Kinda New - But have a question

#1 BASIC is that even around still? lol
Thats what i started to learn with and i was 12 at the time, im 23 now.

Right now all i am doing is learning the guts of the Torque engine so i can make some changes to get a prototype up and running of a arcade type boat racing game. The rest of my team consist of 2 artist, but its been a lil hard to keep them motivated.

#2 Heh yeah BASIC is still hanging in there. I'm only using it too give us a little boost. I've made some pretty awesome games with it in the past. I havn't checked out any of this torque engine stuff. I havn't even really read up about it. :P I gotta do that..

#3 Ben, don't sweat the company thing. Since I'm pretty sure you haven't shelled out the couple hundred dollars it takes to incorporate(unless you fill out all the forms yourself, but you're too young for any of this company stuff anyway), you don't need to worry about either having a company, or keeping one.

Do this: You and your friends make up a name for your group, and stick with that. If you guys are still around in a few years, and/or you pump out a game that you want to market then worry about forming a company. Because just coming up with a name doesn't make it a legal entity, regardless of the many people on game sites who refer to their groups as "companies" when they really aren't.

BTW: This doesn't answer your original question, mainly because I've been out of high school well over a decade, but I thought you could use the tip.

#4 Thanks for the advice Ted :) We hope to get our games at least on here for people to enjoy. Our 2D games may not be as popular as all the other games...but it still brings us one step closer to 3D. We would like to get money from game developement, but we see that as a cherry on top sort of thing. We mainly make the games just for fun and for people to enjoy. I can promise you this...one of our upcoming games is going to be the best project that I've made. I've been working on it before I was in a "group", and now we are finally making it a full game. After we program it now in 2D, we will program it later in to a newer version in 3D. The game is a battle game such as WarCraft or Diablo or something like that. It's going to bring some rememberable fight scenes and some really good graphics for a 2D game. Hopefully it will give us some recognition :)

Cya guys around.

#5 Ben, I am almost 15 and I am currently in high-school.

My "company" (It is not a legal entity, yet) is going to be making games with the TGE/TSE so I can pay for college.

If you want to contact me you can.

When I learned BASIC I learned basic BASIC. Then I learned a pretty good dialect called LibertyBASIC (www.libertybasic.com) and I liked that. THe developer of the dialect and the community have pretty good stuff for making games with that.

One of the leading LibertyBASIC community members is Alyce Watson (been to long to remember spelling). Alyce made many IDEs and Game programs to help the LB community.

Robert Pierce,
Uber Real Games
robertsim007@woh.rr.com

#6 Thanks Robert...but the BASIC we are using is Blitz Basic. It's pretty nice for 2D games. I was trying to convince my team to use TGE/TSE, but they want to program the real way, and not the cheap way. And I agree with them. We want to program from scratch with our own engine and everything. The TGE seems limited to what you can do, which is what we don't want.

#7 My game Dark Region is an MMORPG and the art is not up but I got the netcode and basics up pretty good. THe only limitations I have found with the TGE is my horrible ability to program 3D code and other graphics code.

Robert Pierce,
Uber Real Games

#8 Yeah but with TGE...its all done somebody elses way..not your own way. Which leads you to the limitations of possibilities. I personally think its better for me, myself, to program all the things needed in my own format and way, so that I know how to fully manipulate things and finally complete my game with the best that I have.

besides...professional companies such as Bungie do not use things such as Torque or other commercial game engines. They make them theirselves.

#9 I know, I once tryed to make my own engine. Gave up due to my horrid skill in 3d.
But when you have many programmers that have been in college for years and you have the resources to pay them they make the good base engines.

Bungie, I believe there are at least 12 programmers.

Robert Pierce,
Uber Real Games

#10 Ben, if your guys are all geared up to do things from ground up, then by all means you should go for it. Though at the end of it all, your game may not have many features (less likely), or you may not even complete the game (more likely), you will at least learn the mechanics behind a game engine, and that in itself is invaluable knowledge.

In addition, it will probably help you appreciate and exploit engines like Torque better! ;) You guys are still young and there's no better way to learn. Plus if you do complete it, or even just the engine, it would be good for the resume. :)

#11 Torque is out of the question for us. It's the easy way out and is not the correct way to make games [In our perspective] Major businesses like EA and Criterion and Bungie, and all the rest, don't use these cheap engines like Torque and so on...as I said earlier... It is best to learn the full programming syntax and, not to mention the basics of it, because it will be very good for you in the long run, and you will be a better understood programmer.

As for your comments like saying we wont have features and wont finish games....that is out of the question as well. We will probably have MORE features than Torque or any other store bought game engine. Because it is not only programmed by us, but we set the limitations to what we want. What do you think they made Torque with...programming! They made it in their own special little way with their own techniques. Which is a disadvantage to you and other users.

Basically what I'm trying to say is you as a person can make something 50 times better than making something on Torque. That's what programming is all about.

#12 Wow, that seems like an incredibly simplistic view on the place of game engines. What you neglected to talk about is the ammount of time this will take, yes you could make an engine for your game 50x better than Torque, but how long will it take you?

Just stop and think for a bit - ask your self why people use game engines? Is it because nobody is as good a coder as you? Is it because game developers are intrinsically lazy? Or is it perhaps that a lot of the time, a mature, tested, featurefull game engine can actually help produce a good, solid game in a short ammount of time?

If it cost more in monetary terms to buy an engine, than it costs in time/money to code an equivelant engine, then surely nobody would use a game engine, and there would be no point selling them.

If you want to learn how to write an engine, then go ahead, try it, get stuck, ask questions, look at source, and learn. If you really want to make games, then stop creating obstacles for yourself, and use whatever tools will get the job done. What is more important to you? Getting a game done, or sticking to your self-inflicted 'can't take the easy way' purist, eliteist game development methodology?

I cannot understand this idea you have about the 'correct' way to make a game, the only, only, only thing that constitutes a 'correctly' made game, is the fact that it is finished. If it isn't finished, then the path you took wasn't the correct one.

#13 Ugh, that sounded a bit harsh. I just want to get my point accross. I've been in the same position as you, and in that position, I would probably not listen to that post any more than you are likely to :P

I would just say, don't keep that way of thinking with you for too long, it won't get you far. You wont find many projects/teams who don't use any external libraries, you wont learn how other people code things, or how different projects are coded without looking at some source, or at least using other API's.

It does seem logical that if you code everything yourself, you will learn more, but it's just not the case. You get stuck in a rut, and you'll find it hard to take your projects past the interesting techie bits. This isn't through lack of effort, just lack of experience.
There are a lot of coders out there, with a lot of collective experience, who are writing a lot of libraries for a lot of game related projects. They want to help game developers by making life just that bit easier, it would be a shame not to take advantage of their generosity.

Anyway, whatever you do, good luck with it mate.

#14 Have to admit I got a giggle out of how this thread turned out...15, programming games in Basic, yet Torque is not good enough for you/the easy way out. Interesting ;)

Edit:

All teasing aside, it's important for you to realize that TGE is a Software Development Kit--that happens to ship not only with source code, but with working examples of game types to get you started. With how you described you and your team's decision to not use TGE, it implies a basic misunderstanding of how TGE should be used.

You say that you want to write your engine from scratch (admirable, but see below), saying that it's the easy way out. Well, keep in mind--by that point of view, you need to also write:

Your own operating system
Your own Windows API
Your own compiler
Your own networking protocols
Your own file system
.....
Why? because using proven code and applications that accomplish required taks and functionality is "the easy way out".

What I am getting at is that each of the things mentioned above are in the same category as the Torque Gaming Engine: Tools to provide you with capabilities. With TGE, you even get the source, giving you MORE freedom than you have with many of the things mentioned above, not to mention other tools that you will use even in the process of writing your own game engine. Are you going to also write your own file editors?

Honestly, it is somewhat naive to view TGE the way you are right now. Is it possible to build a game engine from main(); on? Absolutely. Does it make sense given the resources TGE, or any other Software Development Kit gives you, especially for the price?

Only if you have 10+ person-years and a -huge- level of experience behind you, not to mention a trust fund to carry you through the years of full time work without getting paid.

Also, to clear up some misunderstandings:

Quote:Major businesses like EA and Criterion and Bungie, and all the rest, don't use these cheap engines like Torque and so on

TGE is basically the code written by the developers of Tribes and Tribes 2 to implement those (commerically released and successful) games. They just happened to have now made their code public. Also, you can absolutely be confident that EA, Criterion, Bungie, and "all the rest" most certainly re-use code from past projects in their future projects when it is appropriate, which is exactly what TGE is--successful code from past projects available for our use. Additionally, you are absolutely incorrect when you think that every game development company starts from scratch. In fact, a large portion of the original Everquest team has formed a company, fully financed by Microsoft, which as their first order of business licensed the next generation Unreal "Gaming Engine"--and you can be sure it was at thousands of times the cost of TGE.

Finally, after re-reading your posts several times, I think you have a very bad assumption: when you purchase Torque, you get the SOURCE CODE behind that demo you have looked at---you are not limited by anything at all whatsoever, as long as you have the programming and software development skills to actually use an SDK the way it is designed.

TGE is not just that demo you have seen. TGE when purchased is far far more than you can imagine. In fact, even the name "Torque Gaming Engine" is very misleading--because it is a fully featured Software Development Kit, not simply a mission file editor and script interpreter as it appears you and your team think it is...

#15 Thanks for all the replies on the subject :) It seems we are both misunderstanding each other. For one...I didn't mean to say I was going to make my own game engine [ if i ever said that ]. We just want to make our games using old time programs like Microsoft Visual Studio. Also...BASIC isn't the only language I know. I'm very familiar with C++. We just chose to go down to BASIC because my teammates are not as experienced as I am. Thirdly, I was thinking of Torque as somewhat of a WarCraft III World Editor...if you've ever played WarCraft. By looking at snapshots..I was thinking it was as simple as click and drag, which made me believe its limitations and lack of fun.

Either way, our group still has no interest in paying 100 dollars for the Torque engine. Why hire somebody if you can do the job. We are very capable of making games without a game engine is what I'm saying. It may take longer, but it can be done.

And who knows...maybe when we start 3D games..we might use Torque or another game engine.

--

One little question though....has anybody actually gotten their game to the public when they made their game with torque? Just curious.

#16 Yes, with no disrespect, you completely misunderstand what Torque is and what it provides you. Simply put, NO team can duplicate (in design or execution) even the basics of what Torque provides you for the resource cost associated versus the cost of the engine: Even if it took you a month per person to get $100 for the engine, it would take literally at LEAST a year per person, full time (50+ hours a week) to even come close to a single player engine with minimal platform support, rendering, collision, and other VERY basic requirements of any "game engine".

Here is an analogy that while not completely accurate, should give you a better feeling:

Quote:Either way, our group still has no interest in paying 100 dollars for the Torque engine. Why hire somebody if you can do the job. We are very capable of making games without a game engine is what I'm saying. It may take longer, but it can be done.

"Why pay $250 to buy a plane ticket to florida, when you can design your own plane, build it, learn to fly it, and other wise -do the job- on your own?"

Regarding games to market, simply take a look at the Garage Games "Play Games" page: www.garagegames.com/pg/ As far as I am aware, all of those games were built with TGE as their underlying SDK.

#17 There are achievements here and there, like Marble Blast being on every new iBook G4..... Not too sure if Tribes and Tribes 2 would count, it's pretty much the same engine.

On a personal level, I've had small measured success in quickly pushing out an advergame using Torque where budget and time are at a premium. I'm sure other developers have their success stories too.

Failed to notice the first time round that you are making a 2D game. TGE is workable for this, but may not be the best tool. Flash is gaining popularity in this area, after actionscript underwent several revisions. Java is also interesting to use. The performance may be a tad questionable, but you are insulated from operating system complications. In either case, you have the option of making it a web-based game, so you can show off your work.

Have you considered making mobile phone games? You more or less do them from the ground up, and yet can deliver in about a month for a beginner, or 3 days to a week once you have a bit of experience. The challenge is cramming all the goodness into the 64kB or 128 kB the handset might be limted to. (And above all, it's much easier to find somebody to distribute your games though the $$ might come in a bit slowly)

P.S. @Stephen: Remember DOS4GW? A DOS4TGE could mean true platform independence ;)

#18 This is clearly going nowhere at all. What I'm saying about all this with Torque is I can make a game without torque. It isn't tough for me at any level, and if it gets tough, I look at my resources in books. Your way might be to use Torque and make games that way, which is fine. But I don't want to follow that path. I want to program games in my fashion. Believe it or not, Torque isn't the best solution.

To what Eugene says... We don't really want to make mobile phone games. We'd rather make PC games. We are working our way up by taking one step at a time. Also..Flash, in my opinion, isn't the best for games. Yeah you can make games with it, but I find that programming in C++ or simple languages like BASIC would be not only more effective, but more unlimited.

I'm sorry if I've appeared to any of you guys as this SOB arguer, but this whole Torque thing has brought the worst out of me. I'd like to start over and just forget about this whole nonsense of a fight. Hopefully we can get on each others good side :)

Thanks for all the advice prior to the whole Torque discussion. Cya guys lata

#19 Ben,
Whilst i can see your point entirly.
My personal P.O.V. is that the Torque Game Engine is very much a one size fits all, this leaves you to modifie the engine to what you need and leve you more time to make the game you want. As for big names like E.A. not using cheap engines like Torque, I disagree. E.A. have just added Criterion, the studio behind Renderware. Renderware is, like the Torque Game Engine middleware.
The reason you pay so little for Torque is because the Garage Games business plan is to help indies and small development teams to make thier dreams reality.
-James B.

P.S. Good luck though.

#20 To add to what James here just said, here's a list of the engines that the big companies like EA use:

Lithtech
Cryotek(dont remember if that was the company or engine name, but they were pretty close)
UnReal
Doom
Turbine
Torque(yes, Tribes and Tribes 2 count, because it's a AAA engine)
Vulpine
etc...

Torque is not taking the easy way out, because there isn't supposed to be a hard way in the first place. ;)