Future of Games: Virtual Reality?
by Will Harrison · in General Discussion · 09/12/2004 (1:23 am) · 22 replies
I think Virtual or Augmented Reality is really all about HMDs (head-mounted displays) and, to a lesser extent, motion/orientation tracking technology.
Are HMDs the way of the future? Will it be a sort of panacea for display technology?
Are HMDs the way of the future? Will it be a sort of panacea for display technology?
#2
That technology is maybe ok for trained peoples but for us the average Joe, we will get sick quickly with the result you can imagine. I think that a Japanese firm already tested this but after they had to clean and disinfect the test laboratory the 5th time they decided to give up (throw up ? :D )
I think that the problem is that your brain see movements with no reference that indicate that you are static (like in front of a screen, you see the room around the screen) so the brain see movements, think that you are moving but message from your inner ear give no message of movement, this create a kind of "sea sick" sensation to the non trained persons, resulting in you turn green and a urge to "talk to the big white phone".
09/12/2004 (1:32 am)
For what I read about HMD it that you also need a "barf bag" attached to it ;)That technology is maybe ok for trained peoples but for us the average Joe, we will get sick quickly with the result you can imagine. I think that a Japanese firm already tested this but after they had to clean and disinfect the test laboratory the 5th time they decided to give up (throw up ? :D )
I think that the problem is that your brain see movements with no reference that indicate that you are static (like in front of a screen, you see the room around the screen) so the brain see movements, think that you are moving but message from your inner ear give no message of movement, this create a kind of "sea sick" sensation to the non trained persons, resulting in you turn green and a urge to "talk to the big white phone".
#3
I'll give you 10 seconds to run first :)
09/12/2004 (1:41 am)
I'll tell you the game of the future...I'll give you 10 seconds to run first :)
#4
There are some people that cant play FPSs because it makes them sick too...
it just might be something that a gamer could get used to (HMDs), i dont know.
I tried this HMD-based VR game a long time ago at some exhibition and I didnt feel sick, but it was so laggy, it wasnt much fun... but it would pale in comparison to what could be done today, im sure.
With head-tracking, the head would move and the scene would change accordingly, so there may not be that inner ear problem... like being on a boat or airplane... because you know you're moving, you feel it cause you're doing it, and the view is changing with your movements.
I hope it will work though.... cause I dont like working or playing in front of the computer screen anymore... feels uncomfortable somehow. I would rather stand and move then be sitting hunched over staring closely at a screen, straining my wrists and whatever.... anyone feel the same way?
09/12/2004 (2:01 am)
Game of the future? Tell me! :)There are some people that cant play FPSs because it makes them sick too...
it just might be something that a gamer could get used to (HMDs), i dont know.
I tried this HMD-based VR game a long time ago at some exhibition and I didnt feel sick, but it was so laggy, it wasnt much fun... but it would pale in comparison to what could be done today, im sure.
With head-tracking, the head would move and the scene would change accordingly, so there may not be that inner ear problem... like being on a boat or airplane... because you know you're moving, you feel it cause you're doing it, and the view is changing with your movements.
I hope it will work though.... cause I dont like working or playing in front of the computer screen anymore... feels uncomfortable somehow. I would rather stand and move then be sitting hunched over staring closely at a screen, straining my wrists and whatever.... anyone feel the same way?
#5
Silent Scope
and
Beach Head
Both were easy and fairly fun to play.... no urge to "talk to the big white phone" at all.... :)
09/12/2004 (2:23 am)
I just remembered these two VR-type games I've played before:Silent Scope
and
Beach Head
Both were easy and fairly fun to play.... no urge to "talk to the big white phone" at all.... :)
#6
Microvision
...One possible future for display technology.
09/12/2004 (2:34 am)
Also, take a look at this:Microvision
...One possible future for display technology.
#7
09/12/2004 (8:35 am)
When I can strangle idiot CounterStrikers with AIM Bots through their computer, I'll feel that VR has finally arrived. But not until then.
#8
09/12/2004 (11:52 am)
Lol.... maybe when data gloves are common you could do that.
#9
09/12/2004 (2:32 pm)
I'm much more interested in virtual unreality... I see reality all day long, why would I want more of it when I sit down to play?
#10
I personally am not fond of virtual reality, or simulators where they put something into your body, it scares me. As for beach-head, that game really is boring to me, and yes it makes me ill, because of that thing on your head, and my vision. I donno about you guys but i'm 6'4 (nearly), and I wear glasses, and when I take my glasses off and use beach-head i get serious head-aches, dizziness, and its hard for me to see afterword.
I hope that gaming will take another big toal like it did in the early-semi late 90s. The gaming work pretty much set the standards and made history, heck there weren't black cases untill gamers modded them.
P.s. Silent Scope 1 and 2 were too easy to beat, yea so i had unlimited tokens, but still!
09/12/2004 (2:42 pm)
I honestly have no clue what the future will hold for gaming. What I would love to see is more realistic worlds, you know, maybe new mapping where everything is built out of maybe atomic structures like pixels for 2d, that way things can break move and all that. I personally am not fond of virtual reality, or simulators where they put something into your body, it scares me. As for beach-head, that game really is boring to me, and yes it makes me ill, because of that thing on your head, and my vision. I donno about you guys but i'm 6'4 (nearly), and I wear glasses, and when I take my glasses off and use beach-head i get serious head-aches, dizziness, and its hard for me to see afterword.
I hope that gaming will take another big toal like it did in the early-semi late 90s. The gaming work pretty much set the standards and made history, heck there weren't black cases untill gamers modded them.
P.s. Silent Scope 1 and 2 were too easy to beat, yea so i had unlimited tokens, but still!
#11
09/12/2004 (2:42 pm)
All VR needs right now to set it off and bump up it's progress in gamin is for just ONE of the HDTV manufacturers to realize that their HDTV screens have 4 times greater resolution than current headsets or goggle systems. All of them claim they need "better resolution" yet not one of them that I know of has even considered the HDTV format for their headgear. I would personally love to start using TGE in VR development, I have some great ideas on how to capitalize on it, but without those better vision systems (I.E. HDTV headset) I would be fighting a seriously uphill battle against the current market.
#12
Polar opposites!
joshua, I'm talking about display technology... not specifically realistic graphics.
gonzo, there definitely has to be higher resolutions for it to work well.
09/12/2004 (5:02 pm)
Quote:I'm much more interested in virtual unreality... I see reality all day long, why would I want more of it when I sit down to play?
Quote:What I would love to see is more realistic worlds, you know, maybe new mapping where everything is built out of maybe atomic structures like pixels for 2d, that way things can break move and all that.
Polar opposites!
joshua, I'm talking about display technology... not specifically realistic graphics.
gonzo, there definitely has to be higher resolutions for it to work well.
#13
Then I'll get a head mounted display and kick your ass in STAR RAIDERS!
I guess what I meant was realistic or not, I like the limitations of what we have to work with today... I'm definitely wary of getting too into the machine... you know, like they've already hooked chimp brains up to robot arms and taught the chimps the use the arm through mental force alone... it's only a matter of time before FPS'ers become a matter of whose brain can "think" quicker... though maybe that's the slippery slope fallacy at play.
I (heart) TV scanlines and blistery thumbs! Hold the anti-aliasing and pass the pixels, please.
09/12/2004 (7:38 pm)
I want to get a HDTV and hook it up to my computer to play old NES ROMS... YEAH!!Then I'll get a head mounted display and kick your ass in STAR RAIDERS!
I guess what I meant was realistic or not, I like the limitations of what we have to work with today... I'm definitely wary of getting too into the machine... you know, like they've already hooked chimp brains up to robot arms and taught the chimps the use the arm through mental force alone... it's only a matter of time before FPS'ers become a matter of whose brain can "think" quicker... though maybe that's the slippery slope fallacy at play.
I (heart) TV scanlines and blistery thumbs! Hold the anti-aliasing and pass the pixels, please.
#14
Excerpts From "The Great Escape"
By Richard DeGrandpre.
Originally Printed in Adbusters Magazine
(only place I could find it online is here: www.islamamerica.org/articles.cfm/article_id/59/)
09/12/2004 (7:50 pm)
Quote:
French social theorist Jean Baudrillard has called the theft of reality the tendency of reality to disappear right before our eyes "the perfect crime." If pulled off successfully, this crime would leave no evidence of itself behind. The reason why is entirely human: the modern, technologized mind does not just accept virtual reality, it comes to prefer it.
Quote:The law of diminishing returns ... Once a brief honeymoon period is over, the "wow" power of each new generation of technology returns to essentially the same level as for the last generation. In other words, PlayStation 2 is next year's Pong... The point isn't that the graphics are more lifelike than ever before, but that they have to be -- and they will always have to continue to be -- if they are to seem anything more than ordinary. Furthermore, it's not that the latest in virtual reality is experienced as all that dramatic or spellbinding, but that the unplugged world is all the less dramatic and spellbinding as a result. Media technology do not bring great things to life, they simply shift the venue for where one has to go to feel alive.
Excerpts From "The Great Escape"
By Richard DeGrandpre.
Originally Printed in Adbusters Magazine
(only place I could find it online is here: www.islamamerica.org/articles.cfm/article_id/59/)
#15
viraul reality when I get home. Some people
in real world as just jerks!!!! They can finds their but if it was not attached to then. Ot nice
to know I can creat some world. You, know where I put code in a couple times and my charater can find thier dam feet!!! Also, better than most people I help all day long. smc Please note: I am being very sarcatic in jest.!!!
Happy game making. smc.
09/12/2004 (8:10 pm)
I work at W....during the day. I really do needviraul reality when I get home. Some people
in real world as just jerks!!!! They can finds their but if it was not attached to then. Ot nice
to know I can creat some world. You, know where I put code in a couple times and my charater can find thier dam feet!!! Also, better than most people I help all day long. smc Please note: I am being very sarcatic in jest.!!!
Happy game making. smc.
#16
This is what interests me most about HMDs:
Aim in one direction, shoot in another... while running in a completey different direction.
This cant be done practically with mice and keyboard.
The other thing is a health issue.
This world is becoming increasingly lethargic and sedentary due to the shifts brought on by the so called Information Age.
Children in North America especially are increasingly obese. Too much TV and playing video games.
VR has the potential to reverse this by breaking the conventions in the man-machine interface that we have all grown accustomed to. Interaction will become smooth, intuitive, and physical.
This has less to do with uber-realistic gee-whiz-bang graphics... and more to do with physical interaction and increasing gameplay possibilities.
Also, I would add, the implications go far beyond playing games.... this kind of technology can be used for work (just like in the microvision link) and for potentially alot of other things.
09/13/2004 (2:08 pm)
Some interesting insights there, everyone.This is what interests me most about HMDs:
Aim in one direction, shoot in another... while running in a completey different direction.
This cant be done practically with mice and keyboard.
The other thing is a health issue.
This world is becoming increasingly lethargic and sedentary due to the shifts brought on by the so called Information Age.
Children in North America especially are increasingly obese. Too much TV and playing video games.
VR has the potential to reverse this by breaking the conventions in the man-machine interface that we have all grown accustomed to. Interaction will become smooth, intuitive, and physical.
This has less to do with uber-realistic gee-whiz-bang graphics... and more to do with physical interaction and increasing gameplay possibilities.
Also, I would add, the implications go far beyond playing games.... this kind of technology can be used for work (just like in the microvision link) and for potentially alot of other things.
#17
Personally, I don't like the idea of "cyber implants" or anything invasive like that.
09/13/2004 (2:09 pm)
Joshua, I'm wary of that too...Personally, I don't like the idea of "cyber implants" or anything invasive like that.
#18
The resolution on a lot of them is pretty trashy as well. If you take a look at them make sure to carefully notice how they are counting pixels. Part of them like to count each red, green, and blue as seperate pixels so you would have to divide by 3 to get a better number. Of course viewing angle is very important if you want the most immersion.
Being able to move in a virtual environment is still not a totally solved problem as far as I know. There are some treadmill and pad type solutions but all have trade-offs.
Btw, I do research on a university project where we started off using a CAVE and switched to using a HMD with treadmill or other device for walking movement and motion tracker for look. One of the benefits of switching from the CAVE is that the complexity goes down a lot. CAVEs require multiple computers driving multiple walls while you can power a HMD with one computer. We keep the HMDs in 2D so the refresh rate is high and have yet to see someone lose their lunch. (I tried it on 3D mode and could only stand it for a little while and I play quite a few games.) The engine (Half-Life) we are using does not have support for stereo anyway. You still get more immersion just because it is all that you see.
A lot of this probably could be written better but I hope you get the idea.
09/13/2004 (9:54 pm)
I think part of the reason why people get sick with HMDs is that a lot of them run at 50 or 60Hz with 3D mode turned on. They basically split the frames of the video card which most go up to 120Hz. Also they might have an issue that the screen does not stay around till the next update making the flicker more noticable. (In other words, there is a semi-noticeable black frame each time.)The resolution on a lot of them is pretty trashy as well. If you take a look at them make sure to carefully notice how they are counting pixels. Part of them like to count each red, green, and blue as seperate pixels so you would have to divide by 3 to get a better number. Of course viewing angle is very important if you want the most immersion.
Being able to move in a virtual environment is still not a totally solved problem as far as I know. There are some treadmill and pad type solutions but all have trade-offs.
Btw, I do research on a university project where we started off using a CAVE and switched to using a HMD with treadmill or other device for walking movement and motion tracker for look. One of the benefits of switching from the CAVE is that the complexity goes down a lot. CAVEs require multiple computers driving multiple walls while you can power a HMD with one computer. We keep the HMDs in 2D so the refresh rate is high and have yet to see someone lose their lunch. (I tried it on 3D mode and could only stand it for a little while and I play quite a few games.) The engine (Half-Life) we are using does not have support for stereo anyway. You still get more immersion just because it is all that you see.
A lot of this probably could be written better but I hope you get the idea.
#19
I think that temporarily, the best way to handle movement is with an analog thumbstick on the gun/tracking device. Being able to run around (physically) inside a 3D world would be cool, but I think just being able to look around and aim freely is enough to get you into it.
The best that I've ever experienced is that beach head game I mentioned... and I felt fine playing that and thought the resolution was decent... and no noticeable flicker or low refresh rate.
Maybe when they come out with really thin wafer screens... or augmented reality (like at microvision.com).
09/14/2004 (1:21 am)
Thats great that you're working on a VR related project....I think that temporarily, the best way to handle movement is with an analog thumbstick on the gun/tracking device. Being able to run around (physically) inside a 3D world would be cool, but I think just being able to look around and aim freely is enough to get you into it.
The best that I've ever experienced is that beach head game I mentioned... and I felt fine playing that and thought the resolution was decent... and no noticeable flicker or low refresh rate.
Maybe when they come out with really thin wafer screens... or augmented reality (like at microvision.com).
#20
Unfortunately I have not tried out those simulations you linked to so I can not say anything about them.
I think my favorite thing to do in the CAVE was to look down off a cliff and jump. That just might be me though... heh
09/14/2004 (8:26 pm)
The reason why we had physical movement is because it was required otherwise we probably would try using a thumbstick or such. The project is for training and they wanted to see the trainees sweat. They had done the same project before and decided that just sitting around not using any air or exercising was not good enough. I also think it is neat to be able to walk and it corresponds into the virtual environment.Unfortunately I have not tried out those simulations you linked to so I can not say anything about them.
I think my favorite thing to do in the CAVE was to look down off a cliff and jump. That just might be me though... heh
Torque Owner Will Harrison
This would allow for several new things games:
- Independant aim, movement, and view; you can look one way and shoot in other direction (or rather, you don't have a crosshair "locked" to the center of your view)... and at the same time walk in another direction.
- Stereo vision and depth perception, furthering immersion, increasing players sense of position in world.
- It could create a greater field of view or peripheral vision.
- Most importantly, it would allow for faster and more intuitive control.
HMDs would be fitted with a mic and earphones too, making it easier and more natural to talk to each other in game.
The gun would have a little analog thumbstick (like on the PS2 controller). This would allow you to move or strafe around in any direction (not just 8 possible directions, like with the keyboard). It would also have force feedback, making it more real and fun.