Looking for someone to compile builds on Mac
by John Vanderbeck · in Torque Game Engine · 08/20/2004 (9:34 am) · 22 replies
Hello all,
I'm looking for someone willing to help out the Mayhem 2090 team by compiling Macintosh builds of the game and tools. The compensation for such would be the ability to see and play early builds as well as you will be given a full copy of the game whenever its finally completed. Mayhem 2090 uses a modified Torque engine as well as the Torque Shader Engine. Anyone who helps out will need to unfortunately be both a Torque and TSE owner. At least i'm pretty sure that would be required in order to comply with the license.
If you are interested in helping out please reply here or email me at jvanderbeck@novusdelta.com.
I'm looking for someone willing to help out the Mayhem 2090 team by compiling Macintosh builds of the game and tools. The compensation for such would be the ability to see and play early builds as well as you will be given a full copy of the game whenever its finally completed. Mayhem 2090 uses a modified Torque engine as well as the Torque Shader Engine. Anyone who helps out will need to unfortunately be both a Torque and TSE owner. At least i'm pretty sure that would be required in order to comply with the license.
If you are interested in helping out please reply here or email me at jvanderbeck@novusdelta.com.
#2
08/20/2004 (9:52 am)
What i'm offering isn't going to change i'm afraid. I have nothing else TO offer. I'm not asking someone to develop the Mac game, i'm askign someone to take the source code and press the compile button.
#3
I'd just like to get an idea - I'm nowhere near that point yet. =)
08/20/2004 (10:08 am)
Nicolas - as someone who in the (distant) future may be interested in having someone do a MAC build (port?), what kind of payment would you consider fair?I'd just like to get an idea - I'm nowhere near that point yet. =)
#4
Sascha
08/20/2004 (10:19 am)
I can compile it on the MAC, no biggie. Just that i don't have the TSE yet. If i don't need the TSE i am all game. Still having trouble with maps and mac so i will not spend the money on TSE at this point.Sascha
#5
It's never going to be that simple : you can't profile the code yourself, obviously, since you don't have a Mac.
You can't take advantage of the Apple specific GL extensions, 'cause, well you don't have a Mac.
You can't even start to know how to speed up the app on MacOS X, since, again, you don't have a Mac to be able to verify your code.
As for what would be fair : a full share on Mac royalties at the very least, depending on the invidual's involvement.
It also raises another point (and that's not directed to you John in any personal way), about encouraging the exploitation of skilled workers, be them programmers or artists : offering a free copy from a commercial game for what is a full time position in game studios (build meister) is not fair, or good for any of us.
08/20/2004 (11:05 am)
No, John, you can't be seriously thinking that's all there is to it, you have more experience than that, don't you ?It's never going to be that simple : you can't profile the code yourself, obviously, since you don't have a Mac.
You can't take advantage of the Apple specific GL extensions, 'cause, well you don't have a Mac.
You can't even start to know how to speed up the app on MacOS X, since, again, you don't have a Mac to be able to verify your code.
As for what would be fair : a full share on Mac royalties at the very least, depending on the invidual's involvement.
It also raises another point (and that's not directed to you John in any personal way), about encouraging the exploitation of skilled workers, be them programmers or artists : offering a free copy from a commercial game for what is a full time position in game studios (build meister) is not fair, or good for any of us.
#6
I'm extremely busy right now, but I'm hoping that things will settle down in a couple of weeks. If you need any porting, I'm still extremely green with OS X development since I've mainly been using Final Cut Pro, Lightwave, Boris FX, Soundtrack, and DVD Studio Pro. I've played around a bit in XCode, but not enough to "know" my way around. I still mainly use my Tablet PC to modify and merge the codebase. I'm planning on delving much deeper, but not until school is in session and my labs are running smoothly.
What's your timeline on needing compilation?
08/20/2004 (11:10 am)
TSE doesn't currently support OpenGL, unless you've modified it to do so yourself. So any TSE rendering is Windows only right now.I'm extremely busy right now, but I'm hoping that things will settle down in a couple of weeks. If you need any porting, I'm still extremely green with OS X development since I've mainly been using Final Cut Pro, Lightwave, Boris FX, Soundtrack, and DVD Studio Pro. I've played around a bit in XCode, but not enough to "know" my way around. I still mainly use my Tablet PC to modify and merge the codebase. I'm planning on delving much deeper, but not until school is in session and my labs are running smoothly.
What's your timeline on needing compilation?
#7
I do but I think you misinderstand what i'm lookign for.
I'm not asking or wanting ANY of that. Torque is designed to be cross platform, and we've not touched any code that would break that. All i'm wanting someone to do is take our builds and compile them to generate a Mac version. Torque is supposed to be already cross platform. That's something I paid for and one of the reasons I chose Torque. Ok TSE isn't cross platform but thats ok because we haven't started using TSE yet, and won't be for a while. It is my hope that by the time we finally get around to "officially" integrating TSE it will be cross platform.
In other words i'm really not asking for any development assistance on the Mac side other than taking what should already be a cross platform build and having it built on Mac.
08/20/2004 (11:21 am)
Quote:
No, John, you can't be seriously thinking that's all there is to it, you have more experience than that, don't you ?
I do but I think you misinderstand what i'm lookign for.
Quote:
It's never going to be that simple : you can't profile the code yourself, obviously, since you don't have a Mac.
You can't take advantage of the Apple specific GL extensions, 'cause, well you don't have a Mac.
You can't even start to know how to speed up the app on MacOS X, since, again, you don't have a Mac to be able to verify your code.
I'm not asking or wanting ANY of that. Torque is designed to be cross platform, and we've not touched any code that would break that. All i'm wanting someone to do is take our builds and compile them to generate a Mac version. Torque is supposed to be already cross platform. That's something I paid for and one of the reasons I chose Torque. Ok TSE isn't cross platform but thats ok because we haven't started using TSE yet, and won't be for a while. It is my hope that by the time we finally get around to "officially" integrating TSE it will be cross platform.
In other words i'm really not asking for any development assistance on the Mac side other than taking what should already be a cross platform build and having it built on Mac.
#8
The people working on Mayhem 2090 are doign so for an eventual percentage of profits. If I was wanting a Mac programmer to develop a mac build in tandem then I would be more than willing to do the same thing for them. When all i'm wanting is someone to take what should already be a completely viable mac build (since Torque is cross platform) and have them compiple it, i'm sorry but I don't see it as all that big of a deal. I personally would be more than happy to compile a version of Torque under windows for someone for nothing, not even a promise to have a copy of the game. Its something that takes so little of my effort in the same situation. In fact I HAVE done it for several people in the past.
08/20/2004 (11:25 am)
Quote:
It also raises another point (and that's not directed to you John in any personal way), about encouraging the exploitation of skilled workers, be them programmers or artists : offering a free copy from a commercial game for what is a full time position in game studios (build meister) is not fair, or good for any of us.
The people working on Mayhem 2090 are doign so for an eventual percentage of profits. If I was wanting a Mac programmer to develop a mac build in tandem then I would be more than willing to do the same thing for them. When all i'm wanting is someone to take what should already be a completely viable mac build (since Torque is cross platform) and have them compiple it, i'm sorry but I don't see it as all that big of a deal. I personally would be more than happy to compile a version of Torque under windows for someone for nothing, not even a promise to have a copy of the game. Its something that takes so little of my effort in the same situation. In fact I HAVE done it for several people in the past.
#9
And yes, I'm aware of what you mean John, but for a commercial game (which is what you're talking about since you mention a free copy ;)), it's just not going to cut it.
You're free to ignore that, of course, but it's that notion that you can just compile a mac build, and ship that that got to me (plus the little rant connection, which has nothing to with you or you having "bad" intentions, I'm not questioning your motives)
Profiling on PC and Mac of the same codebase does NOT give the same results (in as so far as you get reproducible results on one platform, etc.), the bottlenecks are most often not in the same spots, and a fix for PC done with portable code might cripple perf on Mac and vice versa
And on it goes with what I already mentioned above.
Of course, if you really think that all is needed is someone to push the compile button (which it won't : they will have to build custom project files for your project, won't they ? :)), well sure...
I'm warning you that this won't cut it for a commercial title, and that in all likelyhood you might end up with something that only runs on certain versions of MacOS X.
Please, don't take my word for it, ask around :)
08/20/2004 (12:24 pm)
I'll venture out to say that not a single shipped tge title that has a mac version didn't need substantial work for MacOS X (or Linux). And yes, I'm aware of what you mean John, but for a commercial game (which is what you're talking about since you mention a free copy ;)), it's just not going to cut it.
You're free to ignore that, of course, but it's that notion that you can just compile a mac build, and ship that that got to me (plus the little rant connection, which has nothing to with you or you having "bad" intentions, I'm not questioning your motives)
Profiling on PC and Mac of the same codebase does NOT give the same results (in as so far as you get reproducible results on one platform, etc.), the bottlenecks are most often not in the same spots, and a fix for PC done with portable code might cripple perf on Mac and vice versa
And on it goes with what I already mentioned above.
Of course, if you really think that all is needed is someone to push the compile button (which it won't : they will have to build custom project files for your project, won't they ? :)), well sure...
I'm warning you that this won't cut it for a commercial title, and that in all likelyhood you might end up with something that only runs on certain versions of MacOS X.
Please, don't take my word for it, ask around :)
#10
08/20/2004 (12:28 pm)
Yes you have some points there but you are looking so far into the future lol. We aren't even NEAR the point where we're going to be optimizing anything. By the time that rolls around i'll probably have set up a Mac and a Linux machine in the lab so that I can do it all myself. Right now i'm talking short term just so that I can get builds to team members who are working on Macs. I have 2 artists that are interested in helping out with the development of the game but they use Macs.
#11
Unless you've modified the source code for your game, they should be able to use that executable with your own scripts and assets.
08/20/2004 (3:22 pm)
Would it not be possible to give those artists the Mac version of the Torque demo, or get them to download it?Unless you've modified the source code for your game, they should be able to use that executable with your own scripts and assets.
#12
Dont know if this will help you are not but we are planning on getting the next version of Game Beavers compiled on a mac. How much of your game can be done in script vs engine code? The Beaver Patrol exe file is free for anyone to use in their game and it will have alot of new features. We plan on moving to the TSE as soon as we finish the next release and we have several developers that have bought the TSE license.
What are you looking to add feature wise? Maybe we can squeeze enough in to get you rolling on a mac build of the Beaver Patrol exe... at least for development and testing of artwork.
08/20/2004 (3:37 pm)
John,Dont know if this will help you are not but we are planning on getting the next version of Game Beavers compiled on a mac. How much of your game can be done in script vs engine code? The Beaver Patrol exe file is free for anyone to use in their game and it will have alot of new features. We plan on moving to the TSE as soon as we finish the next release and we have several developers that have bought the TSE license.
What are you looking to add feature wise? Maybe we can squeeze enough in to get you rolling on a mac build of the Beaver Patrol exe... at least for development and testing of artwork.
#13
No because we have modified the engine.
@Britton
That sounds doable. The main thing is our shadowing and lighting code. I really need to have that so the artists can see things properly. Maybe I can get my hands on the codebase and add that stuff to it? Essentially its improved shadowing, corrected shadows, stencil shadow support, and some lighting fixes.
08/20/2004 (4:31 pm)
@Wysadry No because we have modified the engine.
@Britton
That sounds doable. The main thing is our shadowing and lighting code. I really need to have that so the artists can see things properly. Maybe I can get my hands on the codebase and add that stuff to it? Essentially its improved shadowing, corrected shadows, stencil shadow support, and some lighting fixes.
#14
Wow, it sure is great to work together. That was our next step after beta 1.5. Looks like we may be able to work in Tandem. I'll get cracking on the mac build monday night here at work then.
08/20/2004 (4:55 pm)
@John, yeah you bet. Thats a deal. Grab the GB code base... I have a link on how to how patch the head here.... there are a few issues with it, as it is alpha code. But we do have a mac used for testing here with OSX on it. I'm going to grab eclipse and see what can be done with our little test mac. As a double bonus if you get TSE running with the GB code base that would easily count as a worth contribution you are in as a GB co-owner and get the rights to everything we have.Wow, it sure is great to work together. That was our next step after beta 1.5. Looks like we may be able to work in Tandem. I'll get cracking on the mac build monday night here at work then.
#15
I'll be looking through the forums on how to compile on mac... something I've needed to do for a long time. If you feel like it we can continue to work together on a common code base. The GB version of the TGE engine is what I'm using for all my games. If you have stuff you'd like to keep seperate let me know and we can organize a way to do a seperate build.
Great stuff and good luck with the TSE. I dont think I'll have time to work on the TSE for a few weeks so this is a great head start for me too. Plus doing a mac build is necessary for our long range plans. over 50% of the current indie revenue seems to be coming from mac these days. (they have very few games ya know)
08/20/2004 (5:00 pm)
@John, Here are the instructions on pacthing the TGE head with the GB code base.I'll be looking through the forums on how to compile on mac... something I've needed to do for a long time. If you feel like it we can continue to work together on a common code base. The GB version of the TGE engine is what I'm using for all my games. If you have stuff you'd like to keep seperate let me know and we can organize a way to do a seperate build.
Great stuff and good luck with the TSE. I dont think I'll have time to work on the TSE for a few weeks so this is a great head start for me too. Plus doing a mac build is necessary for our long range plans. over 50% of the current indie revenue seems to be coming from mac these days. (they have very few games ya know)
#16
08/20/2004 (5:03 pm)
Stefan Rampp is back for the next two weeks so I expect some amazing stuff pretty soon. I'm hoping we can get the octree in with some other performance stuff. Should work just as well on the mac too.
#17
08/20/2004 (5:13 pm)
I see you have already signed up John... you are member number 80 at GB. I really need to go through our assets and post all our new members / owners
#18
08/20/2004 (5:36 pm)
AFter re-readingthe posts (David Blake's) it looks like some work will need to be done on open GL to get the TSE working on mac. Is this correct? I thought the TSE used open GL... I have not looked into it. David, maybe we could work with you on getting the TSE ported to OpenGL... I'm up for compiling the Beaver Patrol code base on mac and then testing the compile of the TSE integration. I can report any errors I run into.
#19
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=20052
Currently its step 8. in Milestone 1.
www.garagegames.com/mg/projects/tse/
08/20/2004 (5:49 pm)
Took a Look into it and found that openGL in the works:www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=20052
Currently its step 8. in Milestone 1.
www.garagegames.com/mg/projects/tse/
#20
Short Answer:
OpenGL support (and thus Mac and Linux support) will be implemented before the final version of TSE ships.
Long Answer:
The Early Adopters release of TSE is Windows only, as it relies heavilly on DirectX technology. The graphics layer is designed to be easily ported to other architectures, however, and OpenGL support is planned before the final release.
This decision is based on the fact that shader support is currently much more solid on DirectX, and the OpenGL shader spec is still in flux. Once a more solid spec is available, and TSE is further along in development, it will be ported to Mac and Linux.
GarageGames realizes the need for and value of a professional cross-platform game engine, and remains dedicated to platform-agnostic support of gamers and developers alike.
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5859
08/20/2004 (5:53 pm)
Ok here is the stuff:Short Answer:
OpenGL support (and thus Mac and Linux support) will be implemented before the final version of TSE ships.
Long Answer:
The Early Adopters release of TSE is Windows only, as it relies heavilly on DirectX technology. The graphics layer is designed to be easily ported to other architectures, however, and OpenGL support is planned before the final release.
This decision is based on the fact that shader support is currently much more solid on DirectX, and the OpenGL shader spec is still in flux. Once a more solid spec is available, and TSE is further along in development, it will be ported to Mac and Linux.
GarageGames realizes the need for and value of a professional cross-platform game engine, and remains dedicated to platform-agnostic support of gamers and developers alike.
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5859
Torque Owner Nicolas Quijano
Damn, I got a free copy of Orbz just for helping with an early Mac demo of Orbz1...
Yes, TGE license is a requirement for anyone to get access to the sourcecode. In your case, you also need someone who has a TSE license.
That, and the fact that a Mac version of any TGE game can be a lot more work that what people think, leads me to say you better change what you're offering :)
Good luck