How soon is 'soon'? (Torque Docs)
by Skitchy · in Torque Game Engine · 11/16/2004 (2:32 am) · 22 replies
The 'Coming Soon' has been hanging over the Torque documentation for quite some time. Is there any chance of an estimated release?
BTW, I'm talking about the docs in the shop, not the ones you can get online already.
Edit : Here - http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=home&page=news
BTW, I'm talking about the docs in the shop, not the ones you can get online already.
Edit : Here - http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=home&page=news
About the author
#4
Also, I think it's a crock of crap SDK owners are having to pay for decent documentation on a product we already payed for. Will I be buying it? Of course. Will I like this fact? No - I think GG should really focus efforts stronger on documentation than has been done in the past. Yes, there are tons of resources here, but the community is doing 60-70% of GG's work when it comes to documentation it seems.
11/16/2004 (11:36 pm)
Will the documents be focusing on the engine and TorqueScript, or merely the engine? I find the documentation lacking 'everything' when it comes to TorqueScript. I ran through 3D Game Programming All in One, and now as I start to work on my own game, trying to develop as much in TorqueScript as possible, I find it extremely difficult.Also, I think it's a crock of crap SDK owners are having to pay for decent documentation on a product we already payed for. Will I be buying it? Of course. Will I like this fact? No - I think GG should really focus efforts stronger on documentation than has been done in the past. Yes, there are tons of resources here, but the community is doing 60-70% of GG's work when it comes to documentation it seems.
#5
We are doing most of the docs internally or paying for them, so your statement that the community is doing 70% of our work is untrue. As you know, you get docs when you buy the engine, they are just in on-line format. If you want them in printed format, we have to charge.
When you say stronger docs, what do you mean? Are you looking for tutorials, how-to's, or what? There are over 1600 pages of documentation, so it is difficult for us when you say there are no docs. Did you see this?
www.garagegames.com/docs/torque/
11/17/2004 (7:40 am)
@Michael:We are doing most of the docs internally or paying for them, so your statement that the community is doing 70% of our work is untrue. As you know, you get docs when you buy the engine, they are just in on-line format. If you want them in printed format, we have to charge.
When you say stronger docs, what do you mean? Are you looking for tutorials, how-to's, or what? There are over 1600 pages of documentation, so it is difficult for us when you say there are no docs. Did you see this?
www.garagegames.com/docs/torque/
#6
And listen, I'm in the same boat as you. I'm also learning Torque Script and agreed it not all that straight forward without more documentation- but the guys here are being pulled in many different directions with all our wants and needs. They post to forums at weekends and out of work hours. So I think their work transcends the fire and forget approach to selling. They genuinely believe in independent games and what they are doing here - so please lets cut them some slack. I'm sure they will come up with the goods soon.
Regards,
KC
11/17/2004 (1:01 pm)
@Michael. I think the guys at GG are trying to the best they can. In an ideal world more documentation would exist but this engine was a commercial game long before it was a commercial product.And listen, I'm in the same boat as you. I'm also learning Torque Script and agreed it not all that straight forward without more documentation- but the guys here are being pulled in many different directions with all our wants and needs. They post to forums at weekends and out of work hours. So I think their work transcends the fire and forget approach to selling. They genuinely believe in independent games and what they are doing here - so please lets cut them some slack. I'm sure they will come up with the goods soon.
Regards,
KC
#7
and i have tried many demos,even bought
other reasonably priced engines but this rocks.
the license is amazingly cheap
and if you make a list of gotta haves like this
TGE $100
TSE $150
character pack
combo pack
tank pack
its the best,cheapest deal your ever gonna get.
see how much the A5 GS is gonna cost you.
plus you get the updated sdk compilations as they come out.
i must say that scouting the forums and visiting the online
docs is a pain,and im all up for paying a few bucks for a
GG user manual which spells it all out word for word.
11/17/2004 (1:12 pm)
At the end of the day torque is the bestand i have tried many demos,even bought
other reasonably priced engines but this rocks.
the license is amazingly cheap
and if you make a list of gotta haves like this
TGE $100
TSE $150
character pack
combo pack
tank pack
its the best,cheapest deal your ever gonna get.
see how much the A5 GS is gonna cost you.
plus you get the updated sdk compilations as they come out.
i must say that scouting the forums and visiting the online
docs is a pain,and im all up for paying a few bucks for a
GG user manual which spells it all out word for word.
#8
11/17/2004 (1:21 pm)
He said he thought the documentation was lacking. (He obviously didn't knew it existed, though - so it's pretty false) but no one said that Torque was not a good deal, and no one compares it to A5 GS (which IS a ripoff).
#9
1. Search torque resources.
2. Search torque forums.
3. Search my self-email collection about torque stuff
4. Pick through GG documentation
5. Post on forums
Sometimes it is hard to find things in the documentation. This has improved over the last year, I must say, and I appreciate it. It's hard for me to put a finger on why it is hard to find things as well. I'll try to remember to think about it next time I'm having trouble finding something.
Torque is big. That's why it has to have lots of documentation. Finding some way to organize it better than it is already is definitely a challenge. Remember that, folks. And I don't work for GG either.
11/17/2004 (2:12 pm)
I think a lot of the fuss about "no documentation" would be better worded as "complex organization for documentation" I'm starting to think that in some areas there's too much documentation. In some areas, it is a little lacking. Overall, the documentation is sufficient to get anyone going as long as they're patient enough and have good searching ability (searching without the search bar, that is). When I get stuck on something, or want to see if torque supports xyz feature, this is my order (usually):1. Search torque resources.
2. Search torque forums.
3. Search my self-email collection about torque stuff
4. Pick through GG documentation
5. Post on forums
Sometimes it is hard to find things in the documentation. This has improved over the last year, I must say, and I appreciate it. It's hard for me to put a finger on why it is hard to find things as well. I'll try to remember to think about it next time I'm having trouble finding something.
Torque is big. That's why it has to have lots of documentation. Finding some way to organize it better than it is already is definitely a challenge. Remember that, folks. And I don't work for GG either.
#11
11/17/2004 (4:39 pm)
Jeff: Actually running doxygen yields a hefty ~4000 page pdf reference manual (at least on my machine based on TGE 1.3). That is bigger than the lithtec 1.2 reference doc i saw a whiles back. :D
#12
Just to point that out to the GG team, not everyone knows what this stuff is. I remember seeing a doxygen section in the documentation now that I look back on it, but what is this set of stuff in the SDK? Looks like just a few images, and a cascading stylesheet to me.
11/17/2004 (9:29 pm)
I see doxygen in the docs folder of the SDK, but what is it? I guess I need to go googling this and find out what it is and if it will help point me in the right direction.Just to point that out to the GG team, not everyone knows what this stuff is. I remember seeing a doxygen section in the documentation now that I look back on it, but what is this set of stuff in the SDK? Looks like just a few images, and a cascading stylesheet to me.
#14
Thanks again!
11/17/2004 (9:55 pm)
Thanks KC, that was really easy and I am running through it right now. I'm glad I caught this topic because I have never heard of doxygen before, and had no clue what it was when I saw it. With only having the SDK for 2 days you can imagine all the stuff I imagined it could be (all of which were wrong).Thanks again!
#15
Regarding the existence of documentation, please read this FAQ. Torque is now easily one of the best documented engines on the planet, no lie. Lack of documentation used to be a valid criticism, but after years of effort in this area and a very intense focus on it over the past year especially, it no longer applies.
Still, we're striving to add even more documentation, and we'll continue to do so, along with the awesome community here. I do agree with some comments here that it can be hard to find what you're looking for sometimes, but to an extent, that's a consequence of having SO MUCH documentation now.
Regarding having for-pay documentation, let's be clear... you are not required, at all, to buy the printed documentation mentioned on the site. There is nothing in that printed documentation which you won't find online. The printed docs are just that... a printed version of the online documentation. Many, many people have asked that we provide the online documentation in a printed format, so we'll be doing that. We obviously have to charge for the printed version, because it just plain costs money to do the printing (not to mention the layout, formatting, etc).
Thanks to all for the feedback on the docs here.
11/18/2004 (1:10 am)
Regarding the release date for printed docs, we hate to make promises on exact dates, but it's really true now that they're coming SOON. :)Regarding the existence of documentation, please read this FAQ. Torque is now easily one of the best documented engines on the planet, no lie. Lack of documentation used to be a valid criticism, but after years of effort in this area and a very intense focus on it over the past year especially, it no longer applies.
Still, we're striving to add even more documentation, and we'll continue to do so, along with the awesome community here. I do agree with some comments here that it can be hard to find what you're looking for sometimes, but to an extent, that's a consequence of having SO MUCH documentation now.
Regarding having for-pay documentation, let's be clear... you are not required, at all, to buy the printed documentation mentioned on the site. There is nothing in that printed documentation which you won't find online. The printed docs are just that... a printed version of the online documentation. Many, many people have asked that we provide the online documentation in a printed format, so we'll be doing that. We obviously have to charge for the printed version, because it just plain costs money to do the printing (not to mention the layout, formatting, etc).
Thanks to all for the feedback on the docs here.
#16
Even more so with the overhaul thats planned in the next couple of versions.
I know it's not a question. I look forward to seeing how you guys are gonna co it.
11/18/2004 (1:22 am)
I'm curious about how your going to be doing this at all. Theres so many changes to the engine it seems it would go out of date quick.Even more so with the overhaul thats planned in the next couple of versions.
I know it's not a question. I look forward to seeing how you guys are gonna co it.
#17
- Adding new weapons to the player with picup and use
- "How-to" add water (and actually make it look like water) expanding it as required
- Changing the AI script to something useful like shooting back
Yes there are tons of resources here and example codes. Most of which is written at a higher level then most noob's understand.
Add this, put this in your inventory.cs, add this gui and make it execute.
to what? where? how?
I've been watching Torque for a year now and purchased it four weeks ago. Learned alot. But now that its time to actually make something useful, not gonna happen. Weeks for reading , trying example codes, etc. Still notta. as I read the forums, many noob's are having the same issues.
Most postings with "basic" information requests are usually answered by requesting you go read the docs (which the answer isn't there , at least at a lower level of understanding) or to search the forums (again , not written for basic understanding)
After three weeks of cramming tons of info and testing sample codes, I've hung it up until something like Gonzo's .Plan comes out. I don't expect seasoned coders to explain things at a lower level , but I do expect (at the least) the documentation with it explains the basic concept(s) and "how-to's" of the examples that comes with it.
BTW: Your .command files with the MAC version are incorrect and error out. No big deal , just pop a terminal shell and do it manually.
11/19/2004 (2:54 pm)
It would be nice if the new doc's had a "down and dirty basic fps creation" section. Jsut the basics Like...- Adding new weapons to the player with picup and use
- "How-to" add water (and actually make it look like water) expanding it as required
- Changing the AI script to something useful like shooting back
Yes there are tons of resources here and example codes. Most of which is written at a higher level then most noob's understand.
Add this, put this in your inventory.cs, add this gui and make it execute.
to what? where? how?
I've been watching Torque for a year now and purchased it four weeks ago. Learned alot. But now that its time to actually make something useful, not gonna happen. Weeks for reading , trying example codes, etc. Still notta. as I read the forums, many noob's are having the same issues.
Most postings with "basic" information requests are usually answered by requesting you go read the docs (which the answer isn't there , at least at a lower level of understanding) or to search the forums (again , not written for basic understanding)
After three weeks of cramming tons of info and testing sample codes, I've hung it up until something like Gonzo's .Plan comes out. I don't expect seasoned coders to explain things at a lower level , but I do expect (at the least) the documentation with it explains the basic concept(s) and "how-to's" of the examples that comes with it.
BTW: Your .command files with the MAC version are incorrect and error out. No big deal , just pop a terminal shell and do it manually.
#18
11/19/2004 (3:17 pm)
Kenneth Finney's book collects things all in one place. Otherwise, the minApps are an excellent place to start. I was thinking of creating basically what the minApps are, but then someone else did it. I haven't thought of the mass organization on the scale of Gonzo, though. I'm glad that someone else has.
#19
IMHO: he would have hit a "home run" with the book if he focused on what came with Torque and modified from there rather than creating and entirely new file structure and new game.
11/19/2004 (3:31 pm)
Got the book, very good , but the custom setups he does and the WindoZe .exe (which when replaced with the MAC booter will not work) limites you to just concept text. As I recall I saw mention of integrating Windows dll calls also. This cross-platform app looks more like a straight line. IMHO: he would have hit a "home run" with the book if he focused on what came with Torque and modified from there rather than creating and entirely new file structure and new game.
#20
11/19/2004 (3:45 pm)
That's one of the problems with attempting to write an "all inclusive" text like 3DGPAiO. Especially without a DIF alternative beyond Windows. I don't remember any DLL integration, though. The code changes that I've made are made both on my Mac and my Tablet PC. I used the book's examples on my Tablet, though, so I didn't notice any platform specific problems. I use my Mac as my core development platform, though. It houses my CVS server, code checkout, and the projects that I'm testing.
Associate Ben Garney