V12 3D modeller Compatibility Check
by Luc Jordan · in General Discussion · 03/13/2001 (9:10 pm) · 14 replies
I just wanted to know: of Milkshape, Anim8or, Blend, etc -- all of which can I believe output to 3ds format -- how many will be useful modelling tools for the V12 engine?
It's important to me that I be able to model and animate my objects (player characters, vehicles, etc). Maybe not to start off with -- I'm planning on doing something simple first, like a racing sim (yeah, you could do a T2 mod, but the eventual goal is a full game) -- but eventually I will need to animate many of my objects, and being a poor boy, 3D Studio Max isn't an option. :P
It's important to me that I be able to model and animate my objects (player characters, vehicles, etc). Maybe not to start off with -- I'm planning on doing something simple first, like a racing sim (yeah, you could do a T2 mod, but the eventual goal is a full game) -- but eventually I will need to animate many of my objects, and being a poor boy, 3D Studio Max isn't an option. :P
About the author
#2
03/13/2001 (9:25 pm)
There is only the Max exporter right now, but a top priority will be to get something else going, Milkshape, Blender. Whatever is appropriate, and cheap.
#3
03/13/2001 (9:35 pm)
By 3DS Max, do you mean Character Studio as well? Does it require Biped for the skeleton, and Physique to deform it, or will it work with Max Native bones and its skin modifier? This would make it much more accessable I think :)
#4
SCORE!
I'll start modelling now, in Blend probably. (Since it is WAAAAAAY more advanced than Anim8or). It'll mean I have to learn Blend; I already use Anim8or for Thief 2, but it is obviously not up to the task of creating higher-poly models, and I think that Blend is.
Please let us know when you start working on the exporters/plugins, and for what programs! I will model everything in Blend, but I can't start any sort of animation until I'm sure it won't be wasted work.
03/13/2001 (9:46 pm)
Quote:There is only the Max exporter right now, but a top priority will be to get something else going, Milkshape, Blender. Whatever is appropriate, and cheap.
SCORE!
I'll start modelling now, in Blend probably. (Since it is WAAAAAAY more advanced than Anim8or). It'll mean I have to learn Blend; I already use Anim8or for Thief 2, but it is obviously not up to the task of creating higher-poly models, and I think that Blend is.
Please let us know when you start working on the exporters/plugins, and for what programs! I will model everything in Blend, but I can't start any sort of animation until I'm sure it won't be wasted work.
#5
--Rick
03/13/2001 (9:56 pm)
Also remember that we are willing to trade off back end royalty points to teams that want to contribute to the official source code/technology base. That includes things like creating a V12 model exporter for MilkShape or OpenFX, etc..--Rick
#6
I have heard about how well the Tribes 2 engine handles interior spaces. That's no surprise to me considering how even Tribes 1 handled interiors at very high speed.
However -- and I know it's a new engine; this is just as an analogy -- you know those big bases in Tribes 1? When I would make my own maps, I could put 8 Broadside bases in close proximity -- and bang, my fps went down to around 15. I know for a fact it wasn't the polys; the Broadside bases are very low-poly, and I'm sure I never hit 1200 polys on screen at once.
So I'm wondering -- why did that happen/is it relevant to the V12 engine? And assuming the exterior of the building is suitably low-poly, (and if you only use 3 or 4 different models, repeated over and over), would a limited 'city' area be feasible using the V12 engine?
To put it another way -- if I wanted to make something like Gotham, how close could I get?
03/13/2001 (10:10 pm)
I have another question that really isn't on-topic for this thread, but I would be embarrassed in starting another one.I have heard about how well the Tribes 2 engine handles interior spaces. That's no surprise to me considering how even Tribes 1 handled interiors at very high speed.
However -- and I know it's a new engine; this is just as an analogy -- you know those big bases in Tribes 1? When I would make my own maps, I could put 8 Broadside bases in close proximity -- and bang, my fps went down to around 15. I know for a fact it wasn't the polys; the Broadside bases are very low-poly, and I'm sure I never hit 1200 polys on screen at once.
So I'm wondering -- why did that happen/is it relevant to the V12 engine? And assuming the exterior of the building is suitably low-poly, (and if you only use 3 or 4 different models, repeated over and over), would a limited 'city' area be feasible using the V12 engine?
To put it another way -- if I wanted to make something like Gotham, how close could I get?
#7
Can you control the orientation of the water? For example, I've had some interesting ideas about a map where the terrain consists of two sheets of water about 50m apart, at right angles to the ground, with air in between; no land, and all bases are in the walls of water somewhere. It's a silly idea, but is it possible?
In Tribes, it was possible to create 'cavern' maps by using two terrain objects, one inverted and offset. Can we implement multiple terrain objects in Tribes 2?
Could we control the tilt of those terrain objects? (I don't think I need to mention the possibilities with that one. Imagine a map with 2 terrain objects, both with steep ridges and valleys . . . the whole map like the interior of an endless canyon.
None of this is really relevant; I'm just trying to get a feel for engine requirements before I decide what type of project my friends and I will work on.
03/14/2001 (9:08 am)
More questions on the limits of the V12 engine (ok, given that it is limitless since we have the source).Can you control the orientation of the water? For example, I've had some interesting ideas about a map where the terrain consists of two sheets of water about 50m apart, at right angles to the ground, with air in between; no land, and all bases are in the walls of water somewhere. It's a silly idea, but is it possible?
In Tribes, it was possible to create 'cavern' maps by using two terrain objects, one inverted and offset. Can we implement multiple terrain objects in Tribes 2?
Could we control the tilt of those terrain objects? (I don't think I need to mention the possibilities with that one. Imagine a map with 2 terrain objects, both with steep ridges and valleys . . . the whole map like the interior of an endless canyon.
None of this is really relevant; I'm just trying to get a feel for engine requirements before I decide what type of project my friends and I will work on.
#8
What are the limits on object complexity? I am especially thinking about buildings here; from Thief level design I got used to creating enormously detailed interiors. But I want to know what effects that will have, other than the basic 'if you can see the polys it will slow you down' part; I'm wondering about lag/frame rate drops that might be caused by a highly detailed building -- even if you're outside.
I'm not used to building buildings for this type of a game; all of my experience is in portal-based engines. (well, I made cool Tribes maps, but so does my little brother).
03/14/2001 (9:18 am)
More questions . . .What are the limits on object complexity? I am especially thinking about buildings here; from Thief level design I got used to creating enormously detailed interiors. But I want to know what effects that will have, other than the basic 'if you can see the polys it will slow you down' part; I'm wondering about lag/frame rate drops that might be caused by a highly detailed building -- even if you're outside.
I'm not used to building buildings for this type of a game; all of my experience is in portal-based engines. (well, I made cool Tribes maps, but so does my little brother).
#9
Because just from examining the Tribes 2 models, I'm going to make a guess that you're not using a single mesh :o But it would be nice to know before I make something r33t and maybe learn I did it in a way that makes it incompatible with the specifications for v12.
03/14/2001 (9:46 am)
Even more questions! I'm waiting for a phone call, so I'm messing with Milkshape, and I'm wondering about something. When building a model, would it be wise to make the player model as a single mesh or as a group of objects/poly groups -- ie, hands, feet, thigh, head, torso?Because just from examining the Tribes 2 models, I'm going to make a guess that you're not using a single mesh :o But it would be nice to know before I make something r33t and maybe learn I did it in a way that makes it incompatible with the specifications for v12.
#10
My question is -- once again, in pushing the limits here -- what are the physics for these platforms? If I created a large moving platform, and it was moving left to right, and I ran across it, how accurately will the physics work? ie, will my heading be unchanged, or will a more realistic physical effect be noted? What about if a moving platform collides with a player? If the platform moves fast enough, could the player be knocked backwards?
If I created a moving platform that was irregularly shaped, for example, a round one or one with a pole in the middle, would I get the same accurate collision detection that I would get with a static object, such as a building or the terrain?
How detailed could I make my moving platforms? For example, what about a subway train? :-)
I realize I'm being a pain in the ass, yes. BUT I MUST KNOW I SHALL BECOME R33T V12 LICENSEE MUHAHAHAHAAA!!
03/14/2001 (10:15 am)
I felt guilty about posting again, but the edit function still isn't working. :-) I wanted to know about moving platform physics in Tribes 2. Tribes 1 made a kind of a silly mistake with moving platforms; they should be one of the few lag-free parts of the game. Tribes 2 I heard corrected this oversight.My question is -- once again, in pushing the limits here -- what are the physics for these platforms? If I created a large moving platform, and it was moving left to right, and I ran across it, how accurately will the physics work? ie, will my heading be unchanged, or will a more realistic physical effect be noted? What about if a moving platform collides with a player? If the platform moves fast enough, could the player be knocked backwards?
If I created a moving platform that was irregularly shaped, for example, a round one or one with a pole in the middle, would I get the same accurate collision detection that I would get with a static object, such as a building or the terrain?
How detailed could I make my moving platforms? For example, what about a subway train? :-)
I realize I'm being a pain in the ass, yes. BUT I MUST KNOW I SHALL BECOME R33T V12 LICENSEE MUHAHAHAHAAA!!
#11
It's been a while since I played with the exporter, but I don't know of any reason why Max's native bone system couldn't be used. Dynamix was using Character Studio at one point (still could be), and there may be some ties to it in the exporter. Since the V12 release includes the exporter source code, if there are any dependencies we can take them out.
03/14/2001 (10:35 am)
Getting this thread back on track... :)It's been a while since I played with the exporter, but I don't know of any reason why Max's native bone system couldn't be used. Dynamix was using Character Studio at one point (still could be), and there may be some ties to it in the exporter. Since the V12 release includes the exporter source code, if there are any dependencies we can take them out.
#12
So many engines rely on Character Studio to animate...it good to see that the V12 can support Max Native bones. I just hope it doesn't need PHysique as well...I ran into that problem on another engine....
03/14/2001 (2:08 pm)
Thanks! I thought my question got lost in the thread :)So many engines rely on Character Studio to animate...it good to see that the V12 can support Max Native bones. I just hope it doesn't need PHysique as well...I ran into that problem on another engine....
#13
According to some emails i bounced back and forth to Jon Lanz a couple months ago, Tribes 2 uses segmented character models in order to decrease the memory imprint of the animations and also allow them to be blended. These are features that are commonly achieved with skeletal animation.
The V12 tech page says that the engine supports "Mesh vertex deformation animation and Multi-bone mesh skeletal animation." Does this mean that character models can be created with a single mesh instead of segmented objects for each body part? If so, is this a V12-specific feature or is it present in the Tribes 2 engine as well? Thanks for any help,
Lucas Hardi
03/18/2001 (9:48 pm)
Tim,According to some emails i bounced back and forth to Jon Lanz a couple months ago, Tribes 2 uses segmented character models in order to decrease the memory imprint of the animations and also allow them to be blended. These are features that are commonly achieved with skeletal animation.
The V12 tech page says that the engine supports "Mesh vertex deformation animation and Multi-bone mesh skeletal animation." Does this mean that character models can be created with a single mesh instead of segmented objects for each body part? If so, is this a V12-specific feature or is it present in the Tribes 2 engine as well? Thanks for any help,
Lucas Hardi
#14
--Rick
03/19/2001 (7:10 am)
The engine supports both, Tribes 2 just uses segmented character models. --Rick
Torque 3D Owner Brian Smith
I'm hoping to move a project (just started coding) over to V12 as soon as it's available. I'll wouldn't mind writing an exporter or two while getting acquainted with the codebase.
-Brian