We'd still be playing Pong without WHOM?

#41 I run into Full Sail students all the time here in Orlando. They (well typically their parents) are spending a ton of money to go to that school. I actually went on a tour there and spoke with instructors as I was looking for a couple of interns. I ended up with a couple of students from the University of Central Florida as their math skills were better. I think schools like Full Sail could potentially be better if they concetrated a little less on the bling and more on the beef. If anyone is serious about any type of 3D programming, linear algegra is a must as far as I am concerned - and I am not talking about "maths" found in an online tutorial, but at least a semester's worth at the junior college level.

I felt bad for the kids I talked to. It was almost like the American Idol outtakes. A lot of them have a lot of heart and ambition, but they just plain lack the skills that these schools are not teaching to them. But like anything, there will be that one success story to come out of these schools and the administrators will milk it for their marketing campaigns.

And that ad bothered me too. All I could think of was the Class of 2005 making another bitchin' GTA clone, or some boring ass MMORPG.

#42 People learn something, overall, advance, then learn more...each experience adding further detail...similar to building a game...for some it may take a while before the whole picture 'clicks'...

#43 Mod note: This thread had a lot of crappy interpersonal stuff going on in it. I cleaned it up. Keep it that way.

#44 Was almost an informative thread, until it turned into Romper Room...

#45 The biggest problem I see with these school (presently attending one - In the first Game Design class at my school) is not the school itself, its the people that appeal to the school... A large ammount of the people coming in are straight out of High School and are delusional... they think they will be rolling in money and playing games for a career...

In my school the second class is Logical and Design, third class is the first programming class... in the Logic class about half of the class either drops out or fails out, in the programing class another third fail or drop out... Its a wake up call, they realize this isn't easy (on the same note pratically nothing in life is). Its amazing how some of these people can be so unmotivated...

on the other hand three people in my class (and I) make up our team... one is 34, one is 27, one is 19 straight out of high school (I'm not much older with just having a computer networking degree under my belt)... All three of them are not the stereotype of "spoiled" etc etc... they are the complete opposite (even the guy whose 19 - hes extremely motivated)...

I don't think its an age thing (though I do think those younger tend to fall more so in the category), its a person to person thing. The older you get the more opportunities you get to mature, it doesn't mean that you do, I know people 50+ who are finally growing up and becomming self motivated.


Its like being in this community, there are those that come that want something for nothing, that try and complain about it being too hard (even if the path is made as easy as possible)... does that then make the community a bad thing, we should then disband any Indie game community because naturally those type of people are attracted ? I would think not...

and Bryan, you have some very (in my opinion) ignorant views on people who have gone to college... When you see what a persons done you can learn something about them, college is definately not the only way to prove dedication and loyalty, though it can quite often be so. If you see that someone endured a college program and has a good portfolio so show because of it then you can get a sense of the person, while these stereotypical spoiled kids will be quite different, they may graduate, though their portfolio as well as the information they relay will be quite different.


The sad thing about all this is the schools are very commerial... they try to pull in these kids who blow thousands of their parents money... All in all I don't really care that much, I'm paying my way (quite a hefty tuition)... I work my ass off in the morning (at my day job- PC tech, web designer), go to classes during the day (Some very good ones I might add, have had some instructors that really do know what their talking about, one that worked at Dynamix, another worked on many games in the Command and Conquer series( as well as 15+ other titles)) then at night I either work on resources for T2D, work on learning more myself, read programming/ game design books, work on my project, work on websites, work on client web sites... etc....
I work my ass off, like many in this community (as well as GG) do and I do find it offensive that some people here (specificaly Bryan) has such a closed mind towards education, sounds like a personal beef against it, maybe you were failed out, maybe someone with a degree was chosen for a job over you, not sure but sounds like you have some very narrow minded views towards it...

I think education is good, not the only choice, but just like a book you can p ick it up and pick out the good parts then learn more from another book, or you can drop it and say its complete junk...

I choose to put my all in and get it all back...

like I said before, and I completely stand by it,

You get out of anything what you put in...

#46 The ad was a little too cocky, and yeah, if that's the guy's attitude then he probably won't be employed (very long).

On the other hand, talent varies between individuals. Schooling merely assists that talent, and some people do just fine without a lot of schooling, because they know how to teach themselves.

So even if most people at these schools are American Idolesque, rich, talentless hacks, there's still going to be a few of them that excel. Just like everywhere else... my university's CS program for example, consists of a lot of people who are half-decent at math, heard computer science makes good money, but can't for the life of them understand what classes are useful for.

In any case, I can't see why anyone thinks this is a bad thing. Let these guys nab a job at EA and work a death march. When it comes to the jobs really worth having, you need a lot more than a piece of paper to get in the door.

#47 Interesting thread.. I am glad too see that I am not alone in my perceptions ( I was starting to feel like an old crumugeon).

My views are something like this.

There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance.

The is a difference between aptitude and ability.

Many of the resumes I read from the graduates of these places have a lot of confidence, not a lot of ability, and in many cases, not a lot of aptitude.

I am not sure if the schools are creating a false sense of the extent of their abilities among the students.. but it would appear to be that way. It seems that many think they know it all, when in fact they know very little.

I think this is why they get a bad rap.. they are teaching the skills, but they also seem to be breeding an attitude that the skills that are taught are adeauate (and often exceed) those of the people working in games right now.

I have gotten a few gems from the stack of crap.. guys and girls with exceptional abilites, confidence in their abilities, and enough wisdom to realize that what they have is aptitude, and not ability.. yet.

Those that will succeed in becoming good game designers come from all walks of life.. both those formally educated and those who are self taught. I have my own opinions that have been formed that for me, are a time saving measure when looking at resumes..

For me, it is not the skills, but the attitude that is associated with these schools that is the problem. If you attend one, and you have talent, you may be getting some great skills, but you also may be unfairly labeled because of it.

It is ironic, to me, that the ad does more to perpetuate the feeling among those doing the hiring that these places might not be the best places to look for fresh talent.

#48 @Josh Williams: Thank you, it was much needed.

WRT the ad: I thought it was outrageous (my actual reaction was "Oh, please") when I saw it in GD, but not necessarily insulting. If anything, it concerns me that these programs aren't adequately preparing students to find a job in the industry. It's very big business now, and students really need to be prepared for that bit of culture shock. Creative, fun, different that almost any other job you can get - but at the start, middle and end of every day it's business.

For myself, as a current developer for a large company, I'm going to look at their portfolio, resume and cover letter. If they present themselves well enough to make it to an interview, I'm going to ask them how they approached what they've shown me, with what tools, and listen to what they have to say. I'm going to give heavy consideration to creative solutions to complex issues, and new approaches to simple ones. Anything vague, high handed, generally indicating a lack of understanding of team environments or overly arrogant is going to affect how I score them. (And yes, it gets that nitty gritty - you may never know it, but you'll be scored, ranked, sorted and evaluated on how much they think it's going to cost to hire.)

So basically, I don't care where they went to school or what degree they earned; I graduated from the University of Oklahoma's College of Architecture with distinction and it took me 6 years to find a position building environments for the game industry. In 8 the years since, I've worked with people that only have high school degrees and people that have graduate degrees - in that time I've been constantly reminded of what a good friend and architect told me when I was in school: "You'll never get more off the drawing board than what you bring to it." The same holds true for game development, more so perhaps as genres and audiences broaden and we struggle to find innovation and inspiration for each new title.

Hopefully, that helps someone out there.

- Don

Oh yes, one more thing - someone mentioned designers and the idea of board / paper game devlopment being useful. It is for a fact - several of our designers have written rules for miniatures games, CCGs and board games. We also had the priveledge of working with Zeb Cook of D&D fame for a while; what a great experience! It all comes back to that idea of bringing more to the table helps you walk away with a better product.

*edited for spelling. =P

#49 Josh : thanks for doing that :)
Although, I'm going to edit my post so the sentence you edited is not as repetitive
Apologies for contributing to the mess, didn't realize that innocuous statement would fuel oil to the fire...

Don : when I first got into game design as a wee lad of 11 or 12 in the early 80s, we did both paper/board wargames and RPGs, as well as small computer games with RPG elements and P&P RPG aids :)
Game design is game design, and game development is game development from the designer's perspective, whether he actually does the implementation or just guides it.
You're absolutely right :)
And while in this day and age, with PCs and game dev tools being so cheap (thanks GG ;)), it isn't obvious what could be gained from doing more traditional game design, there is much to be gained from doing it anyway :
Experience and insight, as well as a broader view of what making games entails, be it how to make it fun, or interesting if it's more of a serious simulation, etc.

#50 @Jason: agreed, definately too cocky and completely agree with you on letting them nab the jobs at EA etc lol... I'm full Indie and if they don't see the benefit of that they are the ones that lose...

@Joe: I like your views... especially on viewing people by attitude, there are so many people that judge people instantly on many different things, whether its college, background, childhood, etc... I also find it very ironic and extremeley disapointing, though not surprising...

I hate to admit it but my school really does not prepare its students with the right skills, 90% of what I have learned that is of use in the game project I'm working on I learned on the side (much from this community)... so in certain cases the students may be motivated enough to do it on their own anyways and can use the school for getting at least educational software and access to labs (basically what I'm doing), many do not and without putting a lot of effort on the side the school is leaving them inadequate...

I would definately attest to that point, that at least my school isn't preparing its students well enough, though I have little sympathy for those that don't put effort in on their own time. For me my school is simply a resource, it allows me access to software that I normally wouldn't have, as well as labs.

easily 98% of the students in my program fit the stereotype... it is extremely sad in some respect considering the school is simply trying to make a lot of money... on the other hand I see the students putting very little and, so they get little out... *shrug* In any case it matters little to me (not to sound too cold), my team and I plan to have a T2D game out in 3 months, maybe another 2D one after (or may start working on a 3D)... I personally do web design and hosting, we plan on upping that, the goal is to sustain ourselves off of Indie projects and web hosting... Its almost pathetic seeing the lack of motivation these students have, they act like they're still in high school... though I try to keep humble and maybe point them to some good resources (like here) though they often don't listen...

#51 Sigh all the things I read now turn into an argument... like both the new GG upcoming releases which should have been happy. maybe all the programming/modeling/whatever else people do is getting us stressed out. (I know I am).

#52 @Master Treb: yeah... I think everyones just a bit stressed lately... especially with GDC just over all the engery and build up is coming out... though I think this has turned fairly productive (thx to Josh cleaning it up) - I hope people aren't taking my comments as I'm upset (if anything upset at my school), just sharing my perspective in one of these schools

#53 @Nicolas: Oh how familiar that sounds! =) I used to spend hours typing in those programs from Dragon Magazine, or trying to convert Car Wars to a computer game on the TRS-80! What fun it was - and still is!

- Don

#54 Hi my name is David Koontz and I am a senior at UAT with 6 weeks left before I am DONE! I can tell you from personal experience that UAT's marketing department exists somewhere between Left Field and the Parking lot when it comes to having a clue. Myself, and two of my friends from UAT have been interviewed about projects we have done and were all misquoted or simply had words put in our mouths. I have talked to Mr. Hartlieb before and I do not think that quote would have come from him, at least not quite in that manner. It's pretty much a regular thing when friends come over to play board games (yes, we do study board games) to break out the newest GD mag and see the crazy stupid ads UAT is slopping about. Many of my friends wouldn't believe what we were telling them until they saw it for themselves.

To answer the questions about what the school is all about, that's pretty simple: making money. In the three years I've been at the school I've seen tuition go up almost every semester to the point that it is pretty ridiculous (almost twice ASU), even for a private school. The instructors here in the game design department are sub-par and none have real industry experience. The teachers do try, I will give them credit for that but it's not the same as having really qualified people. The staff has been pretty successful at making contacts in the industry. We had Sammy studios offer internships that turned into employment for at least one student.

Now I'm in the Software Engineering track and just dabble in the game design courses because I found them to be nowhere meaty enough. Just a bunch of fluff and articles printed from Gamasutra. For the 80% or so of students who are there on a parent's dime or just killing time because they have no clue what to do with their lives this is fine and they smile and nod. For the real designers, the ones who aren't going to be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives they take the little nuggets of gold and then put in a ton of their own work to produce some amazing things. I've seen some Warcraft 3 projects that rivals the quality of missions in the actual game. The majority though, as stated by other posters, are going nowhere fast. I would expect this to be the norm though, how many people with accounts at GG or gamedev.net are actually making a game and not just wannabes?

With all that said, I don't think my time at UAT has been a total waste in the game design department. I have met some amazing people here who have built great games and continue to inspire me to continue my own development. One such game built by Tommy Visic was Glace which I ran the QA for. http://www.tommyvisic.com/Glace/ Of course the game was built without support from the school but that's not the point. The point is you have a great pool of talented individuals who are there to make games and that can sometimes overcome the deficits in the education. Most of what I've learned has been outside school, my classes are largely for show (although there *have* been a few gems). Without the peer support though, I'm not sure if I would have come as far as I have.

I started UAT just before the explosion of game design schools. Given the choice now I would have chosen the Guildhall at SMU or something in southern California. I agree with the poster above who suggested that established universities that offer game design courses are more suitable for finding qualified people than pure "game design" schools. I definitely think there were some big holes in the education here that I had to patch up on my own time. As has been said before several times, you get out what you put in.

#55 @David: I've had similar experiences going to Collins College... especially considering I'm throwing more than double ASU tuition money at them...

on the other hand I've found a couple instructors invaluable, though this has nothing to due with the school or its ciriculum, just luck that they happened to snag some good Game Developers (and by some I mean 2-3)

#56 I certainly would not hire a guy with an attitude like that. Even if he had some practical experience (something more than a Quake 2 mod under his belt), I still wouldn't hire anyone with that kind of attitude. Seems to me that this type of arrogance has no place on a game design team--I think his 'all that' attitude would not be a trait helpful to a team trying to work together and complete a project. Plus, I am really not impressed by his BA anyway...I don't care if he has a PhD, or an RoSCv8A.3, doesn't mean a thing to me.

Besides, the guy seems to be better suited for modeling underwear for Calvin Klein...and what does he have jammed in his throat?? He's obviously uncomfortable, tugging at his shirt...poor guy's probably having trouble breathing. He should see a doctor--it might be a tumor...looks like a tumor. It also looks like both sides of his jaw have caved in...plus he's got eye-liner and lip-stick on...not that there's anything...wrong with that....

#57 Ugg... stupid marketing...
i doubt that guy ever said anything like that. I mean... the school has banners that advertise "Hackerdegree.com" *shakes his head*... nuff said.

#58 I go to this school and am friends with the guy in the ad... HE NEVER SAID THIS!!! The person who made the ad, put that quote there. So do not rag on Mark, infact our school as excellent relations with Garage Games they support us and we support them.

Also UAT is not your typical school that just pounds out people with degrees, so I would advise you to reconsider your stance. Though I respect David Knootz opinion on the school, I think he is very jaded.. the school isnt just about making money, no one at the school is pocketing the money to pay for there ferrari or anything like that. Alot of the money goes back into the school.

#59 I also work at the school, and I will be taking on a new position of the Game Mod/Game Dev Liaison for students. I will be helping them with game projects that will require them to mod, or develop games from the ground up. Using the Torque engines are going to be suggested by me. I am currently working on two game projects using TGE and T2D and will be entering them into the IGF this year.

For those that think UAT just pushes out crappy students..

One of the Day of Defeat Devs went here during the time it was in development.
We currently have students that were hired on by Mythic straight out of school.

Some projects to check out.

http://www.corproject.com/

- this one was showcased at the Discreet booth at this years GDC, along with being demo to Microsoft, EA, Redstorm, Epic, and few other companies and getting an overall good response, with some companies wanting to hire some of the people on the team, since I know the team personally, there general consensus was to continue on and fully complete the game before leaving the team, though I am sure some would leave if the offer was good enough.

another project http://operationanubis.uat.edu/

very nicely polished mod

yes alot of these are mods, and yes we do have games from the ground up coming out of this school. While granted there are alot of non-serious straight out of High School students who do not understand the world yet. But not ALL of us are this way. There are some serious older students here that have lived in the real world and understand the struggles that come with it.

Now me personally, I like the Indie scene and have no desire to work for EA or any big company, I love the freedom it brings even if the money isnt as great at times. I would rather make something I am proud of then to sell-out, to me game creation is an art form, and by NO MEANS is it an easy task.

#60 Schools have to make money too, nothing wrong with that... keep in mind a lot of people who run tech schools are business people... That doesn't mean they can't be wonderful schools, in fact I find that tech schools give you more hands on than State Unversities, though at an increased price as well..