Appreciation for being an indie
by Jay Barnson · in General Discussion · 11/11/2004 (6:13 am) · 28 replies
I worked really psycho hours (>75 hours a week) for only a few weeks when I was at SingleTrac. And that wasn't mandatory. It was a self-imposed crunch.
At Acclaim, I grew very pissed off at how management dictated 60-hour minimum workweeks for MONTHS at a time for one team.
But I saw this on slashdot this morning:
www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
Thank goodness I'm an indie! Yeah, it gets psycho working a full-time job AND making games on the side, but at least I get to dictate the hours.
Sweatshops: They aren't just for Asia anymore. You guys who are working hard to try and get a job with a major game publisher / studio... good luck, but be careful. It ain't the promised land (though I would recommend the experience of working with professionals in the industry... it's extremely valuable IF you can avoid the extremes of this kind of nonsense).
At Acclaim, I grew very pissed off at how management dictated 60-hour minimum workweeks for MONTHS at a time for one team.
But I saw this on slashdot this morning:
www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
Thank goodness I'm an indie! Yeah, it gets psycho working a full-time job AND making games on the side, but at least I get to dictate the hours.
Sweatshops: They aren't just for Asia anymore. You guys who are working hard to try and get a job with a major game publisher / studio... good luck, but be careful. It ain't the promised land (though I would recommend the experience of working with professionals in the industry... it's extremely valuable IF you can avoid the extremes of this kind of nonsense).
About the author
Jay has been a mainstream and indie game developer for a... uh, long time. His professional start came in 1994 developing titles for the then-unknown and upcoming Sony Playstation. He runs Rampant Games and blogs at Tales of the Rampant Coyote.
#2
11/11/2004 (8:30 am)
To be fair, it's not just the game development companies, it's the broader category of software development in general that sets those kinds of crazy hours, especially in the months leading up to a new version release. 
#4
However, I have never seen it to the extreme described here... either in or out of the games industry.
11/11/2004 (8:37 am)
True enough - it seems to be more of a problem with the large, stable companies making plenty of money than smaller software houses. The difference is that with the smaller companies you put in the crazy hours because you want the company to succeed (and you probably have a stake in it's success). At the larger companies you do it because you are ordered to do so. And the psycho hours means you don't have time to look for a new job...However, I have never seen it to the extreme described here... either in or out of the games industry.
#5
To a large degree I imagine the big companies do it because they can. There are lots of people competing for those jobs to break into the industry - if one person burns out or becomes disgruntled and quits, there's another waiting to put in those 80 hour weeks. Sadly, it is a supply/demand problem.
Now, just because they can do it does not excuse the fact that they are. It would not be surprising to see a few unions pop up here and there to try to combat this.
I work in the software industry, but have only worked for small companies. As Jay mentioned, the extra hours are part of it (from time to time), but you do that willingly when you have a financial and personal stake in the welfare of the company. Even then, I've never had sustained periods (more than a few weeks, really) of insane hours, and have always been compensated for them in extra time off.
Better to be an indie, for sure.
11/11/2004 (9:00 am)
That was pretty heavy. To a large degree I imagine the big companies do it because they can. There are lots of people competing for those jobs to break into the industry - if one person burns out or becomes disgruntled and quits, there's another waiting to put in those 80 hour weeks. Sadly, it is a supply/demand problem.
Now, just because they can do it does not excuse the fact that they are. It would not be surprising to see a few unions pop up here and there to try to combat this.
I work in the software industry, but have only worked for small companies. As Jay mentioned, the extra hours are part of it (from time to time), but you do that willingly when you have a financial and personal stake in the welfare of the company. Even then, I've never had sustained periods (more than a few weeks, really) of insane hours, and have always been compensated for them in extra time off.
Better to be an indie, for sure.
#6
--Rick
11/11/2004 (9:23 am)
I think the big difference is when you decide to put in a ton of hours as an indie you are investing in YOURSELF. If you are working for Mega Corp and are forced/coerced to put in long hours there is no benefit to you at all ...well maybe you get to keep your job until the end of the project when they lay off the entire team (oh well you needed the rest anyway).--Rick
#7
11/11/2004 (9:23 am)
Hands up who wants to work for EA?
#8
11/11/2004 (4:35 pm)
Quote:Sadly, it is a supply/demand problem.Yup, and if enough people are unwilling to work under those horrid conditions, or organize into labor unions, or whatever, well, there's this place called India where people aren't such prudes about it.
#9
11/11/2004 (7:40 pm)
I wish I hadn't read that article ... I feel I'm going to be in a bad mood for a few hours now.
#10
11/11/2004 (8:36 pm)
I wonder if there are even any established unions for programmers or game programmers ive never been in a union because i have only worked retail but i believe that any job that requires skilled workers should have a union to fight for there workers for better conditions and better pay so stuff like this doesnt happen
#11
Now I'm lucky if I really work more then 50 hours a week.
11/11/2004 (9:03 pm)
Iv'e been lucky. The first real job I had as a programmer was with a guy that was never around. I had deadlines, and god knows that times got rough, but for the most part it was pretty laid back.Now I'm lucky if I really work more then 50 hours a week.
#12
Slacker! :-)
I had a job where the 'boss' was never around, I dont think he liked me calling him lord Lucan or the Scarlet Pimernell, and when I got him the Dilbert mouse mat "Avoid criticism, do nothing"...... well, lets just say I was sacked shortley after.
11/12/2004 (2:33 am)
Quote:Now I'm lucky if I really work more then 50 hours a week.
Slacker! :-)
I had a job where the 'boss' was never around, I dont think he liked me calling him lord Lucan or the Scarlet Pimernell, and when I got him the Dilbert mouse mat "Avoid criticism, do nothing"...... well, lets just say I was sacked shortley after.
#13
No perma crunches. No mandatory overtime for the salaried folks, and the QA team don't have to do any (they get financial incentives to do so, 'though ;))
And yes, this is not a small studio anymore (it was less than a year ago, but I wasn't there back then), and it's still growing.
All the industry doesn't work the way that certain EA (and others) units function, whether it's AAA, first/second or third party, or even indies (a lot of indies put in very, very long hours, especially when you factor in another job, etc. but as others have remarked, it is a different mindset when you do it for yourself ;))
That said, not sure what should be done, and how it should be gone about to make things better for the majority, which incidentally, would probably mean a lot of downsizing before growth starts again (not that I advocate such a thing !!) once things are stabilized...
11/12/2004 (3:19 am)
I'm happilly employed and work for a studio where at 17:00 every day, the vast majority of people are gone. By 18:00, you can hear the proverbial fly buzz around. No perma crunches. No mandatory overtime for the salaried folks, and the QA team don't have to do any (they get financial incentives to do so, 'though ;))
And yes, this is not a small studio anymore (it was less than a year ago, but I wasn't there back then), and it's still growing.
All the industry doesn't work the way that certain EA (and others) units function, whether it's AAA, first/second or third party, or even indies (a lot of indies put in very, very long hours, especially when you factor in another job, etc. but as others have remarked, it is a different mindset when you do it for yourself ;))
That said, not sure what should be done, and how it should be gone about to make things better for the majority, which incidentally, would probably mean a lot of downsizing before growth starts again (not that I advocate such a thing !!) once things are stabilized...
#14
If anyone is this situation, my advice is GET OUT before your body is beyond recovery. Working in a factory or store may not be intellectually stimulating but it keeps the bills paid until you can find a good employer.
If I knew what was I was doing to my body before I got ill, I would have quit the industry and walked away. If I could go back I would turn down the
11/12/2004 (3:24 am)
I really feel for them. I used to constantly work 60-100 hours a week as a developer. I completely burnt out after 5 years and am now disabled. I cannot work or stay awake for 8 hours (I have M.E / C.F.S) any more.If anyone is this situation, my advice is GET OUT before your body is beyond recovery. Working in a factory or store may not be intellectually stimulating but it keeps the bills paid until you can find a good employer.
If I knew what was I was doing to my body before I got ill, I would have quit the industry and walked away. If I could go back I would turn down the
#15
11/12/2004 (3:36 am)
Sorry that was a bit heavy! To sort it all all out they should start paying developers by the hour. That would make them think ;)
#16
I heard it was a royal pain in the backside to work for a major game dev company, did not realise they were so dehumanizing.
Heck, in the Navy (where one has no say at all) I worked 4 days straight on several occasions (I mean straight, just the usual bathroom break and food)
Last month i logged 4 days where I worked 16 hours, but was compensated for the hours.
-Ron
11/12/2004 (4:39 am)
WOW!I heard it was a royal pain in the backside to work for a major game dev company, did not realise they were so dehumanizing.
Heck, in the Navy (where one has no say at all) I worked 4 days straight on several occasions (I mean straight, just the usual bathroom break and food)
Last month i logged 4 days where I worked 16 hours, but was compensated for the hours.
-Ron
#17
11/12/2004 (6:22 am)
I read that article with a dose of disbelief. Not because I thought it wasn't true, but because it seemed too screwed up to be true. Then again, I look at the publishing company I left, and the fact that my buddy now works 6 day weeks there now with no comp time, and they're looking to lay off more techs, and up the schedule on the rest(despite the fact that the IT department now has more executives than techs in it... go figure).
#18
11/12/2004 (7:04 am)
And I though that I was exploited before LOL......
#20
Now, I can pretty much tell you for a fact that people aren't really WORKING all 90 of their required hours. Most programmers are productive maybe 30 hours a week... increasing their hours increases the amount of work you get from them a little, but two guys working 40 hours a week would be FAR more productive than one guy working 90. By the time you get to hour 60 or so, you are taking 4 hours to get done what you could do in 1 under normal conditions. When companies start mandating that much time, a lot of errands and web-surfing starts getting counted as "work." (Not to mention time spent working on one's resume...)
Acts of 'heroic development', where the team puts in a 70+ hours a week at the end of the project to make it succeed, are kinda cool AFTER the fact (during the middle of it it's a lot less romantic and cool), but that sort of crap should never be required nor commonplace. The fact that managers are creating schedules that depend on extremes of this garbage - and in fact, can't even prevent it without escalating it if that is really their intention - shows just how screwed up the industry truly is.
A wake-up call is sorely needed. It was badly needed when I left the mainstream industry four years ago. It sounds like it has only gotten worse.
And HOT-DANG on the class-action, if it goes through and succeeds. Just the wake-up call the doctor ordered. My worry is that instead of learning their lesson and treating their employees as human beings instead of disposable parts, the big publishers like EA will simply get their highly-paid legal teams (who work half the hours of the game teams, for much more money) to create legal protections in their contracts and practices to allow them to go back to the same old crap.
11/12/2004 (7:57 am)
Based on things I have seen first-hand or heard directly from employees in the game industry and other parts of the software development industry, I do not find this rant difficult to believe. This case is a little more extreme than what I've experienced, but not by too far. Now, I can pretty much tell you for a fact that people aren't really WORKING all 90 of their required hours. Most programmers are productive maybe 30 hours a week... increasing their hours increases the amount of work you get from them a little, but two guys working 40 hours a week would be FAR more productive than one guy working 90. By the time you get to hour 60 or so, you are taking 4 hours to get done what you could do in 1 under normal conditions. When companies start mandating that much time, a lot of errands and web-surfing starts getting counted as "work." (Not to mention time spent working on one's resume...)
Acts of 'heroic development', where the team puts in a 70+ hours a week at the end of the project to make it succeed, are kinda cool AFTER the fact (during the middle of it it's a lot less romantic and cool), but that sort of crap should never be required nor commonplace. The fact that managers are creating schedules that depend on extremes of this garbage - and in fact, can't even prevent it without escalating it if that is really their intention - shows just how screwed up the industry truly is.
A wake-up call is sorely needed. It was badly needed when I left the mainstream industry four years ago. It sounds like it has only gotten worse.
And HOT-DANG on the class-action, if it goes through and succeeds. Just the wake-up call the doctor ordered. My worry is that instead of learning their lesson and treating their employees as human beings instead of disposable parts, the big publishers like EA will simply get their highly-paid legal teams (who work half the hours of the game teams, for much more money) to create legal protections in their contracts and practices to allow them to go back to the same old crap.
Torque 3D Owner Ted Southard
I second that emotion. Jeez, those guys have it pretty hard... Just makes me glad that their HR department never responded to any of my resumes ;)