TSE Demo disapointment
by Jacob Dankovchik · in General Discussion · 08/22/2004 (5:01 am) · 25 replies
I downloaded the TSE demo a while back, and when i noticed it had normal maps in the data files, right away i got very excited because i the high-detail effects you can get with them. However when i ran TSE, i was rather disapointed... The normal maps dispalyed in TSE didn't really show what i was expecting at all, and this was a minor set back for me. Nothing too severe though.
Then last night i decided maybe the normal map support doesn't suck in torque, the demonstration just doesn't show them well. So, i setup my own test, and was totally blown away! Turns out, that IS the case. So for anyone interested, i'll post the two iamges for you, and explain the test performed.
Now, first i used a skin file from doom 3 from a monster called a mancubus. Notice in the skin its strictly color, no shading of any sort. In TSE i replaced one of the floor textures with this:
Nice color detail, but no lighting, so if you were to apply that, it would look very bland. So i replaced a floor texture with that, also replaced the floors normal map with the normal map of the mancubus skin.. I was VERY satisfied with my end result:
Now, i feel THAT shows the power of the normal maps MUCH more. I feel GG sould perhaps make a better attempt at shaowin off this awesome feature, it would excite people MUCH more for TSE. Not only does it bring awesome looks to your textures and models, but saves a crap load of time from not having to shade any detail on your skin, just color away!
Anyhow, hope you all enjoyed this.. ;) I know i sure did when i first saw it!
Then last night i decided maybe the normal map support doesn't suck in torque, the demonstration just doesn't show them well. So, i setup my own test, and was totally blown away! Turns out, that IS the case. So for anyone interested, i'll post the two iamges for you, and explain the test performed.
Now, first i used a skin file from doom 3 from a monster called a mancubus. Notice in the skin its strictly color, no shading of any sort. In TSE i replaced one of the floor textures with this:
Nice color detail, but no lighting, so if you were to apply that, it would look very bland. So i replaced a floor texture with that, also replaced the floors normal map with the normal map of the mancubus skin.. I was VERY satisfied with my end result:
Now, i feel THAT shows the power of the normal maps MUCH more. I feel GG sould perhaps make a better attempt at shaowin off this awesome feature, it would excite people MUCH more for TSE. Not only does it bring awesome looks to your textures and models, but saves a crap load of time from not having to shade any detail on your skin, just color away!
Anyhow, hope you all enjoyed this.. ;) I know i sure did when i first saw it!
#22
08/27/2004 (1:32 pm)
Hmm.. What do you mean scripting alone? Like, getting that effect thru scripts, or applying it thru scipts? Not sure about the applying part, but no, as ar as i know u cant make it thru scripts. What you have to do is make a really well defined version of a model, then generate a normal map from it. You then apply the normal map onto the low detail version of the model or texture and u get that effect.. hope that helped.. ;)
#23
08/27/2004 (1:40 pm)
What Jacob said means, that this is all done by material definitions done in script (-> materials.cs), however you surely need a model that is suited for the effect.
#24
I tried one of the free normal mappers and it also required a second UV channel for the normal map that has independant mapping from the regual diffuse map. there are 3 types of normal map, tangent being the most flexible but expensive. World and object space normal maps can work on our DX7 engine, haven't had luck with Tangent though.
Another problem is that you can't mirror your textures as every face in your geometry needs to have unique UV's. so you cant map one arm and weld it onto the opposite side of your characters torso.
You also need higher resolution normal maps to get any detail in the bumps. So allthough the technology looks fantastic, it may not be the most viable tech for a small indie game and puts a lot of extra work on the shoulders of your art team.
Just pointing out some of the problems involved with using this technology for indie games distributed over the web. where small download size is a pretty big factor in your success. Allthough broadband is getting faster :)
08/27/2004 (1:55 pm)
You also need to be able to render a normal map, there are a coupl eof free tools that work ok, one other problem I had with normal maps in our engine was that Nvidia and ATI coudn't agree on a standard. So they have opposite Y. o one of them has Green representign positive Y and the other green having negative Y. This means that you need 2 normal maps depending on what hardware your players are using, unles theres a way to invert Y easily in code?I tried one of the free normal mappers and it also required a second UV channel for the normal map that has independant mapping from the regual diffuse map. there are 3 types of normal map, tangent being the most flexible but expensive. World and object space normal maps can work on our DX7 engine, haven't had luck with Tangent though.
Another problem is that you can't mirror your textures as every face in your geometry needs to have unique UV's. so you cant map one arm and weld it onto the opposite side of your characters torso.
You also need higher resolution normal maps to get any detail in the bumps. So allthough the technology looks fantastic, it may not be the most viable tech for a small indie game and puts a lot of extra work on the shoulders of your art team.
Just pointing out some of the problems involved with using this technology for indie games distributed over the web. where small download size is a pretty big factor in your success. Allthough broadband is getting faster :)
#25
08/27/2004 (5:41 pm)
Well so far i've found normal maps to be very easy to handle, and very agreeable with my modeler. So far we've had no problems in generating them, and results are everything i could expect them to be. My modeler usually likes to do good detail to his models, so this works out really well, cause this way it wont goto waiste. And normal maps make skinning MUCH easier IMO, because you no longer have to color muscles on your skin, as seen from my above example. Put your colors in, model and map the muscles, engine does the rest with ur normal map.. Nothin could be better i think! :D
Torque Owner Michael Hense
yes... i too am under the hypnotic trance of the shader bumpmapping gods after just purchasing D3 :)
as a matter of fact, i spend most of my time wandering around the levels, marvelling at the graphics...
... exactly as i'm doing with the screenshots above.
yes, it is great to see that the TSE is capable of such stuff...
HOOOOORAHHHHH!!!
hey, a quick question... can some of this power be accessed via scripting alone?
thanks...
Good Thread :)
--Mike