Why is the XBox version bump-mapped?
by Michael McFadden · in Marble Blast · 09/10/2004 (7:39 pm) · 12 replies
I'm kinda worried about why you guys chose to add bump maps to the floors in the XBox version of Marble Blast Gold. You do know that real bumps like that are supposed to send the marble bouncing into the air, so why create an illusion of tiny bumps all over the floors? It would be maddening to say the least.
#2
To sum it up: Ever wonder why Super Monkey Ball kept the simplistic flat look on the floors? Surely the GameCube could handle it, but they went for function over form like they should have. And everyone loved the game and it got great reviews regardless.
09/11/2004 (8:22 am)
As I'm sure you learned while programming, don't do something just because you can. Even if you don't care that practically everyone will be pissed why the bumps in the floor do nothing but the white ledge on some platforms (like Beginner 1) send them bouncing into the air, I can argue that a cartoony game like yours is not supposed to use super-detailed, bump-mapped, dynamically lighted textures anyway.To sum it up: Ever wonder why Super Monkey Ball kept the simplistic flat look on the floors? Surely the GameCube could handle it, but they went for function over form like they should have. And everyone loved the game and it got great reviews regardless.
#3
09/11/2004 (9:11 am)
We'll keep your feedback in mind the next time we are pushing the limits of mid 1990's technology.
#4
Anyways, does anyone else not know when Super Monkey Ball 2 came out? It was August 26, 2002 for anyone who cares, not 1995 or whatever the hell Pat was thinking. That was before the Nintendo 64 came out.
Hey Pat, you should add wisps of fog around the levels and reflections all over the place. Hopefully you guys can make the graphics a complete impediment to gameplay instead of only partially. I'm serious - put a bunch of mirrors and fog near the gems, but add them only because it's the 21st century.
09/11/2004 (9:35 am)
Wow... just wow. I honestly hope that you're the only employee at GarageGames who is an ass hole.Anyways, does anyone else not know when Super Monkey Ball 2 came out? It was August 26, 2002 for anyone who cares, not 1995 or whatever the hell Pat was thinking. That was before the Nintendo 64 came out.
Hey Pat, you should add wisps of fog around the levels and reflections all over the place. Hopefully you guys can make the graphics a complete impediment to gameplay instead of only partially. I'm serious - put a bunch of mirrors and fog near the gems, but add them only because it's the 21st century.
#5
I would tell you how our business plan allows us to transform frustrated customers into huge profits, but that's a trade secret.
Or, on a less sarcastic note - texture (bumpiness) can add a lot to the visual effect of an object. Consider an orange or an old man. By having a bit of bumpiness on the MB surfaces, we can show off some snazzy normal mapped, specular effects. Snazzy visual effects make better screenshots, typically make better sales. Nevermind that when we contracted to do the game, they strongly hinted that they would like snazzy graphics in it...
We don't think it makes a difference in gameplay, and the people that have playtested it don't, either.
Maybe you should stick to Super Monkey Ball? Marble Blast is a distinct and seperate game.
09/11/2004 (9:42 am)
Actually, although it may not be obvious, we hired Pat solely because of his ability to torment and confuse those who use his projects. Although Microsoft is not yet aware of it, the X-Box Marble Blast port is designed to infuriate and frustrate all who use it.I would tell you how our business plan allows us to transform frustrated customers into huge profits, but that's a trade secret.
Or, on a less sarcastic note - texture (bumpiness) can add a lot to the visual effect of an object. Consider an orange or an old man. By having a bit of bumpiness on the MB surfaces, we can show off some snazzy normal mapped, specular effects. Snazzy visual effects make better screenshots, typically make better sales. Nevermind that when we contracted to do the game, they strongly hinted that they would like snazzy graphics in it...
We don't think it makes a difference in gameplay, and the people that have playtested it don't, either.
Maybe you should stick to Super Monkey Ball? Marble Blast is a distinct and seperate game.
#6
I just find it shocking that Pat dismisses both my GameCube and my PowerBook G4 with Mac OS X as mid-1990s technology.
I wrote the Marble Blast gold time guide at http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/mac/file/marble_blast_gold.txt, reviewed many games in the past, and I am a programmer myself (including over 40 games - although admittedly not 3D), just to let you guys know that I based my concern on something I know a little about.
Anywho, I guess I should wait for the full game to come out before dismissing everything with a single screenshot. Just make sure you guys keep all the shortcuts I found intact. ;)
09/11/2004 (10:06 am)
I know bump maps make things look better - I am saying its better to go for function over form when physics is a very large part of the game. You're right about no one play-testing it yet, so I guess I will have to withhold my final verdict until the game comes out.I just find it shocking that Pat dismisses both my GameCube and my PowerBook G4 with Mac OS X as mid-1990s technology.
I wrote the Marble Blast gold time guide at http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/mac/file/marble_blast_gold.txt, reviewed many games in the past, and I am a programmer myself (including over 40 games - although admittedly not 3D), just to let you guys know that I based my concern on something I know a little about.
Anywho, I guess I should wait for the full game to come out before dismissing everything with a single screenshot. Just make sure you guys keep all the shortcuts I found intact. ;)
#7
Gameplay wise I don't think there is a problem with having the bumpmapped surfaces. If the surface stays consistent then player will associate it as a 'smooth' surface they can roll over. The only problem would be if they also use a surface that has floor actually does become bumpy. Stuff like this you can never really judge from a screenshot; it's something you have to play.
09/12/2004 (11:31 am)
Michael, I'm pretty sure he's talking about Torque, not your GameCube or your computer. Marble Blast is build off technology from the mid 1990's.Gameplay wise I don't think there is a problem with having the bumpmapped surfaces. If the surface stays consistent then player will associate it as a 'smooth' surface they can roll over. The only problem would be if they also use a surface that has floor actually does become bumpy. Stuff like this you can never really judge from a screenshot; it's something you have to play.
#8
09/12/2004 (4:23 pm)
Didn't they use the Torque engine for the XBox too? It only took them a week to get the PC version running on the XBox, so I don't think it was a complete engine rewrite.
#9
If that was the case then they would have to put Bump mapping in regardless of anything else due to the requirements from MS .
just a thought
Regards
Kenneth
09/17/2004 (1:31 pm)
Hmm isn't it a requirement by Microsoft that games on the xbox use all or most of the features of the console before they are accepted by them . (an MS guy visting uni was saying something about it ) If that was the case then they would have to put Bump mapping in regardless of anything else due to the requirements from MS .
just a thought
Regards
Kenneth
#10
Michael, I'm sorry I came off as such a jerk. (Though I will not disagree that I am one on occasion) I've lived, breathed and eaten Marble Blast for a few months now, and that was one of the two types of feedback I do not take well. (The other is comparison to Monkey Ball in a negative manner.)
The reason that we did the bump mapping is very simple. We have a constant, consistant platform with which to run our game. If it runs at N fps on our machine, it will run at N fps on everyone's. We had accesss to pixel and vertex shaders, and we based our code off of the demo we did for GDC 2003, which was a decked out Marble Blast with 2.0 shaders.
I completely agree that graphics are fluff...to an extent. The graphics need to fit the game, and when you actually sit down and play Marble Blast on the Xbox you will see that the graphics work very well with the look of the game. Do not worry about the gameplay, the gameplay is just as solid, if not MORE solid than the PC version. Play with the gamepad gives us way more control over the marble itself, and Mark and myself have spent weeks tweeking input. I did 4 versions of the basic movement code before I was satisfied.
Brian Ramage did the work on the graphics and basically worked on only graphics while we concentrated on gameplay. We could only have Brian for a short time as he needed to get back on TSE, but, as you can see, I think that it is one of the best-looking Xbox games on the market.
By all means, give it a try. I don't think that you will find the graphics at all distracting. In fact they make the game look truely beautiful.
09/17/2004 (6:24 pm)
Eul0gy, no, that is not the case.Michael, I'm sorry I came off as such a jerk. (Though I will not disagree that I am one on occasion) I've lived, breathed and eaten Marble Blast for a few months now, and that was one of the two types of feedback I do not take well. (The other is comparison to Monkey Ball in a negative manner.)
The reason that we did the bump mapping is very simple. We have a constant, consistant platform with which to run our game. If it runs at N fps on our machine, it will run at N fps on everyone's. We had accesss to pixel and vertex shaders, and we based our code off of the demo we did for GDC 2003, which was a decked out Marble Blast with 2.0 shaders.
I completely agree that graphics are fluff...to an extent. The graphics need to fit the game, and when you actually sit down and play Marble Blast on the Xbox you will see that the graphics work very well with the look of the game. Do not worry about the gameplay, the gameplay is just as solid, if not MORE solid than the PC version. Play with the gamepad gives us way more control over the marble itself, and Mark and myself have spent weeks tweeking input. I did 4 versions of the basic movement code before I was satisfied.
Brian Ramage did the work on the graphics and basically worked on only graphics while we concentrated on gameplay. We could only have Brian for a short time as he needed to get back on TSE, but, as you can see, I think that it is one of the best-looking Xbox games on the market.
By all means, give it a try. I don't think that you will find the graphics at all distracting. In fact they make the game look truely beautiful.
#11
And yes, Marble Blast does look awesome and I am glad to hear the bump mapping is not distracting. :)
Hey, one more thing - did you guys change the floor colors in some of those levels? In the teaser screenshot (the one with the G5 iMac in it too), it looks like the wavy orange road is from Advanced 32 (Whirl) - but that level has a yellow floor! I ask more out of curiosity than anything else.
09/17/2004 (7:10 pm)
Ah, thank you Pat! I'm sorry as well for getting pissed off easily (I admit that it happens quite often). I've beaten Super Monkey Ball 2 and Marble Blast completely and I can tell those naysayers that they are definitely not the same game. The powerups, platform jumping, gem collecting, and freely-moving camera changes the dynamics 100%. (So yeah, Marble Blast is definitely not a cheap ripoff)And yes, Marble Blast does look awesome and I am glad to hear the bump mapping is not distracting. :)
Hey, one more thing - did you guys change the floor colors in some of those levels? In the teaser screenshot (the one with the G5 iMac in it too), it looks like the wavy orange road is from Advanced 32 (Whirl) - but that level has a yellow floor! I ask more out of curiosity than anything else.
#12
We are really just putting a lot of work into this game because it is the first indy Xbox game, our first Xbox game, and we really just want people to look at it and say, "Damn, that game is polished."
09/17/2004 (7:48 pm)
That is actually one of Alex's new levels called "The Road Less Traveled". (Before you ask, I don't know if/when those new levels will be up for download.) We had to cut a handfull of levels that we just didn't like, or that played really poorly on the Xbox (Tightrope was the worst). We are really just putting a lot of work into this game because it is the first indy Xbox game, our first Xbox game, and we really just want people to look at it and say, "Damn, that game is polished."
Torque 3D Owner Pat Wilson