Questions about TSE before buying
by Leo Yeo · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 03/03/2005 (4:16 pm) · 30 replies
I just went through TSE forum but cannot really find the right answer to my questions.
If possible, can some kind soul please enlighten me on the following?
With regards to the 2 following software:
Torque Game Engine (TGE)
Torque Shader Engine (TSE)
I understand from your web page that TGE is a
complete 3D games development solution by itself.
1) What I would like to know is what relation does item TGE have with TSE.
2) Is TSE a complete 3D games development solution by itself too? Does it require TGE to function?
"TSE : Special Note: If you purchase the early adopter now, you get all updates including the final version for the EA price of only $150 for a savings of $45."
3) I understand that TSE is currently selling for USD
$150.00. The current version of TSE is also not
complete and there is still a lot of development work
to be done. Does the above statement means that if I buy the current version of TSE now for $150, I will get all updates(when they are released from time to time) and the completed final version of TSE for free?
4) Will the completed final version of TSE still cost $150?
If not, how much will the completed final version of TSE cost?
Thank you for your time.
If possible, can some kind soul please enlighten me on the following?
With regards to the 2 following software:
Torque Game Engine (TGE)
Torque Shader Engine (TSE)
I understand from your web page that TGE is a
complete 3D games development solution by itself.
1) What I would like to know is what relation does item TGE have with TSE.
2) Is TSE a complete 3D games development solution by itself too? Does it require TGE to function?
"TSE : Special Note: If you purchase the early adopter now, you get all updates including the final version for the EA price of only $150 for a savings of $45."
3) I understand that TSE is currently selling for USD
$150.00. The current version of TSE is also not
complete and there is still a lot of development work
to be done. Does the above statement means that if I buy the current version of TSE now for $150, I will get all updates(when they are released from time to time) and the completed final version of TSE for free?
4) Will the completed final version of TSE still cost $150?
If not, how much will the completed final version of TSE cost?
Thank you for your time.
#22
03/07/2005 (5:40 pm)
@Leo: TSE will run slow if you have a slow PC, just like any other game engine out there. Best thing to do is find out what was running and what it was running on so that you have a basis for comparing. If the guy was running a P3 800 with a GeForce 2, then it'll probably be kinda slow ;) On my AMD 3400+ with a GeForce 5700, the demo's are pretty sweet... Mileage may vary...
#23
I have a good graphic card (cannot remember the name of it)
but my pc is a rather old pentium iii 700 mhz
the TSE dancing monster demo runs with no visible slow down on my PC.
:)
thats y I do not understand why I read that TSE is slow.
How slow is slow?
what is interesting would be to have maybe more then 1 dancing monster on the TSE demo. maybe have 2 or 3 dancing monster. Then we can see if the speed does slow down or not.
03/07/2005 (10:26 pm)
Hello Ted SouthardI have a good graphic card (cannot remember the name of it)
but my pc is a rather old pentium iii 700 mhz
the TSE dancing monster demo runs with no visible slow down on my PC.
:)
thats y I do not understand why I read that TSE is slow.
How slow is slow?
what is interesting would be to have maybe more then 1 dancing monster on the TSE demo. maybe have 2 or 3 dancing monster. Then we can see if the speed does slow down or not.
#24
Thanks.
-Nick
03/10/2005 (8:57 am)
I need a bit of clarification... I already own the TGE. If I wait for TSE to be officially released, will I have to pay the full $300? Or the difference?Thanks.
-Nick
#25
I read in the other 3D game engine forums that Torque 3d engines are very difficult to learn/program.
Is this true?
What is the learning curve like?
Is it possible for me to see a sample code for a simple 3d object done in TSE?
03/13/2005 (5:26 pm)
I have been doing some research. I did not know there are so many open source and commercial 3D engines out there.I read in the other 3D game engine forums that Torque 3d engines are very difficult to learn/program.
Is this true?
What is the learning curve like?
Is it possible for me to see a sample code for a simple 3d object done in TSE?
#26
The short answer would be no, and the reason is because you don't "do" objects in TSE (unless you're creating them some funky way). You create them in the art programs, and then they get loaded through the editors.
The long answer is that the learning curve is steep. The reason for that is that TGE and TSE are not a bundle of functions to create applications with. They are game engines with 200k lines of code, and because of that, you'll be doing a fair amount of studying that code before you can dig in.
Of course, once you learn that code, you have full control over what you want to do. People have implemented shaders in TGE, made network code changes, and modified TGE in ways it was never really intended when it was first made. The guys at GG have done a great job at generalizing the engine, and in that way, you can mold it into what you want, dependent on your own skill level. If you're a whiz with C++, the learning curve will be shorter than for someone who is begining to learn how to program.
It's the same as using the art tools. Sit two people down in front of Milkshape, and one will have a professional model, and one will not, because it's dependent on skill. Learning it is fully besides the point, because in general, if something is easy to use, it is most likely limited in it's use. And that's not to take away from other engines, because there's a lot of great ones out there, but instead of looking at how hard it will be to learn an engine (if they aren't hard to learn, then you aren't getting a lot of power out of them, IMHO), you should be looking to see if the engine does what you are looking for it to do, and then choose the one which can get you closest to your goals while at the same time allowing you to get the engine the rest of the way.
03/13/2005 (5:38 pm)
Quote:Is it possible for me to see a sample code for a simple 3d object done in TSE?
The short answer would be no, and the reason is because you don't "do" objects in TSE (unless you're creating them some funky way). You create them in the art programs, and then they get loaded through the editors.
The long answer is that the learning curve is steep. The reason for that is that TGE and TSE are not a bundle of functions to create applications with. They are game engines with 200k lines of code, and because of that, you'll be doing a fair amount of studying that code before you can dig in.
Of course, once you learn that code, you have full control over what you want to do. People have implemented shaders in TGE, made network code changes, and modified TGE in ways it was never really intended when it was first made. The guys at GG have done a great job at generalizing the engine, and in that way, you can mold it into what you want, dependent on your own skill level. If you're a whiz with C++, the learning curve will be shorter than for someone who is begining to learn how to program.
It's the same as using the art tools. Sit two people down in front of Milkshape, and one will have a professional model, and one will not, because it's dependent on skill. Learning it is fully besides the point, because in general, if something is easy to use, it is most likely limited in it's use. And that's not to take away from other engines, because there's a lot of great ones out there, but instead of looking at how hard it will be to learn an engine (if they aren't hard to learn, then you aren't getting a lot of power out of them, IMHO), you should be looking to see if the engine does what you are looking for it to do, and then choose the one which can get you closest to your goals while at the same time allowing you to get the engine the rest of the way.
#27
Edit: nevermind :) found it here http://www.garagegames.com/developer/torque/tse/
08/15/2006 (5:50 am)
Anyone have a link to the page that shows development progress for TSE, I had seen one that showed which milestone's were complete and which were still being worked on but I seem to have lost that pageEdit: nevermind :) found it here http://www.garagegames.com/developer/torque/tse/
#28
it's a full blown game, geared toward first person shooters, with the api exposed, and some really decent level editing tools integrated, so that you can make your own games from it without having to reinvent a very well created wheel...
don't let anyone tell you that it will be easy... actually, i don't think anyone will... it will take a lil bit of determination... you won't be able to just get it, drop in your models and start flying... at least not for any real game you won't... but if you look around, if you look past the hype that you see in most game creation tools out there, you'll find that this is gonna be true in 99.9% of the cases... trust me... i've searched long and hard, and have gone through my fair share of these game engines, languages, and creation tools...
there is no free ride... no real shortcut if you wanna make a first rate game... take a second and hear me out on this...
first... you have to determine what you want to do, what kind of game you're gonna be making... not the genre so much, but more whether or not you want it to look 'real'... like something that you'd buy... or like something amateurish, or less than professional looking... no matter how good the gameplay is, people like games that look good...
in Torque's favor, you get all the predesigned terrain, environment, effects, menu setups, sound facilities... all first rate stuff, that will go a long ways towards making your artwork and models look AAA...
i'm not kidding on this aspect, nor am i waving a fanboy flag either... i have no particular alliegiance to any game engine except to the one that can currently give me what i'm looking for, at the least cost, financially, as well as mentally (you'll understand that more when you get midway through your first project)...
take a look at my programmer level artwork in a different game 'engine' / programming languages, and judge for yourself...
in Blitz3D, using an engine i'm writing up... still needs work on the environment part... something already pretty much done in Torque...
same model in TGE... Torques dts format helps em look a lot better, plus i don't need to spend weeks coding up the environment in the scene...
next... you mentioned something about a lot of free, open source game engines... well, pretty much the same things mentioned above apply... plus the fact that you're gonna find that many of em are incomplete, feature wise, documentation wise, foum participation wise, and they too will require a high degree of programming experience to use effectively...
now all this is just one man's opinion... offered only as consideration from someone who has been where you are at, and done all the running around in search of that magic solution...
there is none... all of em are compromises, even Torque...
but from experience, i've found, that what you do get if you decide to go the Torque route, is a first rate, tested, platform from which to develop a first rate game... one that will look good (of course your own expertise enters into the picture here), all other factors being equal...
you will need to get familiar with a few concepts on how the engine works... the basics... the networking (one of the best, and worth understanding how it works)... and the scripting language (easy if you know BASIC, c, c++, java, etc)... the Ken Finney book got me going on these...
then you will have to get your feet wet with the engine code... not so much that you will need to mod the engine yourself, so don't get worried there... you just need to be a lil aware of what's happening behind the scenes, and how the scripting interfaces with it... this you will be on your own as to how you get it... the forum has a wealth of info, though it is widely dispersed... and most of the members here will be glad to chime in and offer their knowledge... find these people, and ignore the rest...
once you get to this point, i think that you'll see that with a lil thought, that you will be able to make more than just a fps, or a car racing game, like the engine and demos are geared towards... and though my shots are all TGE (with the water mod added), TSE is not that different, and you should be able to port over your project with little difficulty...
well, before this becomes a book, i just wanna say good luck... i hope that i've given you a lil help making up your mind... if you're serious about Torque after all this, download the demo, get the Finney book, or look through the forum... and add a few o your models... play around with the scripting...
that'll give you a taste of what it's all about...
good luck...
--Mike
08/27/2006 (8:18 am)
Leo... you read correctly... Torque, whether it be TGE or TSE, will indeed, be difficult to learn... it's not 3DRAD, it's not FPSC (theDarkBASIC people), and it's not a 3D oriented programming language, like Blitz3D...it's a full blown game, geared toward first person shooters, with the api exposed, and some really decent level editing tools integrated, so that you can make your own games from it without having to reinvent a very well created wheel...
don't let anyone tell you that it will be easy... actually, i don't think anyone will... it will take a lil bit of determination... you won't be able to just get it, drop in your models and start flying... at least not for any real game you won't... but if you look around, if you look past the hype that you see in most game creation tools out there, you'll find that this is gonna be true in 99.9% of the cases... trust me... i've searched long and hard, and have gone through my fair share of these game engines, languages, and creation tools...
there is no free ride... no real shortcut if you wanna make a first rate game... take a second and hear me out on this...
first... you have to determine what you want to do, what kind of game you're gonna be making... not the genre so much, but more whether or not you want it to look 'real'... like something that you'd buy... or like something amateurish, or less than professional looking... no matter how good the gameplay is, people like games that look good...
in Torque's favor, you get all the predesigned terrain, environment, effects, menu setups, sound facilities... all first rate stuff, that will go a long ways towards making your artwork and models look AAA...
i'm not kidding on this aspect, nor am i waving a fanboy flag either... i have no particular alliegiance to any game engine except to the one that can currently give me what i'm looking for, at the least cost, financially, as well as mentally (you'll understand that more when you get midway through your first project)...
take a look at my programmer level artwork in a different game 'engine' / programming languages, and judge for yourself...
in Blitz3D, using an engine i'm writing up... still needs work on the environment part... something already pretty much done in Torque...same model in TGE... Torques dts format helps em look a lot better, plus i don't need to spend weeks coding up the environment in the scene...next... you mentioned something about a lot of free, open source game engines... well, pretty much the same things mentioned above apply... plus the fact that you're gonna find that many of em are incomplete, feature wise, documentation wise, foum participation wise, and they too will require a high degree of programming experience to use effectively...
now all this is just one man's opinion... offered only as consideration from someone who has been where you are at, and done all the running around in search of that magic solution...
there is none... all of em are compromises, even Torque...
but from experience, i've found, that what you do get if you decide to go the Torque route, is a first rate, tested, platform from which to develop a first rate game... one that will look good (of course your own expertise enters into the picture here), all other factors being equal...
you will need to get familiar with a few concepts on how the engine works... the basics... the networking (one of the best, and worth understanding how it works)... and the scripting language (easy if you know BASIC, c, c++, java, etc)... the Ken Finney book got me going on these...
then you will have to get your feet wet with the engine code... not so much that you will need to mod the engine yourself, so don't get worried there... you just need to be a lil aware of what's happening behind the scenes, and how the scripting interfaces with it... this you will be on your own as to how you get it... the forum has a wealth of info, though it is widely dispersed... and most of the members here will be glad to chime in and offer their knowledge... find these people, and ignore the rest...
once you get to this point, i think that you'll see that with a lil thought, that you will be able to make more than just a fps, or a car racing game, like the engine and demos are geared towards... and though my shots are all TGE (with the water mod added), TSE is not that different, and you should be able to port over your project with little difficulty...
well, before this becomes a book, i just wanna say good luck... i hope that i've given you a lil help making up your mind... if you're serious about Torque after all this, download the demo, get the Finney book, or look through the forum... and add a few o your models... play around with the scripting...
that'll give you a taste of what it's all about...
good luck...
--Mike
#29
08/27/2006 (9:16 am)
You should buy it before the price goes up next week or so. It's almost finished, TSE is one bitchen engine. I bought mine almost 2 years ago. The quality of the engine has dramaticly increased. Its almost as good as Unreal 3 engine. The difference is that Ureal has AI included with it as well as physics, but if you know math and AI you can make your own AI and physics engine. 
#30
-edit- Heh, forgot the link :P www.garagegames.com/blogs/5030/10647
08/27/2006 (11:34 pm)
Quote:Here is a blog which shows multiple orcs, notice the upper left hand corner of the screenshots to see the FPS
what is interesting would be to have maybe more then 1 dancing monster on the TSE demo. maybe have 2 or 3 dancing monster. Then we can see if the speed does slow down or not.
-edit- Heh, forgot the link :P www.garagegames.com/blogs/5030/10647
Leo Yeo
Is this true?
Will the final TSE have speed improvements?
?
The TSE demo with the dancing monster looks ok to me.