Plans for RPG starter pack?
by Jacob · in General Discussion · 01/15/2005 (8:26 am) · 46 replies
Question for anyone (especially GG staff): are there any plans for an RPG starter pack? I hope that I didn't miss the answer to this in another post...
About the author
#2
The conversation resource could be integrated, and could the inventory and RPG Dialog resources, but that's only a couple of hours of integration time (if that). To justify the cost of a pack, one usually has to be saving significant time and difficulty. Adding in the existing RPG resources is extremely straight-forward. Manipulating them to act the way you want will take much longer, but then that's time you would have to spend with a RPG pack learnng to manipulate it as well.
I think it would be an extremely difficult pack to approach. Do you make it turn-and-menu-based? Do you make it action-based? Do you try to make it a hybrid? Those questions right there are a major consideration for the event phase. More so than the simple cosmetics. Displaying and hiding interiors depending on visibiity, line-of-sight visibility (which seems to have come and gone with the mid-range Ultimas and their clones).
Seeing as how so many people who want a RPG starting point come from a console tradition, is it necessary for GG to implement a cross-platform video SDK for cut-scenes? Would it be better for them to work on an easily extensible and intuitive camera system (I personally think that the camera system would be a much better place to spend their time and effort since artists could more-quickly prototype using their assets for in-game cut-scenes with an editor-friendly camera versus a programmer friendly camera)? I think that an extensive, easy-to-use camera would be a huge selling point. More so than a sample system that most people will discard because they already have their own "perfect" RPG system laid out.
Actually, to me a camera pack would be a much better pack than a RPG pack, but that's just my take on things. The technical side of the RTS pack is what made me want it more than the desire to make a RTS game. I have no desire to make a RTS game, but the technical aspects of the pack were easily worth the price of admission. And seeing the community rally around such an excellent tool and extend it was an amazing piece of the indie experience to behold.
I don't know whether a RPG pack would garner the same community excitement because people are rather particular about their RPG tastes and system details and I can see a number of "why wasn't feature x in the RPG pack because it's the most important feature in RPG's!" We saw some of that initially when the RTS pack was released and sometimes a topic or two will come up, but I see that as being a hot point for a RPG pack. Part of the reason is that there are so many splinters and gray areas throughout the RPG genre that it would be difficult to create a pack that would give the vast majority an excellent starting point.
I don't know. I'll probably read this later today and wonder what the hell I was thinking, but these are my brainstorming thoughts on the subject. I think that making game packs is an extremely good idea, but making a RPG pack will be an extremely difficult development struggle.
01/15/2005 (10:21 am)
While it's an interesting idea, I would hate fighting the holy war elements of what constitutes a RPG starting point to make a simple pack with an example system. The RTS pack has most of what would be needed for camera work, and the World Domination through Collaboration add-on to the RTS pack addresses a huge number of other potential technical issues. There's always room for improvement such as further interior integration, further camera work, etc.The conversation resource could be integrated, and could the inventory and RPG Dialog resources, but that's only a couple of hours of integration time (if that). To justify the cost of a pack, one usually has to be saving significant time and difficulty. Adding in the existing RPG resources is extremely straight-forward. Manipulating them to act the way you want will take much longer, but then that's time you would have to spend with a RPG pack learnng to manipulate it as well.
I think it would be an extremely difficult pack to approach. Do you make it turn-and-menu-based? Do you make it action-based? Do you try to make it a hybrid? Those questions right there are a major consideration for the event phase. More so than the simple cosmetics. Displaying and hiding interiors depending on visibiity, line-of-sight visibility (which seems to have come and gone with the mid-range Ultimas and their clones).
Seeing as how so many people who want a RPG starting point come from a console tradition, is it necessary for GG to implement a cross-platform video SDK for cut-scenes? Would it be better for them to work on an easily extensible and intuitive camera system (I personally think that the camera system would be a much better place to spend their time and effort since artists could more-quickly prototype using their assets for in-game cut-scenes with an editor-friendly camera versus a programmer friendly camera)? I think that an extensive, easy-to-use camera would be a huge selling point. More so than a sample system that most people will discard because they already have their own "perfect" RPG system laid out.
Actually, to me a camera pack would be a much better pack than a RPG pack, but that's just my take on things. The technical side of the RTS pack is what made me want it more than the desire to make a RTS game. I have no desire to make a RTS game, but the technical aspects of the pack were easily worth the price of admission. And seeing the community rally around such an excellent tool and extend it was an amazing piece of the indie experience to behold.
I don't know whether a RPG pack would garner the same community excitement because people are rather particular about their RPG tastes and system details and I can see a number of "why wasn't feature x in the RPG pack because it's the most important feature in RPG's!" We saw some of that initially when the RTS pack was released and sometimes a topic or two will come up, but I see that as being a hot point for a RPG pack. Part of the reason is that there are so many splinters and gray areas throughout the RPG genre that it would be difficult to create a pack that would give the vast majority an excellent starting point.
I don't know. I'll probably read this later today and wonder what the hell I was thinking, but these are my brainstorming thoughts on the subject. I think that making game packs is an extremely good idea, but making a RPG pack will be an extremely difficult development struggle.
#3
@ David: I appreciate you shining some light on what would be involved in creating an RPG starter pack. Being new to Torque and programming, all the things you mentioned were not really on my mind right away, so it's good to see it from that perspective.
When you speak of the camera, would that be for let's say showing something happening in another area of the map where the player is currently not in? For example moving a switch that opens a door somewhere else could move the camera to the location of that door and show it opening?
As for what I had in mind in an RPG starter pack: a basic character creation system, a basic skills/attributes system, a dialog system, an inventory system, a map/radar system to show the explored areas with a teleport system....any sample GUIs for all the above and I am sure there is more that would be useful to others. I have found everything on the above wish list in the resource area, except for the first two and will probably use what I found in some way. Maybe there aren't too many people out there that are new wanting to make an RPG who would need a starter pack, so creating one may not be worth while for GG. I for one am willing to spend money on anything that will make things easier for me - I don't have any budget limitations, although I will probably not spend a quarter million or so on Ureal. :) I know that over time I will be able to implement all that I need from the resources and as I continue learning I can add my own goodies but this is just a wish that would speed things up for me a bit, if all the above were put into one pack such as the RTS starter was.
Regarding the RTS starter, what benefit if any would it have for designing an RPG?
Thanks again!
01/15/2005 (12:10 pm)
@ Anthony: Yes I have looked in the resources and found many interesting and valuable things - very grateful for that. The question was regarding something official - thanks!@ David: I appreciate you shining some light on what would be involved in creating an RPG starter pack. Being new to Torque and programming, all the things you mentioned were not really on my mind right away, so it's good to see it from that perspective.
When you speak of the camera, would that be for let's say showing something happening in another area of the map where the player is currently not in? For example moving a switch that opens a door somewhere else could move the camera to the location of that door and show it opening?
As for what I had in mind in an RPG starter pack: a basic character creation system, a basic skills/attributes system, a dialog system, an inventory system, a map/radar system to show the explored areas with a teleport system....any sample GUIs for all the above and I am sure there is more that would be useful to others. I have found everything on the above wish list in the resource area, except for the first two and will probably use what I found in some way. Maybe there aren't too many people out there that are new wanting to make an RPG who would need a starter pack, so creating one may not be worth while for GG. I for one am willing to spend money on anything that will make things easier for me - I don't have any budget limitations, although I will probably not spend a quarter million or so on Ureal. :) I know that over time I will be able to implement all that I need from the resources and as I continue learning I can add my own goodies but this is just a wish that would speed things up for me a bit, if all the above were put into one pack such as the RTS starter was.
Regarding the RTS starter, what benefit if any would it have for designing an RPG?
Thanks again!
#4
- The over-head camera system with its controls (zoom in/out, change angle)
- The radar mini-map type thing is already there too
- If your game is point-and-click based with many party members that can be individually controlled, then there is the fact that you can select units (or a group of units) and point-and-click them to attack/move etc.
So it would be a good starting point for some of the requirements you mentioned.
As far as a character creation system, I suggest checking this out: www.realmwarsgame.com/downloads/index.shtml
...The last time I tried it, there was a kind of a character selection/setup thing at the beginning.
So... that leaves "basic skills/attributes system, a dialog system, an inventory system"...
Well, a skills/attribute system should be pretty easy I think, because its just a series of name/value pairs... easily handled by script I imagine... and the GUI editor should be enough to create a simple interface for it (text fields, etc.) Ditto for the inventory and dialogue system...
Of course, something that packaged all of this together would be pretty convenient.
01/15/2005 (2:04 pm)
Quote:Regarding the RTS starter, what benefit if any would it have for designing an RPG?
- The over-head camera system with its controls (zoom in/out, change angle)
- The radar mini-map type thing is already there too
- If your game is point-and-click based with many party members that can be individually controlled, then there is the fact that you can select units (or a group of units) and point-and-click them to attack/move etc.
So it would be a good starting point for some of the requirements you mentioned.
As far as a character creation system, I suggest checking this out: www.realmwarsgame.com/downloads/index.shtml
...The last time I tried it, there was a kind of a character selection/setup thing at the beginning.
So... that leaves "basic skills/attributes system, a dialog system, an inventory system"...
Well, a skills/attribute system should be pretty easy I think, because its just a series of name/value pairs... easily handled by script I imagine... and the GUI editor should be enough to create a simple interface for it (text fields, etc.) Ditto for the inventory and dialogue system...
Of course, something that packaged all of this together would be pretty convenient.
#5
01/15/2005 (2:17 pm)
Realm Wars isn't a resource. Even if you like their character setup feature, you can't have it. The EULA forbids distribution of any code (modified or not) from the Realm Wars game.
#6
For example, there is an inventory system with a GUI at the bottom of the screen, you can press F10 to open the GUI-editor and see how it works.
No harm in that.
01/15/2005 (2:21 pm)
Yes but you can run it and press F10/F11 and see how everything is made.For example, there is an inventory system with a GUI at the bottom of the screen, you can press F10 to open the GUI-editor and see how it works.
No harm in that.
#7
01/15/2005 (2:56 pm)
There will be an RPG starter kit. 
#8
01/15/2005 (4:33 pm)
There could potentially be a starter pack "in the style of" a certain RPG series - but look at how diverse RPGs are NOW. You have the modern Final Fantasy-style RPGs, Bioware's RPGs, Morrowind, the new Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, the old Ultimas, Ultima Underworld, the Everquest-style massively multiplayer RPGs - they just don't have the level of standardization that you have with RTS and FPS games.
#9
I will look at Realm Wars to get an idea for the character creation. And the RTS starter may be good to try as well...
@ Jeff: are you able to reveal any features that it will have and when it might be available?
01/15/2005 (5:00 pm)
Thank you all!I will look at Realm Wars to get an idea for the character creation. And the RTS starter may be good to try as well...
@ Jeff: are you able to reveal any features that it will have and when it might be available?
#10
01/15/2005 (5:08 pm)
Pretty soon I'm going to release a resource on a full journal system, trying to make it very open ended and customizable, would be ideal for an RPG
#11
01/15/2005 (6:12 pm)
I sense Jeff's Inbox growing exponentially.
#12
There's only two types that I can see: 1.) turn-based, 2.) real-time.
01/15/2005 (7:08 pm)
There are different kinds of RPGs, yes, but isnt possible to make a pack that handles each type?There's only two types that I can see: 1.) turn-based, 2.) real-time.
#13
Party vs. Single-Character
First-Person vs. Third Person
Top-Down vs. "full" 3D
Skill Based vs. Level Based
Stat Based vs. Inventory Based
Open-Ended vs. Plot-Driven
There's 2^7 = 128 different types right there. Not including the 'blended' option between extremes (for example, Diablo is a pretty solid mix between stat-based and Inventory-Driven, and you've got the "timed turn" based a la Final Fantasy...)
Not saying that you can't stick a stake in the sand and say, "Well, this is what we're doing as a starter kit," and define a limited subset of the type of game you are building it for - it wouldn't be a complete game construction set a la Neverwinter Nights.
01/16/2005 (7:04 pm)
Turn Based vs. Real TimeParty vs. Single-Character
First-Person vs. Third Person
Top-Down vs. "full" 3D
Skill Based vs. Level Based
Stat Based vs. Inventory Based
Open-Ended vs. Plot-Driven
There's 2^7 = 128 different types right there. Not including the 'blended' option between extremes (for example, Diablo is a pretty solid mix between stat-based and Inventory-Driven, and you've got the "timed turn" based a la Final Fantasy...)
Not saying that you can't stick a stake in the sand and say, "Well, this is what we're doing as a starter kit," and define a limited subset of the type of game you are building it for - it wouldn't be a complete game construction set a la Neverwinter Nights.
#14
It will be a while before we say anything else about it. :)
01/16/2005 (9:49 pm)
Yeah, work is progressing on an RPG Starter Kit. I'd been wrestling with the design for some of the reasons you all mention. Spent a lot of time thinking about it, and have what I think is a very nice set of features spec'd out and a plan for how to do them. The overarching goal is to help people who want to make any kind of RPG get started, giving them a leg-up toward meeting their specific designs. This desire dominates the design of the kit (along with the usual constraints for ease of use and understanding, performance, etc). It's very flexibile and customizable. It will be a while before we say anything else about it. :)
#15
I must say that I'm more excited about T2D than I am about anything else right now, though!
01/16/2005 (9:58 pm)
Very cool, Josh.I must say that I'm more excited about T2D than I am about anything else right now, though!
#16
01/17/2005 (4:40 am)
Awesome David. :) Yeah I love Torque2D, going to be fun when it launches. Can't wait to see what everyone does with it!
#17
I am very interested in an RPG starter pack. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
01/22/2005 (9:39 am)
Josh,I am very interested in an RPG starter pack. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
#18
Nick
01/23/2005 (2:13 pm)
I'd be interested in the RPG pack too. Right now I'm working on the various features for my action/RPG game and I'm looking forward to see what features the pack will include. 2005 release? :)Nick
#19
01/27/2005 (2:07 am)
What about this project www.xeonxstudios.com/. I'm not a prgrammer just an artist but I have wasted many hours reading over the docs. The classes are very inspiring. But what do I know I still believe that despite its becoming increasingly fractionalized Torque would be a perfect rpg engine. 
Associate Anthony Rosenbaum