How close is too close
by Gary Preston · in General Discussion · 09/15/2004 (12:53 pm) · 6 replies
Ok so the thread title isn't really that great, but I was having trouble thinking of something better :)
In my quest to learn Torque, well extend my rather limited knowledge so that I'll be in a better position to make a start on a few game ideas I have. I have begun making several small test games, certainly not full playable games, more proof of concepts.
During this, I thought I may as well create a Tron style game to learn a little more about difs, from the arena modelling side, and modifying the engine via code or script to provide the traditional game control and special effects. In all it's a game that requires me to learn many concepts that will be of great use in future projects.
Now this "game", although I use the word loosly :P will be nothing more than one more stepping stone to developing my first original game concept (in other words, won't be released, won't be sold). However, while I've been working on it, it got me thinking about copyrights/trademarks and such.
Lets assume out there somewhere, there is a game developer that wants to create a commercial tron game, lets assume that Tron 2 doesn't exist, and that none of the freeware or gpl games exist, it's a competition free environment :P Now, this person couldn't make a game called tron due to the film and legal implications.
However, I'm pretty sure you could make a LightCycles game. However, how far could you go on the lines of similarity before you end up in legal troubles. For example, modelling, if your bikes that look like the bikes in the film even if you have created the models yourself, I guess this would be infringing on someones rights (or would it?) but how about if you created modified bikes or compleatly different bikes?
How about the light wall, if your new bikes left behind a trail of light that other players had to avoid, would this be infringing on anything?
The thing is, I can see how using someone elses art, music, sound effects, story, characters, names, world etc etc is obviously going to infringe someones rights if done without permission. However, when it comes to concepts derived from a film, how far can things go before they also break various laws?
Could a developer make a game based around the tron cycles section of the film without getting themselves into legal trouble. Even if they had to go to the lengths of creating a new world and story, new arena styles, new bikes (or even changing it from bikes), with the only things that remained the same been the light walls coming out of the rear of the vehicle, and the idea of running the opponents into your light wall.
I've used tron as an example as it's a film I happen to be very fond of, and the original question popped into my head while I worked on my test game. It is purly hypothetical from the pov of my test game, since I have no plans to release the game, nor sell it, but the question I feel could apply to many future projects.
In a similar way, I guess the same goes for tetris, for example you can make a game based on falling blocks that have to make lines to score points, so long as you don't call it Tetris, or any *Tris varient. But when it comes to game ideas that have been sparked by a section of a film, how close is too close :)
In my quest to learn Torque, well extend my rather limited knowledge so that I'll be in a better position to make a start on a few game ideas I have. I have begun making several small test games, certainly not full playable games, more proof of concepts.
During this, I thought I may as well create a Tron style game to learn a little more about difs, from the arena modelling side, and modifying the engine via code or script to provide the traditional game control and special effects. In all it's a game that requires me to learn many concepts that will be of great use in future projects.
Now this "game", although I use the word loosly :P will be nothing more than one more stepping stone to developing my first original game concept (in other words, won't be released, won't be sold). However, while I've been working on it, it got me thinking about copyrights/trademarks and such.
Lets assume out there somewhere, there is a game developer that wants to create a commercial tron game, lets assume that Tron 2 doesn't exist, and that none of the freeware or gpl games exist, it's a competition free environment :P Now, this person couldn't make a game called tron due to the film and legal implications.
However, I'm pretty sure you could make a LightCycles game. However, how far could you go on the lines of similarity before you end up in legal troubles. For example, modelling, if your bikes that look like the bikes in the film even if you have created the models yourself, I guess this would be infringing on someones rights (or would it?) but how about if you created modified bikes or compleatly different bikes?
How about the light wall, if your new bikes left behind a trail of light that other players had to avoid, would this be infringing on anything?
The thing is, I can see how using someone elses art, music, sound effects, story, characters, names, world etc etc is obviously going to infringe someones rights if done without permission. However, when it comes to concepts derived from a film, how far can things go before they also break various laws?
Could a developer make a game based around the tron cycles section of the film without getting themselves into legal trouble. Even if they had to go to the lengths of creating a new world and story, new arena styles, new bikes (or even changing it from bikes), with the only things that remained the same been the light walls coming out of the rear of the vehicle, and the idea of running the opponents into your light wall.
I've used tron as an example as it's a film I happen to be very fond of, and the original question popped into my head while I worked on my test game. It is purly hypothetical from the pov of my test game, since I have no plans to release the game, nor sell it, but the question I feel could apply to many future projects.
In a similar way, I guess the same goes for tetris, for example you can make a game based on falling blocks that have to make lines to score points, so long as you don't call it Tetris, or any *Tris varient. But when it comes to game ideas that have been sparked by a section of a film, how close is too close :)
#2
09/15/2004 (3:11 pm)
I've seen other people recommend www.gamelawyer.com's services; if you're really serious about developing and selling a Tron clone, I'd seek professional advice.
#3
Cheers for the link though, I'll keep that in mind for some of future projects :)
09/16/2004 (2:28 am)
I think you both misunderstood me, I have no intention in selling a tron clone. I was just intrested in the potential problems developing a title like that could involve. Tron was mearly an example since it is a film and game I'm familar with.Cheers for the link though, I'll keep that in mind for some of future projects :)
#4
Basically, you just cant afford to get into a legal battle, so avoid it like the plague. Dont use concepts anyone else could even remotely be offended by (from a copyright sense), ESPECIALLY anything by large media companies such as film, tv, etc etc.
09/16/2004 (4:23 am)
Gary: from what Tom Buscaglia said at the last IGC, basically, anything that looks even remotely copyright is a bad idea.Basically, you just cant afford to get into a legal battle, so avoid it like the plague. Dont use concepts anyone else could even remotely be offended by (from a copyright sense), ESPECIALLY anything by large media companies such as film, tv, etc etc.
#5
The base concept of Unreal (escape the planet) is the base concept for Chronicles of Riddick (escape Butcher Bay). The gameplay elements are even extremely similar (FPS, multiple weapons, cunning enemies). Riddick advances the principle by adding advanced rendering, stealth tricks and nicely-handled melee fighting to the mix, but otherwise they're extremely similar from the ground up. The ip is completely different, though, and I doubt anyone would mistake Riddick for Unreal.
Creating a game where players are on some type of two-wheeled vehicle attempting to force the another to crash into its trail while avoiding crashing itself is extremely similar in concept to a multiplayer snake game (otherwise the point is to not crash into yourself but to still get the pellet). But creating a vehicle with a "light wall" behind it is extremely similar to the light-cycle ip's content. Even if you created a game where the player would "fall off the bike" when they hit a smoke trail, you could use traditional motorcycles (albeit badly in need of service and well under the EPA clean-air regulations). Same concept, but a different implementation.
I feel like I'm talking myself in circles trying to explain this.
Regardless, Phil is right. If there's a chance (and using a "wall of light" behind a vehicle with the same gameplay elements as Tron will give them a chance to sick their lawyers on you), then companies will often take it. Even if it's only to shut you down. Because, realistically, a normal person or a small team doesn't have the financial resources to fight something that is on the edge of ip law (or even well within our rights, often).
09/16/2004 (5:52 am)
I'm not sure I misunderstood. I took the lightcycle concept and applied it to another popular title that people have been cloning like crazy for years. Both work similarly, except that you have an extra resource to harvest (food) to make your t[r]ail grow.The base concept of Unreal (escape the planet) is the base concept for Chronicles of Riddick (escape Butcher Bay). The gameplay elements are even extremely similar (FPS, multiple weapons, cunning enemies). Riddick advances the principle by adding advanced rendering, stealth tricks and nicely-handled melee fighting to the mix, but otherwise they're extremely similar from the ground up. The ip is completely different, though, and I doubt anyone would mistake Riddick for Unreal.
Creating a game where players are on some type of two-wheeled vehicle attempting to force the another to crash into its trail while avoiding crashing itself is extremely similar in concept to a multiplayer snake game (otherwise the point is to not crash into yourself but to still get the pellet). But creating a vehicle with a "light wall" behind it is extremely similar to the light-cycle ip's content. Even if you created a game where the player would "fall off the bike" when they hit a smoke trail, you could use traditional motorcycles (albeit badly in need of service and well under the EPA clean-air regulations). Same concept, but a different implementation.
I feel like I'm talking myself in circles trying to explain this.
Regardless, Phil is right. If there's a chance (and using a "wall of light" behind a vehicle with the same gameplay elements as Tron will give them a chance to sick their lawyers on you), then companies will often take it. Even if it's only to shut you down. Because, realistically, a normal person or a small team doesn't have the financial resources to fight something that is on the edge of ip law (or even well within our rights, often).
#6
As long as you don't call it Tron and you dont use any of the same terminology from the game or movie... you create a whole new story and arena... and make the bikes look different somehow... who could complain?
David mentioned the game Snakes... the principle is the same, that is, the gameplay mechanics... but there's no copyright infringement there, because... it's using a snake and not a bike with a trail!
I think you can use your own judgment call here... ask yourself, "is this something people would look at and say copyright infringment?" If you have a doubt, then change it until you have no doubt about it.
09/16/2004 (12:32 pm)
It would be a "clone" and nothing more, so I say it's perfectly safe to do, if you wanted to....As long as you don't call it Tron and you dont use any of the same terminology from the game or movie... you create a whole new story and arena... and make the bikes look different somehow... who could complain?
David mentioned the game Snakes... the principle is the same, that is, the gameplay mechanics... but there's no copyright infringement there, because... it's using a snake and not a bike with a trail!
I think you can use your own judgment call here... ask yourself, "is this something people would look at and say copyright infringment?" If you have a doubt, then change it until you have no doubt about it.
Employee David Montgomery-Blake
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