We'd still be playing Pong without WHOM?

#21 @Joe -

Actually, I was being dang serious about the QA thing. If they proved they really knew their stuff, then maybe I'd put them on a design team later.

I think the guy who designed the Katamari Damarcy was someone who graduated from one of these schools. I don't think that the education is valueless - but I sure wouldn't put someone fresh out of school in a leadership position on a game project. Design, QA, Programming, or Art. I thought I knew a hell of a lot when I got out of school, too... and I learned a great deal about how much I didn't know pretty fast.

If someone starts copping an attitude with a quote like that , of course, I might not hire them at all.

#22 You get out of anything what you put in...




schooling, work, hobbys, games... life


I guess even though I've spent the past 2 weeks of my life developing resources for T2D and despite spending 2 hours this morning and 2 hours last night working on a tutorial you are still laughing at me... *shrug* discrimination is ugly... stereotypes are ugly.



I'm currently 6-7 months from graduating with a BA in Game Design... I also have an AA in computer networking / personal computers (my day job) ... I beleive I am quite skilled in networking as well as programming, Torque, and Torque 2D... I presently beleive I contribute to the community, I try to better myself and I try to humble myself daily... just from people like Stephen Zepp, Josh Williams, and Melv May (plus countless others) I am humbled by those that give their all... in turn I give my all.


I take my schooling very seriously and in turn the Instructors do the same, some have some very good game development experience (one was a game designer for Dynamix)... others have experience in other fields... so far I have learned many lessons from all but one instructor (a weird exception)... There are those in my class that I wouldnt trust to sign their own name right nonetheless build a game with me, then there are those in class that I am trusting to make a Torque 2D game with me... (and down the road TGE/TSE)... and I would trust them with my life...

stereotyping is wrong in my opinion, so is grouping people... I know people I graduated networking with that I'd trust with my pc and networks, and others I wouldn't let within the same building... Things tend to be on a more person to person basis than people are comforfortable dealing with, rather than clumping people together with others.

EDIT: btw I think the ad is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen

EDIT EDIT: I currently work during the morning until I hit class just after noon, then I get out of class and drive 45 minutes to work on projects, If I'm lucky I have about 3-5 hours of sleep and I do it all again... I am a PC tech/Web designer/ Computer guy for a company
(http://allstateges.com)

hardly a spoiled brat... I have never been spoiled, always lived under a roof with little money and I am glad that I did (though I don't judge those that were spoiled either)... assumptions are a sign of ignorance

#23 Man - every time I come back to this thread I want to work on Combat-style game like Harold'.

#24 Just to add yet another example Bryan: You do realize that Phil Carlisle is course director for a game development path--is his work "absurd" as well? I guess it follows that the Torque AI Pack is absurd since he's working on it as a member of the team?

Hmm..I guess Torque Boot Camp is "absurd" as well, since it's a follow on to the idea of teaching game development skills to those that want to focus on that.

#25 I think we'd all be a little more comfortable with the ad if they just showed a real picture of the guy. The artwork makes the guy look dishonest and arrogant. He looks more like some kind of secret agent or interior decorator.

Imagine what it would look like with a photo of an honest-looking gamer with a big smile on his face. It probably wouldn't seem arrogant at all. My guess is that the quote actually was more joking in tone and the art puts it in a whole new context.

#26 Well, yes, looking back and cosidering what other people said, I'll have to admit saying a couple stupid things in this thread.

#27 Whoa, what happened to this thread? The point was that the ad was stupid, that there really are people who 'look' and 'act' like that who go to these schools, and it's ridiculous that these are the types of students the marketing guys choose to profile in their ads. Nothing against anyone who goes to schools like these; hell, like I said, I went to one very similar myself.

This is the official 'Everybody chill out' post.

#28

Quote:To all you Game Design grads... know that the industry laughs at you. Good luck finding a job as a game tester working alongside highly qualified high school graduates.

I'm sorry Bryan but that definately hit a chord with me and I'm glad it did with Stephen... I understand how easy things can get carried away and things did... especially when you make broad generalizations... Stephen was just reminding us of the logical way to view this...

I don't think he overreacted... hell glad someone else was offended by this as well...

You made some ridiculous statements, sure they are accurate for some (I know people personally who fit that mold) though you said it in reference to everyone and I strongly disagree with that...

It shows a lot about a person when they can admit they were wrong though, just remember his comments were made before you said you "admit saying a couple stupid things in this thread" so he was still responding to some outrageous statements you made...


on the other hand I know people who fit the mold, spoiled little brats who are going to school for game design, but wait thats true for many going to law school, medical school, business school, etc etc... Its not a school/degree specific limitation. As long as there will be hard working dedicated people there will always be the lazy spoiled ones as well.

#29 On a lighter note I agree this ad is pretty ridiculous, extremely corny as well.

I apologize if I got a bit heated but I take my educational investment (as well as any other investment) very seriously

#30

Quote:on the other hand I know people who fit the mold, spoiled little brats who are going to school for game design, but wait thats true for many going to law school, medical school, business school, etc etc... Its not a school/degree specific limitation. As long as there will be hard working dedicated people there will always be the lazy spoiled ones as well.

Word.

#31 The ad paints a pretty bad picture (in my mind) of the school.

I've been in the position of being one of the people that prospective employees interview with in the past... so knowing that they came from this school wouldn't impress me a great deal. How's that for negative advertising?

But I wouldn't hold it TOO much against them. The right attitude and something of a proof of being able to see something through to completion counts more in my book than a degree anyway.

#32 @ Phil,

dude i thought it was just me. I go to Illinois Institute of Art Chicago. We actually have a game design program now. I'm shocked at some of the people. Maybe i'm being an old man but a lot of them don't seem to know much about industry history or what's going on. Most of them are more concerned about the drawings. I get that the program is about Game Art but many forget the And Design part. I think limiting themselves to just what the program teaches is going to lead to many not getting jobs. As far as that comment about finding testing job goes. and Bryan how many games have you produced. And how can any form of skills based training be absurd? what you fail to realize is that game design methods can be taught, but you can't teach the creative drive. That's coming from the individual. and as most games are complex people need to learn how to make them.

#33 I still believe Game Design degrees are useless and for dupes. I would never hire any of these people. Instead, I would take a look at places like GG for people who have DEMONSTRATED their design skills with a fun little game. The only thing a Game Design degree demonstrates is the ability of the candidate to waste several years proving he can jump through a series of bureaucratic hoops (classes) that are speciously associated with "game deisgn".

If I were hiring for a game design position, I wouldn't need a college drone who has the certification of some ass-backwards politically-correct college. I'd need a creative and enterprising game artist who has enough sense and ambition to ignore the heeds of the college sheeple and do things on his own. I'd take an ambitious GarageGames developer over a college graduate with nothing to show but a piece of paper ANY DAY. The only challenge in college is drudgery. The bar in college is set so low that anyone who can stay awake can pass. The real creative genius types get bored and often don't do as well and prefer to strike out on their own. THAT'S where the real talent is - out there on the edge, pushing it on their own. Everyone else is just circle-jerking with the acedamic establishment as far as I'm concerned.

#34 In a few more years the industry will probably be dependent on degrees from schools like these. When any industry matures education and certification always begin to surface. The ad is goofy but game design education is in its adolescence right now so go figure.

Most of the people here who have published work made it in before the formal education started coming around.

I know I might have gone to a school like this actually if there were such a thing in '97. The only one back then was Digipen and they only offered an Associates at the time which was basically all the same classes I could take locally (C++ programming, calculus, linear algebra, physics, etc, etc...) so I figured why go across the country to learn the same stuff when I could take the classes here and then make my own games.

Right now this still isn't a requirement but give it another 10 years and you probably won't find many people are able to do the same thing. Formal game design education might become standard.

Of course I can completely see it going the other way with all the education coming from the Internet. Personally, I don't think I ever learned as much in school as I have through various game dev communities.

#35 I personally don't have any problem with Game Design programs, I just think the students in them need to realize it's going to take more than that degree to get them a job. Like Marvin said above:

Quote:I think limiting themselves to just what the program teaches is going to lead to many not getting jobs.

If you just go through the program but never allow yourself to become specialized in one area, you're screwed. Companies hire '3d modelers' and 'level designers' and other specific types of designers, not 'game designers'.

#36

Quote:The only challenge in college is drudgery.

Quote:You get out of anything what you put in.

From the crappiest of community colleges (been there) to the most prestigious of top-flight institutions (done that), you get out what you put in.

So put it all in.

#37 Phil, you're wrong. All the big studios hire game designers, who do nothing but design games and lead teams of level designers, artists and coders.

Ultra specialization is even frowned upon, unless you're head and shoulders above the average specialist in that field, but even them, if you can't do anything else, you won't last long : the ideal candidate is someone who knows one field, but is able to learn quickly to deal with the others, be it art, design or coding side.

The best programmers in the industry have often tackled all aspects of development (as in coding AI, platform abstraction, graphics, physics, etc.). I'll even put forth the opinion that you can't be lead programmer otherwise :)

Some of the best game designers I've met can't draw to save their lives, or model, etc.
Some of them can't even do proper level design, and will work hand in hand with their level designers.

And yes, even though I hate to agree [edit : removed references to posts that were removed from the thread], there is a serious stereotype against game dev graduates in the industry, right or wrong, because it seems that the majority of these programs and their curriculum are woefully inadequate.
That's why you're seeing Ubisoft, EA, and co, get involved in starting their own game dev programs in existing universities.
That said, it doesn't mean that someone who graduates from such a program has nothing to offer, or that the people doing their darn best to help those students be able to do what they dream of doing to make a living, are idiots, imcompentents, etc.

My main beef with a lot of those programs is that they tend to be more expensive than a regular university level education, without giving you the backbone that should be in an undergraduate university program : a general education, allowing you to go on with continuous formation and education on your own.
You have the same problem with some specialized IT schools, that churn out very shallow specialists in the latest IT trend, giving out diplomas that can be completely obsolete in as little as a couple years...
That's the problem I see with most specialized gamedev programs : hopefully, the people behind them and teaching in them are aware of the lesson to be learned from specialized IT schools (I know some are ;)), and that work is being done to give real tools for people to have a career in gamedev, and not only fill a drone position with the tools du jour.

Still, a dedicated student, wherever he is, will rise above a program's limitations, and use it as guidelines and opportunities to dig deeper and give himself or herself a real education :)
Kinda what university is supposed to be about ;)

#38 @ Nicolas,
Yes, I agree that studios do hire game designers who oversee game development and lead teams, etc. However, no game company is going to hire someone straight out of school for this. That's why I'm saying you've got to specialize in something. How many of "the best game designers you met" work for a gaming company and have less than 5 years of experience in the industry?

I also agree you have to be good at multiple aspects of game design as you are needed all around during development. I may be wrong here, but from what I understand, these game design degrees teach you a little bit about modeling, a little bit about level design, a little bit about programming, etc. Obviously you have to have more focus outside of the classroom to succeed, and my fear is that ads like the one this thread (used to be) is about are trying to appeal to people with no talent and no specific skills, who will attend thinking they'll graduate knowing everything they need to know about game design.

#39 At least they've got to be reading Game Developer to see that ad...

#40 Ha ha true, so maybe theyre at least aware of games