Torque virtual online meetings/trainings
by Joshua Dallman · in General Discussion · 02/02/2005 (11:36 pm) · 28 replies
I've been following the Torque Boot Camp news very closely and I'm very excited about the prospect of driving down to Eugene to attend one in the near future. However, I came across some technology that's VERY cool and it's been bugging me to throw it out and suggest it. It's called Livemeeting (previously Placeware, just sold to Microsoft) and it's more than just a way to display powerpoint presentations. It doesn't look like much when you first see it, but seriously, once you dig in to the features it has, and when you see it in action with virtual conference rooms giving presentations to hundreds of people, it's VERY cool stuff. It's a shame so many people can't make it to IGC, and this would be yet another tool to hook them up and spread the word.
I think it'd be awesome if GG had some regular online presentations (weekly?) through Livemeeting (or a similar software) with topics similar to the break-out sessions at IGC. "Demystifying DTS Exports" for example would be a perfect topic for a first test run. Or a TGE feature overview for newbies interested in purchasing it but who haven't made the dive yet. Livemeeting even allows the presenter to "share" an application window with attendees, so they can show some slides then jump into Maya and TGE and show the whole process LIVE down to every mouse click. There's even VoIP (voice over IP) options, but that gets a little spendier than doing it without audio, though that may change in a future version. Without VoIP it's not an expensive thing to get up and running at all. With VoIP you'd probably have to charge a small sum per session (less than $5?).
I know, you guys aren't busy enough as it is :) And every time I seem to suggest something, you guys seem to one-up me with something you had in the works anyway :) But seeing this program in action, seeing it bring together people from all over the world in a virtual conference room, learning, asking questions, interacting, collaborating... it's just very cool. Microsoft bought it for a reason -- it's good stuff. As indies we need to leverage the tools of the big boys and make them work for us!
Cheers,
Josh
I think it'd be awesome if GG had some regular online presentations (weekly?) through Livemeeting (or a similar software) with topics similar to the break-out sessions at IGC. "Demystifying DTS Exports" for example would be a perfect topic for a first test run. Or a TGE feature overview for newbies interested in purchasing it but who haven't made the dive yet. Livemeeting even allows the presenter to "share" an application window with attendees, so they can show some slides then jump into Maya and TGE and show the whole process LIVE down to every mouse click. There's even VoIP (voice over IP) options, but that gets a little spendier than doing it without audio, though that may change in a future version. Without VoIP it's not an expensive thing to get up and running at all. With VoIP you'd probably have to charge a small sum per session (less than $5?).
I know, you guys aren't busy enough as it is :) And every time I seem to suggest something, you guys seem to one-up me with something you had in the works anyway :) But seeing this program in action, seeing it bring together people from all over the world in a virtual conference room, learning, asking questions, interacting, collaborating... it's just very cool. Microsoft bought it for a reason -- it's good stuff. As indies we need to leverage the tools of the big boys and make them work for us!
Cheers,
Josh
About the author
#2
02/03/2005 (1:13 am)
Ah right, I mis-read it when it said "10 countries or cities." Seems like the best option would be the "35 cents per minute per user" option -- so a one hour presentation would cost $20 per user, which you could probably mark up to at least $30. I know that still seems pricey, but it's a HECK of a lot cheaper than people flying out, getting hotels, taking a cab to the conference center, etc etc. And it saves a recording of the presentation so they can view it as many times as they want later. Gonzo, you should call them at 1.800.695.7900 for more accurate pricing info if this is something you're sincerely interested in.
#3
You read it correctly on the 10 city or country. If you had a company where you were conducting a meeting with 10 different countries and in each country there were 10 people(All in the same conference room), then 100 people could use the product effectivly making it a 100 seat license. Could be 1000 or even 10,000. Cisco for example may want to put on some huge demonstration where they rent out 10 concert venues accross the country in key locations for their shareholders. Say each venue held 5,000 people. Assuming you filled the seats in each you could hold a conference for 50,000 people at once. $750 for that is plenty reasonable. as it adds up to 1.5 cents per viewer.
As for the .35 cents per minute per user here's how it works out for what I had planned...
Class is 2 hours.
2 classes per week.
4 weeks per month
use 40 participants for figuring.
60 minutes * 2 hours * 2 classes * 4 weeks * 40 users * 0.35 cents = $13,440.00 per month
Or in other words, $336.00 per month for each class member just to break even.
Microsoft is being just plain stupid with their pricing on this. It really makes me want to make a collaborative program of my own and just sell it outright for a grand copy. Bet that would piss Microsoft off, lol.
EDIT:
RE: Mail - crap, that's a new Email and I'm not used to checking it yet.
Sorry. Give me a bit
02/03/2005 (2:41 am)
JoshYou read it correctly on the 10 city or country. If you had a company where you were conducting a meeting with 10 different countries and in each country there were 10 people(All in the same conference room), then 100 people could use the product effectivly making it a 100 seat license. Could be 1000 or even 10,000. Cisco for example may want to put on some huge demonstration where they rent out 10 concert venues accross the country in key locations for their shareholders. Say each venue held 5,000 people. Assuming you filled the seats in each you could hold a conference for 50,000 people at once. $750 for that is plenty reasonable. as it adds up to 1.5 cents per viewer.
As for the .35 cents per minute per user here's how it works out for what I had planned...
Class is 2 hours.
2 classes per week.
4 weeks per month
use 40 participants for figuring.
60 minutes * 2 hours * 2 classes * 4 weeks * 40 users * 0.35 cents = $13,440.00 per month
Or in other words, $336.00 per month for each class member just to break even.
Microsoft is being just plain stupid with their pricing on this. It really makes me want to make a collaborative program of my own and just sell it outright for a grand copy. Bet that would piss Microsoft off, lol.
EDIT:
RE: Mail - crap, that's a new Email and I'm not used to checking it yet.
Sorry. Give me a bit
#4
02/03/2005 (3:21 am)
Like I said, you should really give them a call, I know for a fact they have different pricing structures (like where you can buy your own Livemeeting server and use it as much as you want, I think), but I'm really not the one to advise on this topic if you're really interested. I think the pricing makes sense from a "saves money over flying people around" standpoint. 
#5
I know I would definately be interested in your class Gonzo.
02/03/2005 (10:40 am)
Virtual meetings/trainings would be great. Though I love the in person ones as well but as we all know many of us have restrictions to traveling as well as funds.I know I would definately be interested in your class Gonzo.
#6
Teamspeak (It's free, voice quality is Decent)
Free World Dialup - Free VoIP provider (FWD)
Pulver Communicator - AIM, ICQ, MSN, Yahoo, FWD, Skype client.. allows VoIP conferences, can have conference with people using most current VoIP providers.
Visual:
Jybe - Shared Surfing
Torque - yes torque could be extended to provide a virtual meeting room, even to include a virtual slideshow...
TightVNC - Remote desktop sharing / display
RealVNC - Same as above
02/04/2005 (8:06 pm)
Communication: Teamspeak (It's free, voice quality is Decent)
Free World Dialup - Free VoIP provider (FWD)
Pulver Communicator - AIM, ICQ, MSN, Yahoo, FWD, Skype client.. allows VoIP conferences, can have conference with people using most current VoIP providers.
Visual:
Jybe - Shared Surfing
Torque - yes torque could be extended to provide a virtual meeting room, even to include a virtual slideshow...
TightVNC - Remote desktop sharing / display
RealVNC - Same as above
#7
Good God Harold you are a genius. I cannot believe I didn't think of using TGE for this type of thing. And you are absolutely right, if someone were going to create a virtual classroom TGE could certainly do it. And could anything be more fitting? You could start out witha days plan in the classroom and after initial instruction and discussion move from a class setting into a map for demonstration purposes and then back to the classroom again for discussion and more instruction. Students could get their class files when they log in just as they would download a mission or art if they don't have it. Testing students would be a breeze and credible as well. Damn that's a smooth idea. No sooner than I read what you said than my mind exploded with ideas. Wanna help develop it? :-D
Hmmmm, does this qualify as Commercial or Educational use? lol
02/05/2005 (2:21 am)
"yes torque could be extended to provide a virtual meeting room, even to include a virtual slideshow..."Good God Harold you are a genius. I cannot believe I didn't think of using TGE for this type of thing. And you are absolutely right, if someone were going to create a virtual classroom TGE could certainly do it. And could anything be more fitting? You could start out witha days plan in the classroom and after initial instruction and discussion move from a class setting into a map for demonstration purposes and then back to the classroom again for discussion and more instruction. Students could get their class files when they log in just as they would download a mission or art if they don't have it. Testing students would be a breeze and credible as well. Damn that's a smooth idea. No sooner than I read what you said than my mind exploded with ideas. Wanna help develop it? :-D
Hmmmm, does this qualify as Commercial or Educational use? lol
#8
02/05/2005 (2:42 pm)
I thought of the possiblity of using Torque to teach Torque (especially with the solid netcode it has, AND active-X wrapper capability for getting people online easily through a browser), but the show-stopper to the idea for me was application sharing, like if you wanted to go into 3dMax and show an actual export process. The GUI system would also need huge re-writing to make something akin to powerpoint slides, but that's do-able. I'm sure app sharing (really just realtime screenshot sharing of an app window) could be done, but it'd be a LOT of work. Still Gonz, if you're up to it there's a lot of possiblity there. Afterall, ShowToolPro was programmed using Torque...
#9
02/06/2005 (12:37 pm)
You know instead of like realtime shareing of desktop maybe think on a smaller scale and add in video playing / streaming to torque. This way the teacher could premake a video of exporting from 3dsmax and then stream that to the listeners while if theres any questions the teacher could answer them. Even though the thought of real time screen capture and playback would be a awesome idea for torque in this use..
#10
02/12/2005 (9:25 pm)
Just an idea... but with the added flash support with the recent code snippet some ideas might be plausible through flash.
#11
02/12/2005 (9:34 pm)
I've just been looking for the right person to help GG develop and provide more Boot Camps (virtual learning has many many challenges - I believe in its future, but I'm still looking for successful models that are working like face-to-face does).
#12
That way you'd build up a series of video tutorials with an instant FAQ for each one.
02/13/2005 (7:52 pm)
How about releasing a video tutorial at a set time/date and then having the author of it available in an IRC chat room for an hour afterwards to answer questions about itThat way you'd build up a series of video tutorials with an instant FAQ for each one.
#13
I had not considered going as far as the 3DMax idea myself. Since my skills are lacking in that field I figured I would be better off teaching a scripting class for completely new to TGE programmers and intermediate or skilled programmers that were wanting to learn more things like how to better manipulate their environments with solid solutions and how to get the most from what they have. I could definately help bridge the gap between moddeler and scriptor but that's as far as I think would be viable for online classes from me for now. Although doing a flash movie of certain aspects of moddeling would definately be a viable option for future consideration.
I'm considering using Teamspeak for voice com during class but as a secondary tool so that those that cant be on teamspeak can get adaquate attention as well.
I was basically thinking of having the beginner class cover things like how to get started, what the differences between variables are and how to best use each. How to find and understand the places where the engine and scripts interact and what data is being passed. Proper logic and flow, how to debug effectively, getting more for less, and maybe as a class project during the course turn a stock script set into a full CTF game or something like that. Then towards the end of class have a Q&A session or let students submit a problem to be solved or advised on.
At this point I would like to hear some ideas about what kinds of interactions people would like to see in an online environment via classroom interface. Also what times would be good for people and what class lengths would be desired. Hour, hour and a half, two hours etc... All suggestions welcomed.
02/14/2005 (11:18 pm)
JoshI had not considered going as far as the 3DMax idea myself. Since my skills are lacking in that field I figured I would be better off teaching a scripting class for completely new to TGE programmers and intermediate or skilled programmers that were wanting to learn more things like how to better manipulate their environments with solid solutions and how to get the most from what they have. I could definately help bridge the gap between moddeler and scriptor but that's as far as I think would be viable for online classes from me for now. Although doing a flash movie of certain aspects of moddeling would definately be a viable option for future consideration.
I'm considering using Teamspeak for voice com during class but as a secondary tool so that those that cant be on teamspeak can get adaquate attention as well.
I was basically thinking of having the beginner class cover things like how to get started, what the differences between variables are and how to best use each. How to find and understand the places where the engine and scripts interact and what data is being passed. Proper logic and flow, how to debug effectively, getting more for less, and maybe as a class project during the course turn a stock script set into a full CTF game or something like that. Then towards the end of class have a Q&A session or let students submit a problem to be solved or advised on.
At this point I would like to hear some ideas about what kinds of interactions people would like to see in an online environment via classroom interface. Also what times would be good for people and what class lengths would be desired. Hour, hour and a half, two hours etc... All suggestions welcomed.
#14
02/14/2005 (11:38 pm)
Has anyone considered using 2nd Life as a place to host the classes? I've talked to one of their founders and they'd be open to working with us. They teach their scripting language for 2nd life in classes held with 3D avitars in open air and virtual buildings. It might be a place to explore what you like/dislike about teaching in a 3space environment (consider it proto typing) before you try to build classrooms in Torque, etc. 
#15
Here's what I've prototyped in the last 2 months or so:
* persistence - server saves tagged objects to database when everyone has left 'mission', so changes are persisted.
* client-side mission editor, so that everyone can contribute to the evolving virtual place - very important in terms of fostering community
* Interactive objects - I have a model in place providing owner/subscriber of whiteboard-type objects in the torque environment, using input/output redirection I can share any Windows application and have changes streamed as 20x20 pixel blocks over the network (similar to netmeeting or vnc) and can simulate keyboard/mouse activity from remote subscribers by sending windows messages directly to the application window. Each user has a coloured cursor rendered onto the whiteboard which the others can see: important for pointing - they call it the 'WYSIWIS' concept
* Chat as speech-bubbles (I hate the disembodied feeling of chat windows)
* Arbitrary client/server/peer file transfer and automatic patching of .cs and .gui script files when the client logs on
And here's part of the to-do list:
* Voice over IP.. sounds easy when you say it fast :)
* avatar gestures/body language (user editable, not pre-baked as they are now)
* er... 3D models... but I am working on it! redirecting some of my remaining budget in that direction. It all looks a bit daft with orcs and crossbows..
04/13/2005 (8:55 am)
Interesting discussion guys.. in fact what I am currently working on is using Torque as a virtual meeting/classroom environment (actually more long-term that that, I'm looking at it as a more persistent platform for teleworking/virtual campus activity). I know what's required since I'm at the tail-end of a not-completely-successful research project which tried to do it without using a game engine. OK that was dumb!Here's what I've prototyped in the last 2 months or so:
* persistence - server saves tagged objects to database when everyone has left 'mission', so changes are persisted.
* client-side mission editor, so that everyone can contribute to the evolving virtual place - very important in terms of fostering community
* Interactive objects - I have a model in place providing owner/subscriber of whiteboard-type objects in the torque environment, using input/output redirection I can share any Windows application and have changes streamed as 20x20 pixel blocks over the network (similar to netmeeting or vnc) and can simulate keyboard/mouse activity from remote subscribers by sending windows messages directly to the application window. Each user has a coloured cursor rendered onto the whiteboard which the others can see: important for pointing - they call it the 'WYSIWIS' concept
* Chat as speech-bubbles (I hate the disembodied feeling of chat windows)
* Arbitrary client/server/peer file transfer and automatic patching of .cs and .gui script files when the client logs on
And here's part of the to-do list:
* Voice over IP.. sounds easy when you say it fast :)
* avatar gestures/body language (user editable, not pre-baked as they are now)
* er... 3D models... but I am working on it! redirecting some of my remaining budget in that direction. It all looks a bit daft with orcs and crossbows..
#16
"I'm sure app sharing (really just realtime screenshot sharing of an app window) could be done, but it'd be a LOT of work. "
That's one of the main things I have done. It's more than sharing screenshots though, it's much better if subscribers can send keyboard/mouse events to the remote app. I have the latter working as a visual basic demo right now, so it's just a case of turning it into C++ and plugging in the torque network magic. The main effort of screenshot sharing was getting changes turned into little blocks, transmitting over the network, and injected into live textures in the engine.
04/13/2005 (9:04 am)
@ Joshua"I'm sure app sharing (really just realtime screenshot sharing of an app window) could be done, but it'd be a LOT of work. "
That's one of the main things I have done. It's more than sharing screenshots though, it's much better if subscribers can send keyboard/mouse events to the remote app. I have the latter working as a visual basic demo right now, so it's just a case of turning it into C++ and plugging in the torque network magic. The main effort of screenshot sharing was getting changes turned into little blocks, transmitting over the network, and injected into live textures in the engine.
#17
"virtual learning has many many challenges - I believe in its future, but I'm still looking for successful models that are working like face-to-face does"
You're correct, there are a lot of key phenomena in face-to-face interaction that need to be supported for online environments to be effective for collaborative work. I've got lots of material collected/written on the area if you're interested.
It boils down to communication and community:
* communicating speech, body language, gesture, workobject interactions, peripheral awareness
* community - getting to know people socially is crucial. You can't collaborate properly (working or learning) without trust. This is where I believe customisable gestures/avatars are important. This is also why the environment has to be persistent and evolve over time - allowing it to transcend the concept of a virtual 'space' (a la video conferencing) and become a virtual 'place'. Ok I'm an academic :)
04/13/2005 (9:11 am)
@ Jay"virtual learning has many many challenges - I believe in its future, but I'm still looking for successful models that are working like face-to-face does"
You're correct, there are a lot of key phenomena in face-to-face interaction that need to be supported for online environments to be effective for collaborative work. I've got lots of material collected/written on the area if you're interested.
It boils down to communication and community:
* communicating speech, body language, gesture, workobject interactions, peripheral awareness
* community - getting to know people socially is crucial. You can't collaborate properly (working or learning) without trust. This is where I believe customisable gestures/avatars are important. This is also why the environment has to be persistent and evolve over time - allowing it to transcend the concept of a virtual 'space' (a la video conferencing) and become a virtual 'place'. Ok I'm an academic :)
#18
http://www.macromedia.com/software/breeze/
I have used this with eLearning and conferences and it is great. In a virtual classroom setting each person can communicate by video/voice or text chat. As long as each person has a microphone, webcam, web browser and broadband it is as close to a face-to-face environment as I have experienced online. The presenter can use Powerpoint, but can also directly display their desktop. So the presenter can have an app open and be working in it while viewers watch, listen, and provide feedback. Also, the presentations can be easily recorded so that they can be viewed on demand.
04/13/2005 (10:54 am)
I'm surprised Macromedia Breeze has not been mentioned.http://www.macromedia.com/software/breeze/
I have used this with eLearning and conferences and it is great. In a virtual classroom setting each person can communicate by video/voice or text chat. As long as each person has a microphone, webcam, web browser and broadband it is as close to a face-to-face environment as I have experienced online. The presenter can use Powerpoint, but can also directly display their desktop. So the presenter can have an app open and be working in it while viewers watch, listen, and provide feedback. Also, the presentations can be easily recorded so that they can be viewed on demand.
#19
"Has anyone considered using 2nd Life as a place to host the classes? I've talked to one of their founders and they'd be open to working with us. They teach their scripting language for 2nd life in classes held with 3D avitars in open air and virtual buildings. It might be a place to explore what you like/dislike about teaching in a 3space environment (consider it proto typing) before you try to build classrooms in Torque, etc."
Been in SL (Second Life) for some time even if not that active right now and yes their virtual classrooms do work. I was learning SL Scritping language from this guy holding open classes. He had virtual slides (textures) and you can distribute note-cards with class material.... Of course would require people to sign up to SL, but I think a life membership only starts at $9.95 on off payment... If someone was to teach Torque Scritping in SL I would surely consider it.
04/14/2005 (1:49 am)
Jay Moore"Has anyone considered using 2nd Life as a place to host the classes? I've talked to one of their founders and they'd be open to working with us. They teach their scripting language for 2nd life in classes held with 3D avitars in open air and virtual buildings. It might be a place to explore what you like/dislike about teaching in a 3space environment (consider it proto typing) before you try to build classrooms in Torque, etc."
Been in SL (Second Life) for some time even if not that active right now and yes their virtual classrooms do work. I was learning SL Scritping language from this guy holding open classes. He had virtual slides (textures) and you can distribute note-cards with class material.... Of course would require people to sign up to SL, but I think a life membership only starts at $9.95 on off payment... If someone was to teach Torque Scritping in SL I would surely consider it.
#20
04/14/2005 (6:32 am)
I'm almost ready to demo the TGE classroom I've been working on. It blew up into far more than I had initially planned but the end result is fantastic. It's moving in a direction I hadn't intended but that I'm more than pleased with. Be on the lookout for it in the next day or two.
Torque Owner Gonzo T. Clown
Got to find a better solution to make it more affordable. But it is a cool program as you noted.