We'd still be playing Pong without WHOM?
by Jay Barnson · in General Discussion · 03/08/2005 (12:42 pm) · 82 replies
Okay. I wanted to rant a little bit. This ad for the University of Advancing Technology has been in Game Developer Magazine for a while, and it really bugs the crap out of me.
I guess we need to change Mount Rushmore and replace a couple of presidential mugs with this guy, and Al Gore (who invented the Internet, remember).
I tend to agree with Chris Crawford, who describes the role of these schools as "cranking out foot soldiers for the games industry." Evidently they don't teach much of the history of the game industry, or this kid wouldn't be so quick to put himself - with an Unreal Tournament mod to his credit - in the same category as such pioneers a Nolan Bushnell, Toshihiro Nishikado, Ed Logg, Eugene Jarvis, Toru Iwatani, David Crane, Richard Garriott, Will Wright, Sid Meier, Chris Crawford, Steve Wozniak, Jordan Mechner, and Shigeru Miyamoto.
No offense against modders, who do some really cool work and have some great ideas, but when you are standing on the shoulders of giants it's impolite to do your victory dance on their faces. It may just be the marketing department putting words in Mr. Hartlieb's mouth, but still... It comes off as incredibly arrogant, ignorant, and puts me off towards the school in general. What ARE they teaching the kids these days???
(Now hold on while I grab my cane, put in my teeth, and yell at those kids who are in my yard again...)
I guess we need to change Mount Rushmore and replace a couple of presidential mugs with this guy, and Al Gore (who invented the Internet, remember).
I tend to agree with Chris Crawford, who describes the role of these schools as "cranking out foot soldiers for the games industry." Evidently they don't teach much of the history of the game industry, or this kid wouldn't be so quick to put himself - with an Unreal Tournament mod to his credit - in the same category as such pioneers a Nolan Bushnell, Toshihiro Nishikado, Ed Logg, Eugene Jarvis, Toru Iwatani, David Crane, Richard Garriott, Will Wright, Sid Meier, Chris Crawford, Steve Wozniak, Jordan Mechner, and Shigeru Miyamoto.
No offense against modders, who do some really cool work and have some great ideas, but when you are standing on the shoulders of giants it's impolite to do your victory dance on their faces. It may just be the marketing department putting words in Mr. Hartlieb's mouth, but still... It comes off as incredibly arrogant, ignorant, and puts me off towards the school in general. What ARE they teaching the kids these days???
(Now hold on while I grab my cane, put in my teeth, and yell at those kids who are in my yard again...)
About the author
Jay has been a mainstream and indie game developer for a... uh, long time. His professional start came in 1994 developing titles for the then-unknown and upcoming Sony Playstation. He runs Rampant Games and blogs at Tales of the Rampant Coyote.
#2
And I agree with Peter: what's wrong with pong?? I mean, games don't necessarily have to look uber-1337-3d (although they do look nice). I happen to like pong, and the variations that spawn from it.
03/08/2005 (1:13 pm)
Yeah, I agree. A lot of people come across as cocky to me...and it bugs the crap outta me too. Sure, sometimes I guess we deserve bragging rights, but not to the extent of this ad.And I agree with Peter: what's wrong with pong?? I mean, games don't necessarily have to look uber-1337-3d (although they do look nice). I happen to like pong, and the variations that spawn from it.
#4
2 guys paddling each others balls.. come on..
you should all be thanking mark hartlieb!!
03/08/2005 (2:07 pm)
Pong was the gayest game of all time2 guys paddling each others balls.. come on..
you should all be thanking mark hartlieb!!
#5
Understanding how to do that WELL - within the limitations given to you (budget, resource, skill set of the team, etc) - is the mark of a skilled game developer. I have met so many wannabes who don't get this - it's all about bigger, better, badder, cooler graphics, "just like game X but with this many more features..."
A friend of mine is fond of an article published by the American Psychology Association about how people who are woefully incompetent at their assigned task tend to vastly overrate their competence and performance. In other words, they are blissfully ignorant of their own incompetence... they suck so bad they have no clue how bad they suck. The problem is that there's a bad feedback loop - the skill to do something and the skill to evaluate performance are highly correllated.
So I guess I attribute this type of quote and attitude that someone is God's Gift to Game Development with an automatic dismissal that said individual is an idiot until proven otherwise... and I think, "This is the caliber of students this school is cranking out?"
But then, I'm not some game-loving kid who would fall for this advertising ploy --- and I might just sign up believing that four years later I'd be transformed into the next Shigeru Miyamoto, and that there'd be HR representatives from all major publishers appearing at my graduation to beg me on hands and knees to come to their company and shower them with my brilliance, because of course the only reason they keep producing clones and sequels is because they don't have ANYBODY there who is capable of original and creative game ideas. Except for me...
Gah. Okay. I guess I might be done now.
I could probably use a bit of Mark's bravado myself.
03/08/2005 (2:22 pm)
Actually Pong was a critical step in educating the masses about the medium. The first coin-op game was Computer Space, and it failed - though it might have succeeded if Pong had actually come first. Computer Space was the superior game in lots of ways - but it didn't meet the needs of its audience. Understanding how to do that WELL - within the limitations given to you (budget, resource, skill set of the team, etc) - is the mark of a skilled game developer. I have met so many wannabes who don't get this - it's all about bigger, better, badder, cooler graphics, "just like game X but with this many more features..."
A friend of mine is fond of an article published by the American Psychology Association about how people who are woefully incompetent at their assigned task tend to vastly overrate their competence and performance. In other words, they are blissfully ignorant of their own incompetence... they suck so bad they have no clue how bad they suck. The problem is that there's a bad feedback loop - the skill to do something and the skill to evaluate performance are highly correllated.
So I guess I attribute this type of quote and attitude that someone is God's Gift to Game Development with an automatic dismissal that said individual is an idiot until proven otherwise... and I think, "This is the caliber of students this school is cranking out?"
But then, I'm not some game-loving kid who would fall for this advertising ploy --- and I might just sign up believing that four years later I'd be transformed into the next Shigeru Miyamoto, and that there'd be HR representatives from all major publishers appearing at my graduation to beg me on hands and knees to come to their company and shower them with my brilliance, because of course the only reason they keep producing clones and sequels is because they don't have ANYBODY there who is capable of original and creative game ideas. Except for me...
Gah. Okay. I guess I might be done now.
I could probably use a bit of Mark's bravado myself.
#6
03/08/2005 (2:24 pm)
No offense, but I am so sick of that supposed Al Gore quote -- he never stated he invented the internet. So stop using it.
#7
As in the ad above, people who tend to make themselves look better than they are often end up just looking - well, stupid.
And as far as pong goes, I can only wish I had the money in the bank that "gay" game pulled in over the years. Somebody PLEASE let me be the next Pong indie.
03/08/2005 (3:12 pm)
No offense again, but in March of 1999, during an interview with Wolf Blitzer, Gore said, 'During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the internet.' The difference Gore supporters try to make of this phrasing is, to me, just a question of semantics. In any case, I have to say that - long after ARPANET was created - Gore did spend some time in the 80's senate to further this type of technology. I do applaud that. The truth is, though, that he (and other candidates) have said some extremely dumb things. I'm sorry, but 'creating' and 'inventing' are just too close.As in the ad above, people who tend to make themselves look better than they are often end up just looking - well, stupid.
And as far as pong goes, I can only wish I had the money in the bank that "gay" game pulled in over the years. Somebody PLEASE let me be the next Pong indie.
#8
03/08/2005 (5:49 pm)
Ads for game design programs at schools are sometimes aimed at the lowest common denominator, which isn't you. One that bugged me around town was a billboard saying, Actually, it is all fun and games. "All" being the disqualifier for that being a truthful statement. Gotta get people hyped about it somehow.
#9
edit: Also, not to be overly critical, but the artwork in the first ad is pretty amateurish. Doesn't exactly instill my confidence.
03/09/2005 (6:46 am)
And the hype is annoying on many levels. The ad that Jay posted is pretty disrespectful, and, yes, cocky and brash. The one that Joshua referred to borders on misinformation, in my opinion. I'm reminded of a good interview with Richard Gray (Levelord), where he reminded enthusiasts that "it's not fun and games,...It's work and games!"edit: Also, not to be overly critical, but the artwork in the first ad is pretty amateurish. Doesn't exactly instill my confidence.
#10
Viva la revolution
- Melv.
03/09/2005 (7:12 am)
Cavemen were crude, not very impressive and low-tech but we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them surviving and doing what they did against all odds.Viva la revolution
- Melv.
#11
I'd be willing to bet that a lot of good game designers have a background in unrelated fields such as history, psychology, or english. It takes a lot more than scripting ability to make a compelling story, an interesting world, realistic characters, or addictive gameplay. You don't need a school to teach you these things, but school can certainly help.
03/09/2005 (7:31 am)
I've always wondered what they teach in these schools. Do the students design board, card, or dice games while at the school? I would think that for a degree in "game design" they better be covering more than just Unreal mods. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of good game designers have a background in unrelated fields such as history, psychology, or english. It takes a lot more than scripting ability to make a compelling story, an interesting world, realistic characters, or addictive gameplay. You don't need a school to teach you these things, but school can certainly help.
#12
-Ajari-.
03/10/2005 (4:09 am)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who found this add annoying and abnoxous. I roll my eyes every time I turn to this page in the back of my Game Developer Magazine. I guess I better get on my knees and kiss this guys boots for inventing the D-pad style controller, Super Mario Bros., Street Fighter II, Internet, and polygon technology-Ajari-.
#13
03/15/2005 (7:15 pm)
If I were an employer, I wouldn't hire anyone with a degree in "Game Design". CS students, maybe... but Game Design? What nonsense.
#15
03/15/2005 (9:47 pm)
Couldn't have said it better Drew. Even those coming out of computer science, still have a bunch of electives to use over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the arts.
#16
03/15/2005 (10:23 pm)
Hey Jay, don't bring QA down to their level! And that comment coming from an advanced programmer, tsk.
#17
The whole concept is absurd, and it follows that any idea which branches from it is also absurd. Hence the ad.
What a waste of... well, everything.
To all you Game Design grads... know that the industry laughs at you. Good luck finding a job as a game tester working alongside highly qualified high school graduates.
03/16/2005 (4:55 pm)
I have a feeling these Game Design students are wealthy spoiled brats who have NO idea what making games is about and just want to major in something that sounds like standing around telling everyone what cool ideas you have for your super neato Halo 2 clone.The whole concept is absurd, and it follows that any idea which branches from it is also absurd. Hence the ad.
What a waste of... well, everything.
To all you Game Design grads... know that the industry laughs at you. Good luck finding a job as a game tester working alongside highly qualified high school graduates.
#18
I can attest to that. I graduated from the Illinois Institute of Art in Schaumburg a little over 2 years ago, although the program offered was animation and not game design. The majority of my classmates fit this description; snobby pretty boys who's parents bought them an Audi to drive the 5 miles to school in. Most of them never even attempted to explore the process of game design through messing with mods or whatever. They all assumed their degree would get them a job. Needless to say, that combined with the competitiveness of the industry has led to the school having extremely low placement rates as of late compared to in the past.
03/16/2005 (6:46 pm)
Quote:I have a feeling these Game Design students are wealthy spoiled brats who have NO idea what making games is about...
I can attest to that. I graduated from the Illinois Institute of Art in Schaumburg a little over 2 years ago, although the program offered was animation and not game design. The majority of my classmates fit this description; snobby pretty boys who's parents bought them an Audi to drive the 5 miles to school in. Most of them never even attempted to explore the process of game design through messing with mods or whatever. They all assumed their degree would get them a job. Needless to say, that combined with the competitiveness of the industry has led to the school having extremely low placement rates as of late compared to in the past.
#19
@Bryan: taking your implication to a logical conclusion, every new degree that is ever brought into the academic environment is absurd, and everything that branches from it is absurd as well. You make an assumption (from a logic perspective) based on a "feeling", and then derive a conclusion ("the whole concept is absurd"), and then use that conclusion to derive a follow on general classification ("any idea which branches from it is also absurd"). You then complete your reasoning by pointing to an add that is on it's face absurd, but has NO bearing on the logic chain you put together.
To anyone that is looking at standing up a team, if you base your decision about a prospective member completely on your "gut feeling" about game design institutions in general, or any academic attendance for that matter, you are making a big mistake. ANYONE that hires or chooses not to hire based on only academic experience is making a big mistake--hell, look at Ben Garney: he was hired as a freshman in college. If he had wound up choosing to go to Full Sail instead of the college he did (I don't know what it was), and GG used your faulty logic, we wouldn't have TSE terrain.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I think the add is one of the stupidest moves the school could have made, and I agree that the attitude of the guy who was quoted can about guarantee he'll never be hired, but those two points have NO bearing on the quality or potential of attendees of that school as a whole, or attendees of all game design schools in general. The first is a (bad) marketer trying to be hip to attract more students with absolutely no concept of the affect on the image of the school itself, and the second is a blatent example of arrogance. Neither in any way would affect the way I interviewed and made a hiring decision about a game design school graduate (other than him of course!).
03/16/2005 (7:21 pm)
I can't think of a more ludicrous set of examples of stereotyping than I've seen in this thread, from the stereotype this particular game design course institute is trying to express, to the even worse example in the last couple of messages.@Bryan: taking your implication to a logical conclusion, every new degree that is ever brought into the academic environment is absurd, and everything that branches from it is absurd as well. You make an assumption (from a logic perspective) based on a "feeling", and then derive a conclusion ("the whole concept is absurd"), and then use that conclusion to derive a follow on general classification ("any idea which branches from it is also absurd"). You then complete your reasoning by pointing to an add that is on it's face absurd, but has NO bearing on the logic chain you put together.
To anyone that is looking at standing up a team, if you base your decision about a prospective member completely on your "gut feeling" about game design institutions in general, or any academic attendance for that matter, you are making a big mistake. ANYONE that hires or chooses not to hire based on only academic experience is making a big mistake--hell, look at Ben Garney: he was hired as a freshman in college. If he had wound up choosing to go to Full Sail instead of the college he did (I don't know what it was), and GG used your faulty logic, we wouldn't have TSE terrain.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I think the add is one of the stupidest moves the school could have made, and I agree that the attitude of the guy who was quoted can about guarantee he'll never be hired, but those two points have NO bearing on the quality or potential of attendees of that school as a whole, or attendees of all game design schools in general. The first is a (bad) marketer trying to be hip to attract more students with absolutely no concept of the affect on the image of the school itself, and the second is a blatent example of arrogance. Neither in any way would affect the way I interviewed and made a hiring decision about a game design school graduate (other than him of course!).
#20
Passed that ... I've always been partial to seeing someone who has made actual games over any other experience. From what I've read that's the way it is throughout the industry for the most part as well. Anyone who really pays attention would know that and would probably only end up at a school like that to satisfy their parents.
Added :
Oh yeah ... also it says without guys like me. So he's not saying without me ... he's just saying without game designers in general. It's really not that bad ... even though it's pretty corny.
03/16/2005 (7:49 pm)
I'm willing to bet the guy never said that. Marketing quotes are often false so wouldn't assume the guy is as big a jerk as the ad makes him out to be. Passed that ... I've always been partial to seeing someone who has made actual games over any other experience. From what I've read that's the way it is throughout the industry for the most part as well. Anyone who really pays attention would know that and would probably only end up at a school like that to satisfy their parents.
Added :
Oh yeah ... also it says without guys like me. So he's not saying without me ... he's just saying without game designers in general. It's really not that bad ... even though it's pretty corny.
Peter Sundling