Reselling?
by Stefan Geiger · in Torque Game Engine · 08/31/2004 (3:39 am) · 75 replies
I made some very interesting changes to the Torque Game Engine.
So, may I resell these changes to a licensee of the Torque Game Engine?
Greets
Stegei
So, may I resell these changes to a licensee of the Torque Game Engine?
Greets
Stegei
#42
Not that it hasn't been done before- it has. However, this guy's saying how it's better than TGE and TSE, but all it is is TGE with DX9 and shaders? I applaud the effort, and if he's got screenshots, then by all means show them and detail what's different/better about his version of the engine.
On the other hand, it's been a long time since he's promised all this, and then presumably getting an email from GG saying he can't sell the engine like he wants to(it's pretty much stated in the EULA that you can't make a derivative engine and sell that, which is what he was talking about doing- for orders of magnitude more money, no less).
So, I'm skeptical. I'd be much less skeptical if I saw some screens of the engine, even in a early stage of development. So, Stefan, let's dispense with the talk of how much money you want to make off the engine and see what it can do. If it looks good and the feature list is good, I'll change my mind without problem.
@ Shannara: I've been around for a while, and I'm not going anywhere, much less tagged as a troll for telling it like I (and others) see it, so don't concern yourself with my opinions.
12/30/2004 (4:46 pm)
I'm getting a kick out of this, really. Not one screenshot, and someone looking to write their own engine and sell it for a six-figure sum?Not that it hasn't been done before- it has. However, this guy's saying how it's better than TGE and TSE, but all it is is TGE with DX9 and shaders? I applaud the effort, and if he's got screenshots, then by all means show them and detail what's different/better about his version of the engine.
On the other hand, it's been a long time since he's promised all this, and then presumably getting an email from GG saying he can't sell the engine like he wants to(it's pretty much stated in the EULA that you can't make a derivative engine and sell that, which is what he was talking about doing- for orders of magnitude more money, no less).
So, I'm skeptical. I'd be much less skeptical if I saw some screens of the engine, even in a early stage of development. So, Stefan, let's dispense with the talk of how much money you want to make off the engine and see what it can do. If it looks good and the feature list is good, I'll change my mind without problem.
@ Shannara: I've been around for a while, and I'm not going anywhere, much less tagged as a troll for telling it like I (and others) see it, so don't concern yourself with my opinions.
#43
All I said was that people shouldnt freak out because the dude was throwing prices out there and that I thought that his price sucked. So how is that not showing my age.
12/30/2004 (6:14 pm)
Jase bud,All I said was that people shouldnt freak out because the dude was throwing prices out there and that I thought that his price sucked. So how is that not showing my age.
#44
I started developing this engine about 4 years ago for a RTS. Because I didnt intended to sell the engine, I didnt care about that statement int the EULA.
But since the engine modifications got on such a large scale, I decided to do so.
I will post here some pics as well as some details about the engine, as soon as possible (I hope in the next few days), so that you can see what we have done and why this engine should be better than TSE.
Edit:
@Charlie Malbaurn
I dont think Jase means you, he means Adam DeGrandis with this message:
:) that was pretty funny. nice one charles.
12/30/2004 (6:22 pm)
Im not the only one developing this engine. Currently, there are 3 other programmers working on that plus one guy developing the level editor.I started developing this engine about 4 years ago for a RTS. Because I didnt intended to sell the engine, I didnt care about that statement int the EULA.
But since the engine modifications got on such a large scale, I decided to do so.
I will post here some pics as well as some details about the engine, as soon as possible (I hope in the next few days), so that you can see what we have done and why this engine should be better than TSE.
Edit:
@Charlie Malbaurn
I dont think Jase means you, he means Adam DeGrandis with this message:
:) that was pretty funny. nice one charles.
#45
Who do you think your customer base is going to be? Certainly not Indy Devs at $100k a pop.
Even assuming for a moment that the statements regarding it being better than TSE ever will be (which is an extremely difficult claim to make since TSE is at milestone 1 out of 5 right now) are true, at that price point it doesn't even matter what it's relation is to TSE.
What matters is it's relation to commercially licensed engines such as Unreal, etc. that target that price point range. Who cares if it's better than TSE, it has to be better (or at least close) to what is provided by your competition--and TSE would certainly not be competition at that price point, regardless of which of the two engines are "better".
12/30/2004 (6:29 pm)
I can't help but wonder if you've done any marketing analysis for the most current target price point you seem to be heading towards.Who do you think your customer base is going to be? Certainly not Indy Devs at $100k a pop.
Even assuming for a moment that the statements regarding it being better than TSE ever will be (which is an extremely difficult claim to make since TSE is at milestone 1 out of 5 right now) are true, at that price point it doesn't even matter what it's relation is to TSE.
What matters is it's relation to commercially licensed engines such as Unreal, etc. that target that price point range. Who cares if it's better than TSE, it has to be better (or at least close) to what is provided by your competition--and TSE would certainly not be competition at that price point, regardless of which of the two engines are "better".
#46
A comparison for example with the Vision Engine (http://www.vulpine.de) would be better, since a Vision license cost about 120k$
I've been working with that engine for a time, and would say, that our engine is better than the Vision engine, at least in at some points.
Performance, ScriptingLanguage Support, TerrainEngine, Physics are just some examples which are better in our engine.
12/30/2004 (6:47 pm)
You're right, comparing these two engines isnt very sensible. But comparing with UnrealEngine is as stupid as comparing with TSE, because UE is again in an other price category. ( An UE2 license costs 750k$).A comparison for example with the Vision Engine (http://www.vulpine.de) would be better, since a Vision license cost about 120k$
I've been working with that engine for a time, and would say, that our engine is better than the Vision engine, at least in at some points.
Performance, ScriptingLanguage Support, TerrainEngine, Physics are just some examples which are better in our engine.
#47
Do you have any screenshots or a product website that we can look at?
12/30/2004 (7:43 pm)
This has become unimportant since you decided to rewrite it, but I am curious about your problems with the Torque license requirements. It would be okay if you only sold your product to licensed Torque developers, right? The $500 to license Torque is nothing compared to $100k, so it shouldn't be a problem to require that your customers buy Torque first. Is it really worth the time of rewriting that functionality to save $500 per license?Do you have any screenshots or a product website that we can look at?
#48
But exactly what is it about the Physics, performance, scripting, and terrain that make it better? That's the question people have been asking, and the responses are more that a little vague. As a matter of fact, at this point, the only feature that seems specific is the price.
Stephen has a good point about price: If your work is so good, and already based on the TGE, why not sell it to the GG community as a code pack for like $200(more or less), and then use that to fund your effort at creating your own engine which you want to aim at the middle-tier?
Vulpine and the rest also cost that much because they have a support structure in place that's bigger than 4 developers. I know that Lithtech has a mailing list and several levels of support from email to training classes. I'm sure you guys understand that if you sell a half dozen licenses, you'll be supporting them pretty heavily, especially if it's your own engine, untested in the "wild". And that's where TGE/TSE has your engine beat. I know that developing my game on TGE is good because it's been tested on a dozen games before mine over the years, and it's stable because of that. So here, the price/performance link is not nearly as valid as it used to be.
12/30/2004 (8:17 pm)
Quote:Performance, ScriptingLanguage Support, TerrainEngine, Physics are just some examples which are better in our engine.
But exactly what is it about the Physics, performance, scripting, and terrain that make it better? That's the question people have been asking, and the responses are more that a little vague. As a matter of fact, at this point, the only feature that seems specific is the price.
Stephen has a good point about price: If your work is so good, and already based on the TGE, why not sell it to the GG community as a code pack for like $200(more or less), and then use that to fund your effort at creating your own engine which you want to aim at the middle-tier?
Vulpine and the rest also cost that much because they have a support structure in place that's bigger than 4 developers. I know that Lithtech has a mailing list and several levels of support from email to training classes. I'm sure you guys understand that if you sell a half dozen licenses, you'll be supporting them pretty heavily, especially if it's your own engine, untested in the "wild". And that's where TGE/TSE has your engine beat. I know that developing my game on TGE is good because it's been tested on a dozen games before mine over the years, and it's stable because of that. So here, the price/performance link is not nearly as valid as it used to be.
#49
12/30/2004 (8:51 pm)
Screenshots???
#50
To the developers of this engine. There is no real competition at the moment for a state-of-the-art engine available to the indie community apart from the developing TSE. It sounds like it has potential in both the indie and professional community. But you can do what you want with the engine.
12/30/2004 (10:20 pm)
Patience Josh :)To the developers of this engine. There is no real competition at the moment for a state-of-the-art engine available to the indie community apart from the developing TSE. It sounds like it has potential in both the indie and professional community. But you can do what you want with the engine.
#51
But only if this supports Linux,Mac...
And btw, i agree with Teds 1st statement...
12/30/2004 (11:12 pm)
IMHO, this is where GG should buy these changes for $5000 and give it back to the community... rather than letting him sell it... But hey... only my opninionBut only if this supports Linux,Mac...
And btw, i agree with Teds 1st statement...
#52
Although, one thing I felt I should point out to the general audience is a $100-500 Engine Price Range and a $500,000-$1,000,000 Engine hardly qualify as being in the same market and user base, and are hence hard to compare because the end-users are completely different with completely different expectations in getting what they pay for, being end-user support, upgrades, toolset, functionality, etc.
:)
Anyone who sells $1m engines will most likely be selling to publishers who own development studios, or wealthy independent development studios (because there are so many...)....it's kind of like apples and oranges. So I hardly see this is as a GG Tech vs. the World kind of arguement, it's different stuff.
Personally, I'm more happy with the "indie" model because instead of having a publisher like Eidos snap up 5 licenses for Unreal for $5 mil and forcing the same tired and un-original developers to pump out the same crap in order to turn a profit on guaranteed sales...Rather saturate the market with low-priced proven tech in order to find that gem that will eventually surface, although you'll like get a bunch of dead-bulbs along the way, but thats to be expected. :-)
That's more of an opinion however so people won't agree with me there.7
Also, in regards to Stefan wanting to sell the tech for over $500k, and I have no way to back this up, but it seems you may have a little trouble trying to convince a company to pay that much or more money without a proven title already launched on the technology, it's kind of a numbers game (risk vs. safety) when your involved in that much money, so be sure to spend a lot of time on a very polished tech demo which shows off everything.
12/30/2004 (11:51 pm)
I'm also curious to see some screenshots or videos or something, even if early, sounds cool.Although, one thing I felt I should point out to the general audience is a $100-500 Engine Price Range and a $500,000-$1,000,000 Engine hardly qualify as being in the same market and user base, and are hence hard to compare because the end-users are completely different with completely different expectations in getting what they pay for, being end-user support, upgrades, toolset, functionality, etc.
:)
Anyone who sells $1m engines will most likely be selling to publishers who own development studios, or wealthy independent development studios (because there are so many...)....it's kind of like apples and oranges. So I hardly see this is as a GG Tech vs. the World kind of arguement, it's different stuff.
Personally, I'm more happy with the "indie" model because instead of having a publisher like Eidos snap up 5 licenses for Unreal for $5 mil and forcing the same tired and un-original developers to pump out the same crap in order to turn a profit on guaranteed sales...Rather saturate the market with low-priced proven tech in order to find that gem that will eventually surface, although you'll like get a bunch of dead-bulbs along the way, but thats to be expected. :-)
That's more of an opinion however so people won't agree with me there.7
Also, in regards to Stefan wanting to sell the tech for over $500k, and I have no way to back this up, but it seems you may have a little trouble trying to convince a company to pay that much or more money without a proven title already launched on the technology, it's kind of a numbers game (risk vs. safety) when your involved in that much money, so be sure to spend a lot of time on a very polished tech demo which shows off everything.
#53
As I told you, I'll try to knock together a couple of screenshots and some more specific details about the features.
@Eric Lavigne
12/31/2004 (1:14 am)
There is currently one title beeing developed with the engine, a 3D RPG.As I told you, I'll try to knock together a couple of screenshots and some more specific details about the features.
@Eric Lavigne
Quote:I am curious about your problems with the Torque license requirements. It would be okay if you only sold your product to licensed Torque developers, right?No, unfortunately not. This was my original idea, but it is stated as forbidden in the EULA.
#54
You need a more special EULA for derived products of the engine.
I could be wrong however, if I am someone please speak up.
EDIT: You are wrong. Jeff Tunnell GG
12/31/2004 (3:11 am)
Stefan: You should talk to one of the PR guys. The EULA is about creating games, not modifying the game engine and selling that off. You need a more special EULA for derived products of the engine.
I could be wrong however, if I am someone please speak up.
EDIT: You are wrong. Jeff Tunnell GG
#55
Either way they (the 4 of them) expect to remove/rewrite the Torque code and release the engine around April. That means from Sep 01, 2004 to April 2005 they are capible of work that is beyond my ability. (not saying much. Have 2 kids and a day job :-) )
12/31/2004 (4:11 am)
I really can't see him saying "this is a 100K addon to a $100 dollar engine." I don't think he would sell very many copies that way. As a buyer that would just "feel wrong" to me. Or did you mean they would sell it as a new engine with GG getting a cut of the profits?Either way they (the 4 of them) expect to remove/rewrite the Torque code and release the engine around April. That means from Sep 01, 2004 to April 2005 they are capible of work that is beyond my ability. (not saying much. Have 2 kids and a day job :-) )
#56
12/31/2004 (5:08 am)
Quote:Either way they (the 4 of them) expect to remove/rewrite the Torque code and release the engine around April.Dirty rewrites are flat out wrong. Legal or not, they are wrong.
#57
12/31/2004 (5:56 am)
@Erik: To get it out by April, it would be worse than a "dirty rewrite" methinks... They'd have to be just flat out copying huge chunks of TGE. 
#58
"Tell - Dawn of a Legend" had it's news item updated as of today...
The site features some very Torquesque looking screenies:
Screenshots
1st Screen!!! August 23rd
Don't miss this DivX Video, which features Matrix 3 music!!!!
.. and here are some screens from the "Weed Indoor Engine"!!!:
Shot #1 (October 2nd)
Shot #2 (October 2nd)
Shot #3 (December 9th)
... that were pulled from this thread (with some very new commentary in German from Mr. Geiger): Weed Indoor Engine Forum Thread
Note that this may only be guilt by association... and not reflect the current state of this awesome engine!!!!
12/31/2004 (6:31 am)
Google yields this: GODS"Tell - Dawn of a Legend" had it's news item updated as of today...
The site features some very Torquesque looking screenies:
Screenshots
1st Screen!!! August 23rd
Don't miss this DivX Video, which features Matrix 3 music!!!!
.. and here are some screens from the "Weed Indoor Engine"!!!:
Shot #1 (October 2nd)
Shot #2 (October 2nd)
Shot #3 (December 9th)
... that were pulled from this thread (with some very new commentary in German from Mr. Geiger): Weed Indoor Engine Forum Thread
Note that this may only be guilt by association... and not reflect the current state of this awesome engine!!!!
#59
12/31/2004 (8:12 am)
Lol Josh, you are too much. Happy New Year! :) 
#60
12/31/2004 (8:16 am)
Isn't "Gathering of Developers" already the name of another company????
Torque Owner Shannara