completed people get layed off. It is a fact. Every project I worked on had people get layed off after it shipped. Just based on a quick guess, I would say that in my five years at EA I worked on projects with over forty people who were eventually layed off. I am talking about people I worked with, not acquaintances. This creates an atmosphere of extreme competitiveness, especially when teams get narrowed down into people who consistently work late hours and skip vacation. I was able to survive all those years at the company by dropping out of college, working sixty to eighty hour weeks, and giving up my social life. Even with that dedication I was still layed off after my first year before being rehired by a different department. Also, in all those years I never took one vacation and was never advised to do so by HR.
That being said, I did value my time at EA as a learning experience and am not one of the many people trying to sue them. However, I only see things getting worse for workers in software development as more companies begin outsourcing to countires that lack our advancements in labor law.
03/13/2005 (10:59 pm)
This is my experience from working at EA. The company said workers were compensated for their extra time working on products and this came in the form of bonuses and comp time. However, I had friends who worked on expansion pack after expansion pack under insane schedules who surpassed their maximum comp time limit and were thereafter not receiving full compensation for extra hours worked.Now you ask, "How are they being forced?" Well, in the course of development you are given projects that are your responsibility to complete by specified milestone deadlines. Frequently when these milestone deadlines are created vacation time is not taken into account. Even without vacation time taken into account these dates can be set very aggressively in an attempt to push the limits of productivity. If you then decide to take vacation time you might fall behind schedule and if this happens you can expect to find that your project has been handed off to someone who was "hardcore" enough to not take vacation and stayed late nights to get the project back on schedule. Who do you think will get the better review at review time?
When projects are completed people get layed off. It is a fact. Every project I worked on had people get layed off after it shipped. Just based on a quick guess, I would say that in my five years at EA I worked on projects with over forty people who were eventually layed off. I am talking about people I worked with, not acquaintances. This creates an atmosphere of extreme competitiveness, especially when teams get narrowed down into people who consistently work late hours and skip vacation. I was able to survive all those years at the company by dropping out of college, working sixty to eighty hour weeks, and giving up my social life. Even with that dedication I was still layed off after my first year before being rehired by a different department. Also, in all those years I never took one vacation and was never advised to do so by HR.
That being said, I did value my time at EA as a learning experience and am not one of the many people trying to sue them. However, I only see things getting worse for workers in software development as more companies begin outsourcing to countires that lack our advancements in labor law.
#14
I'm just telling you what I read are the claims of the people filing these suits. They don't feel that they are being creative. This also probably explains why they are drawing a line between those who will and won't get overtime but instead stock options and bonuses.
Because everyone excepts it to be industry standard to work 80 hours a week and that if they don't like it to quit. That's BS ... they should be able to do the job but not have to work 80 hours a week for fear of getting layed off or anything else. The industry has no protection for its people and if you can't see how this is unfair then it's not going to help for me to explain it.
Fair compensation would be for the bigwigs to accept that these games should be able to be completed in 40 hours a week or something's wrong. That's a normal work week and would allow the developers to actually have decent family lives etc....
Working 80 hours a week on your own personal project is fine ... it's your labor of love. The game industry was built on that premise ... however now it's not like that. These developers are pushing out a product that's not really their creative little baby ... they are pushing out small gears in a much larger machine. Reproducing characters from licensed properties or sports players isn't creative ... it's an assembly line (at least that's part of the argument).
There are guys at the top making millions off of these programmers, artists, testers, etc... and those guys don't work 80 hours a week. How about that? Garage Games was built because of that garbage and it really isn't fair.
03/13/2005 (11:44 pm)
Quote:
So you have been part of the creative development of games at EA?
I'm just telling you what I read are the claims of the people filing these suits. They don't feel that they are being creative. This also probably explains why they are drawing a line between those who will and won't get overtime but instead stock options and bonuses.
Quote:
How are they being forced?
Because everyone excepts it to be industry standard to work 80 hours a week and that if they don't like it to quit. That's BS ... they should be able to do the job but not have to work 80 hours a week for fear of getting layed off or anything else. The industry has no protection for its people and if you can't see how this is unfair then it's not going to help for me to explain it.
Quote:
Another thing I'm curious about is how the people in this thread think a fair compensation should be determined.
Fair compensation would be for the bigwigs to accept that these games should be able to be completed in 40 hours a week or something's wrong. That's a normal work week and would allow the developers to actually have decent family lives etc....
Working 80 hours a week on your own personal project is fine ... it's your labor of love. The game industry was built on that premise ... however now it's not like that. These developers are pushing out a product that's not really their creative little baby ... they are pushing out small gears in a much larger machine. Reproducing characters from licensed properties or sports players isn't creative ... it's an assembly line (at least that's part of the argument).
There are guys at the top making millions off of these programmers, artists, testers, etc... and those guys don't work 80 hours a week. How about that? Garage Games was built because of that garbage and it really isn't fair.
#15
03/13/2005 (11:46 pm)
[EDITED for diatribe]
#17
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0945466412/qid=1110786923/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_...
Economic illiteracy is the root of all evil.
03/13/2005 (11:56 pm)
Here, for God's sake, read an economics text that ISN'T Marxist -www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0945466412/qid=1110786923/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_...
Economic illiteracy is the root of all evil.
#18
It's got little to do with economics and more to do with the golden rule ... he with the gold makes the rules ... something like that was said by an evil villain somewhere. That's what they're doing ... manipulating developers and players with their money.
The goal of a business isn't to just make more money. Anyone who thinks that has a narrow mind and has over simplified their life to avoid taking moral responsibility.
03/14/2005 (12:38 am)
Economics in this case are skewed ... EA started out showcasing it's developers and their talents giving them individuality (not unlike Garage Games today). They created innovative software and were indeed lead by an innovator. That's how they got big ... now that they are big they've got an unfair advantage with all those wads of cash they originally earned and they use that to tilt the scales how they want. Now all the developers are faceless drones and it's all run by a "money guy" ... not an innovator.It's got little to do with economics and more to do with the golden rule ... he with the gold makes the rules ... something like that was said by an evil villain somewhere. That's what they're doing ... manipulating developers and players with their money.
The goal of a business isn't to just make more money. Anyone who thinks that has a narrow mind and has over simplified their life to avoid taking moral responsibility.
#19
Please continue the thread as though I never came in. I really don't have anything productive to offer other than to ask you to read the book I recommended. I can't explain economics to you in this forum - it really does take a book to understand the fundemental. It's a lot like learning Algebra for the first time. If you refuse to read it, then I'm better spending my time on other things.
But, every thread where I see a mass of economic illiteracy as I see here, I'll post a link to this book. It's the only thing I can really do.
03/14/2005 (12:41 am)
*Gives up*Please continue the thread as though I never came in. I really don't have anything productive to offer other than to ask you to read the book I recommended. I can't explain economics to you in this forum - it really does take a book to understand the fundemental. It's a lot like learning Algebra for the first time. If you refuse to read it, then I'm better spending my time on other things.
But, every thread where I see a mass of economic illiteracy as I see here, I'll post a link to this book. It's the only thing I can really do.
#20
This is definitely debatable. Are you suggesting that this "mass of economic illiteracy" in some way contributes to "evil"? You might have more success at portraying your ideas if you learned to not speak in such a condescending manner.
I suspect that this topic is more about project management than economics. EA is quick to blame its employees for complaining about being over-worked, but the employees and the way they are being compensated are not the root of the problem. EA and other publishers might want to look deeper into this issue and start asking themselves why they cannot seem to complete projects without over-working their employees. In fact this would be the moral thing to do, along with legally compensating their employees. Unfortunatly morality is in short supply within corporate America.
Gamasutra - Making Great Games In 40 Hours Per Week
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Answers to some questions Ben asked that I missed.
"I'm curious. How is it that EA is being unfair to its employees?"
"Another thing I'm curious about is how the people in this thread think a fair compensation should be determined."
The suit is over workers not being legally compensated. Not compensating an employee as is required by law is not fair.
[edit - url]
03/14/2005 (2:09 am)
Bryan - "Economic illiteracy is the root of all evil."This is definitely debatable. Are you suggesting that this "mass of economic illiteracy" in some way contributes to "evil"? You might have more success at portraying your ideas if you learned to not speak in such a condescending manner.
I suspect that this topic is more about project management than economics. EA is quick to blame its employees for complaining about being over-worked, but the employees and the way they are being compensated are not the root of the problem. EA and other publishers might want to look deeper into this issue and start asking themselves why they cannot seem to complete projects without over-working their employees. In fact this would be the moral thing to do, along with legally compensating their employees. Unfortunatly morality is in short supply within corporate America.
Gamasutra - Making Great Games In 40 Hours Per Week
-----
Answers to some questions Ben asked that I missed.
"I'm curious. How is it that EA is being unfair to its employees?"
"Another thing I'm curious about is how the people in this thread think a fair compensation should be determined."
The suit is over workers not being legally compensated. Not compensating an employee as is required by law is not fair.
[edit - url]
Torque Owner Teck Lee Tan
"We can do this in Vancouver, Montreal, or Orlando," said Jeff Brown, vice president for Electronic Arts. "We're not even talking yet about China."
His wording, to me, tells me they don't value their employees in the least, and they have no qualms about saying it bluntly. Rather than "we'll need to work out a fair compromise," it reads as "You want fair compensation? Well screw you, we'll just hire elsewhere."