3D Game Studio A6--Anyone Tried It?
by Bill "Black Manatee" Pomidor · in Artist Corner · 08/10/2004 (4:49 am) · 53 replies
I'm a TGE owner and I've been planning to upgrade to TSE, but before I make the big jump I've been checking the other engines again and I was kind of impressed with 3D Game Studio. I had tried previous versions and wasn't too impressed, but this latest build is more promising.
I've spent the past couple of months learning TGE, and quite frankly I've been a little frustrated by some troubles I've had with scripting integration and documentation. I'll be the first to admit that these problems are entirely my fault--I'm far better versed in Basic than C++, and I'm not the most organized person in the world either, which makes it a little difficult for me to keep track of all the objects and their scripts when building a complicated level. 3DGS includes both a simple model editor plus a standalone script editor that's laid out sort of like VisualStudio, offering a definition/example window plus a tree view of all the files linked with the current level and its objects. The definition/example/syntax window is a HUGE help for me, since I'm learning as I go along. I'm not aware of a feature like this in Torque, and finding definitions and syntax examples and usage contexts has been kind of hit-or-miss, depending on checking through the various tutorials, documents, and forum threads as well as the files from the various demo programs.
On the other hand, I don't really want to jump ship to 3DGS after having invested a couple of months (and almost $200) in TGE so far. The forum here at GG is very supportive and active, seemingly far more active than the one at 3DGS (not to mention the fact that many threads over there are apparently written in German, and my Deutsch isn't what it used to be in high school! :) ). Has anyone tried 3DGS and, if so, can they offer any comments regarding its strengths and weaknesses vs Torque (for things like scripting, level design, 3D engine speed, shader support, or whatever)? I'm going to spend ~$200 in the next month, either on TSE or 3DGS, and I sure don't want to make the wrong decision. I'm really impressed with Torque, but we're trying to design an ambitious FPS/strat game and it's going to require a lot of complex scripting: cutscenes, resource-dependent unit creation, and the programming of the actions and AI of NPC's, whose behavior will depend on both the players and other NPC's.
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I've spent the past couple of months learning TGE, and quite frankly I've been a little frustrated by some troubles I've had with scripting integration and documentation. I'll be the first to admit that these problems are entirely my fault--I'm far better versed in Basic than C++, and I'm not the most organized person in the world either, which makes it a little difficult for me to keep track of all the objects and their scripts when building a complicated level. 3DGS includes both a simple model editor plus a standalone script editor that's laid out sort of like VisualStudio, offering a definition/example window plus a tree view of all the files linked with the current level and its objects. The definition/example/syntax window is a HUGE help for me, since I'm learning as I go along. I'm not aware of a feature like this in Torque, and finding definitions and syntax examples and usage contexts has been kind of hit-or-miss, depending on checking through the various tutorials, documents, and forum threads as well as the files from the various demo programs.
On the other hand, I don't really want to jump ship to 3DGS after having invested a couple of months (and almost $200) in TGE so far. The forum here at GG is very supportive and active, seemingly far more active than the one at 3DGS (not to mention the fact that many threads over there are apparently written in German, and my Deutsch isn't what it used to be in high school! :) ). Has anyone tried 3DGS and, if so, can they offer any comments regarding its strengths and weaknesses vs Torque (for things like scripting, level design, 3D engine speed, shader support, or whatever)? I'm going to spend ~$200 in the next month, either on TSE or 3DGS, and I sure don't want to make the wrong decision. I'm really impressed with Torque, but we're trying to design an ambitious FPS/strat game and it's going to require a lot of complex scripting: cutscenes, resource-dependent unit creation, and the programming of the actions and AI of NPC's, whose behavior will depend on both the players and other NPC's.
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
#22
Been using 3DGS since earlyer versions, version 6 is really terrific... but it doesn't work in LOWER SYSTEMS!!! Torque does!
I explain: i was developing a HUGE RPG engine with 3DGS. Really neat, if i do say so myself: i had coded, in 3DGS script:
1-icon-based inventory system, with dynamic pause
2-save-load system with auto-screenshots
3-levers that unlocked doors and activated mesh-animated sequences
4-mesh-animated doors, that allowed ANY kind of modeled door
5-different types of keys openning different types of doors
6-mesh-modeled based ELEVATORS. They are ANIMATION based, so you can guess how cool they got!
7-simple AI monsters... very buggy, but they spawned gold and items accordingly to either sequenced scripts or levels
8-easy-to-implement item existence system. You got an item on the level? They won't respawn (unless you want!)
9- weapons, armors, boots and shields dynamically atached to player body - easy inventory-paused system dynamically changed equipament
10- Sequence scripts that changed NPC dialogue, camera positions, triggers, object-spawning system.... and so on, i can't even remember!
Why de hell i switched to Torque? Simple: i didn't.
3DGS started to show a LOT of bugs on its early version, specialy on non-window XP systems! Win98, 2000, NT... it crashed a lot!! They created a TON of patches, but usually they didn't work.
Alessandro knows of what i'm talking about... right? ;D
I liked torque mission editor. I have to admit: even with quark limitations, i rather use torque in scenario-related usefullnes(i only got better results in 3DST with mesh-based maps). Torque is still new to me, but i got the feeling it may solve my problems. I already working on the implementation of all my early achievements in 3DGST to Torque. Not easy, but i just have to tidy my organization schedules a lot - and now i can work in the implementation of torque characteristics as i did in 3dGST.
I have in torque: advanced mission changing, simple teleport, Full bsp-map implement control, i can put on some objects, have items counters in a gui... of course, everthing very basic... but i work on.
What i really like is Torque Forums helps - they help! :P
Gonna stick to Torque for now, let's see what happens...
04/15/2005 (9:25 am)
All right, i HAVE to post in this thread! :9Been using 3DGS since earlyer versions, version 6 is really terrific... but it doesn't work in LOWER SYSTEMS!!! Torque does!
I explain: i was developing a HUGE RPG engine with 3DGS. Really neat, if i do say so myself: i had coded, in 3DGS script:
1-icon-based inventory system, with dynamic pause
2-save-load system with auto-screenshots
3-levers that unlocked doors and activated mesh-animated sequences
4-mesh-animated doors, that allowed ANY kind of modeled door
5-different types of keys openning different types of doors
6-mesh-modeled based ELEVATORS. They are ANIMATION based, so you can guess how cool they got!
7-simple AI monsters... very buggy, but they spawned gold and items accordingly to either sequenced scripts or levels
8-easy-to-implement item existence system. You got an item on the level? They won't respawn (unless you want!)
9- weapons, armors, boots and shields dynamically atached to player body - easy inventory-paused system dynamically changed equipament
10- Sequence scripts that changed NPC dialogue, camera positions, triggers, object-spawning system.... and so on, i can't even remember!
Why de hell i switched to Torque? Simple: i didn't.
3DGS started to show a LOT of bugs on its early version, specialy on non-window XP systems! Win98, 2000, NT... it crashed a lot!! They created a TON of patches, but usually they didn't work.
Alessandro knows of what i'm talking about... right? ;D
I liked torque mission editor. I have to admit: even with quark limitations, i rather use torque in scenario-related usefullnes(i only got better results in 3DST with mesh-based maps). Torque is still new to me, but i got the feeling it may solve my problems. I already working on the implementation of all my early achievements in 3DGST to Torque. Not easy, but i just have to tidy my organization schedules a lot - and now i can work in the implementation of torque characteristics as i did in 3dGST.
I have in torque: advanced mission changing, simple teleport, Full bsp-map implement control, i can put on some objects, have items counters in a gui... of course, everthing very basic... but i work on.
What i really like is Torque Forums helps - they help! :P
Gonna stick to Torque for now, let's see what happens...
#23
If you are primarily an artist or level-designer kind of guy, Or you're game is strictly an interior FPS, you might get rolling a whole lot quicker using 3DGS...
BUT...
When all is said and done, the fully functioning multiplayer features and the power of the terrain editor make Torque a better choice in the long run!
(Though I wish I could import my WED models backwards into Quark or Torque... then I'd have the best of both worlds!)
04/18/2005 (12:37 pm)
The 3DGS Wed editor is great; "Interiors" are easier and more intuitive to create in 3DGS than using the clumsier Quark tool ...If you are primarily an artist or level-designer kind of guy, Or you're game is strictly an interior FPS, you might get rolling a whole lot quicker using 3DGS...
BUT...
When all is said and done, the fully functioning multiplayer features and the power of the terrain editor make Torque a better choice in the long run!
(Though I wish I could import my WED models backwards into Quark or Torque... then I'd have the best of both worlds!)
#24
04/18/2005 (12:45 pm)
WED lets you save to a .MAP. The alpha of map2dif should allow you to compile them to DIF's as long as they are Quake/2/3/Half-Life compliant. You may have to place entities and lights in Quark, though. I'm not sure.
#25
04/18/2005 (1:30 pm)
The landscape stuff of TGE would have been a LOT better if you could get the "standard" four views there too (top, left, front and ingame). The ability to play and edit "simultaneously" gets tired pretty fast. I really hope the upcoming editor won't be an all indoor thing.
#26
There isn't even a concept of four views when it comes to terrain maps--terrain is simply a heightmap with textures painted on it.
04/18/2005 (1:53 pm)
Terrain editing and model editing are so different as to not even be in the same ball league, much less the same ballpark--Torque Constructor isn't going to involve editing terrain unless Matt and others are pulling off some major philosphy changes.There isn't even a concept of four views when it comes to terrain maps--terrain is simply a heightmap with textures painted on it.
#27
1 Making indoor, brushbased stuff, typically in Quark.
2 Painting and fiddling with heightmaps.
3 Setting up pathing, triggers and whatnot.
I would much prefer to be able to look at my map topdown with all its buildings, triggers etc and at the same time viewing through the camera. Fiddling with gameplay stuff require just as much precision as indoor modeling so I see no reason why the same approach could not be used for terrains. After all, when artists in Maya/Max/Cinema work with landscapes do they switch off the four views? Of course the don't!
I do understand that making an editor useful for booth indoor and outdoor work is a huge undertaking, but a man can dream can he not...
04/18/2005 (3:15 pm)
Making maps in TGE come in three parts:1 Making indoor, brushbased stuff, typically in Quark.
2 Painting and fiddling with heightmaps.
3 Setting up pathing, triggers and whatnot.
I would much prefer to be able to look at my map topdown with all its buildings, triggers etc and at the same time viewing through the camera. Fiddling with gameplay stuff require just as much precision as indoor modeling so I see no reason why the same approach could not be used for terrains. After all, when artists in Maya/Max/Cinema work with landscapes do they switch off the four views? Of course the don't!
I do understand that making an editor useful for booth indoor and outdoor work is a huge undertaking, but a man can dream can he not...
#28
10/31/2005 (1:03 pm)
I recently came from using 3DGS to useing torque, and it seems to be a mojor upgrade. Even if you get the version of 3dgs that is around $1000 it doesnt have all the features that torque shader engine will have, or really any more than regular torque. Also this is one of the real traps, and you cant tell by looking at their site, but they come out with a new edition and stop updating the last one about every year or two, and you have to pay again to use it, the price isn't discounted that much to get the new version if you have the old one, and often they just add basic features. Also i found it to be glitchier than torque, Ive found some quirks with torque, but some of the ones with 3dgame studio were just flat out confusing, like how in some of my programs the mouse would stop working if i went to fullscreen, no matter how much i searched, stripped down and rewrote the code it kept happening, i actually scrapped a project id put over 100 hours into because of it, the actuall implementation of the project anyway. The only advantage it had is that its easier to learn to use. But thats a trade for being less flexible. The main reason i dont like it is because of the price thing, i bought the $299 version and 4 months later they quit updating that one (which still had errors) and came out with a newer version in which theyd added physics, and even if i upgraded to the new one it was limited to one physics object, Unless i upgraded to the top version thats around $1000.
#29
Back to the matter at hand--I really appreciate all the input regarding 3DGS versus TGE. I've had TGE for a year or so, and while I like its stability and its world/terrain designer (the lack of a top-down view notwithstanding), I am also coming to game design as a level/mission designer--someone who really enjoys creating good AI enemies and wily computer foes as opposed to relying mostly on multiplayer combat/contest/competition. I came to game design from fiction writing (mystery novels, mostly), so it feels more natural for me to create story-based scenarios. The seemingly easier scripting tools that 3DGS has appealed to me--but I'm sensing a definite downside to 3DGS as well!
Ideally, I'd like to stick with TGE--but I'm afraid I'm having a very hard time developing the type of "open-ended" mission/campaign design I'd like to make. Specifically, my biggest project to date involved a total-conversion Battlezone 2 mod called "Forgotten Enemies" (www.bzuniverse.com/forum/). Recreating that kind of experience in Torque has proven to be far more difficult than I ever imagined. For those who don't know about it, Battlezone is a combination action/strategy game that makes you a battlefield general and allows you to play in the same mission you're commanding other units in (much like squad-based warfare, but using vehicles AND men, and up to 100 total units).
Battlezone's biggest plus is that I can script a series of open-ended obstacles/goals and it's up to the player to achieve those goals in whatever manner he/she sees fit. Scripting is much like a long BASIC program, using loops, branching, numerous simultaneous routines and subs, and variables that can be passed back and forth, allowing you to trip the player(s) up in ways that I'm having trouble envisioning through the Torque engine. On the other hand, it's been over a year since I took a serious look at the TGE, and there seem to be a lot of new tools and add-ins out there, so I need to catch up. And that, after all, is one of the biggest strengths of TGE--the way so many people are active and lend a hand!
12/10/2005 (8:11 am)
This has given me a lot of guidance, folks! I had taken a bit of time away from game design in order to start a new business doing 3D models of homes for architects/designers/custom builders. For that, I do my modeling in Caligari (trueSpace) and mostly export to VRML for viewing on-line, or else render animated fly-thrus or view-locked panoramas. If you're curious, my own house (under construction) is posted on my site, at www.3DVirtualHomes.net. If anyone needs a building modeler, that's something I've gotten decent at (though the limitations on game engines are far more stringent than VRML limits)!Back to the matter at hand--I really appreciate all the input regarding 3DGS versus TGE. I've had TGE for a year or so, and while I like its stability and its world/terrain designer (the lack of a top-down view notwithstanding), I am also coming to game design as a level/mission designer--someone who really enjoys creating good AI enemies and wily computer foes as opposed to relying mostly on multiplayer combat/contest/competition. I came to game design from fiction writing (mystery novels, mostly), so it feels more natural for me to create story-based scenarios. The seemingly easier scripting tools that 3DGS has appealed to me--but I'm sensing a definite downside to 3DGS as well!
Ideally, I'd like to stick with TGE--but I'm afraid I'm having a very hard time developing the type of "open-ended" mission/campaign design I'd like to make. Specifically, my biggest project to date involved a total-conversion Battlezone 2 mod called "Forgotten Enemies" (www.bzuniverse.com/forum/). Recreating that kind of experience in Torque has proven to be far more difficult than I ever imagined. For those who don't know about it, Battlezone is a combination action/strategy game that makes you a battlefield general and allows you to play in the same mission you're commanding other units in (much like squad-based warfare, but using vehicles AND men, and up to 100 total units).
Battlezone's biggest plus is that I can script a series of open-ended obstacles/goals and it's up to the player to achieve those goals in whatever manner he/she sees fit. Scripting is much like a long BASIC program, using loops, branching, numerous simultaneous routines and subs, and variables that can be passed back and forth, allowing you to trip the player(s) up in ways that I'm having trouble envisioning through the Torque engine. On the other hand, it's been over a year since I took a serious look at the TGE, and there seem to be a lot of new tools and add-ins out there, so I need to catch up. And that, after all, is one of the biggest strengths of TGE--the way so many people are active and lend a hand!
#30
it's clunky as hell..
its a kind o false economy.. 3dgs seems easier til you try to do something complex and meet max limits, bugs etc ...whereas ..torque is relatively hard to start of with, but once you get your head round the logic of it your ok, and your no longer fighting it....
12/10/2005 (8:50 am)
3d gamestudio.. euugghh ... the mdl exporter that doesnt allow bones.. the level editor which is one of the things i found half decent that sometimes doesnt scrub the cache meaning you gotta restart app for no good reason.. it's clunky as hell..
its a kind o false economy.. 3dgs seems easier til you try to do something complex and meet max limits, bugs etc ...whereas ..torque is relatively hard to start of with, but once you get your head round the logic of it your ok, and your no longer fighting it....
#31
Implement the Advanced Camera resource to get your camera on the right track.
12/10/2005 (9:50 am)
Bill "Black Manatee" PomidorImplement the Advanced Camera resource to get your camera on the right track.
#32
01/10/2006 (3:34 pm)
I have been using 3dgs for about 5 years. Like any engine it has its ups and downs. Its alot easier to get started with than Torque but it all boils down to three things.....Coding, artwork and time. If you are an excellent programmer you can do wonders with 3dgs. It supports shaders and I have seen some impressive demos. The physics are decent and also have seen good Physics with Newton, a free plug in. If you cant code a lick and want to learn and make games I would recommend 3dgs....If you rock I might recommmend Torque simply due to the fact that it has the capability of running on consoles, macs and PC's and Linux systems. 3dgs can only run on PC's using windows which is a major drawback to using this software. I am developing a game with 3dgs and I love it...but thats probably because Im not a code and Im the level designer, texture artist and also make 3d models.... So 3dgs is very "Artist" Friendly, for example the level building tool WED, is very easy to use and even a novice can make some pretty impressive levels with practice. Like I said both engines in my opinion are very good...but if your really serious about going bigtime quickly and you have the time, money and talent....Torque might be a better choice. Thats not bad for an avid 3dgs user...I just gave you guys MAD PROPS! GS out....
#33
Take every engine, evaluate your market, your experience, and MAKE YOUR GAME. If you are more concerned about engine features than your game's reality, then you'll have a problem no matter what engine you use. If someone takes Adventure Construction Set (1984) and makes a better game than you, then you have no right to complain about what it uses. Amd they may already have made it...
If engines are your biggest concern, then work with DOOM3 or Source. If your game is "good enough" for whatever the powers that be deam to be a commercial release, then you will get it. If it wasn't, then it was your commercial choice.
If you don't make the cut for whatever the criteria is for the current commercial retail shelf games is, then you will have to do something about it. If you've made a mod and don't make it, you can get hired on a commercial team if your references are high enough...because your team work is exponential, which many people don't realize when they are starting out. Individuals are cool. Teams are key.
If you choose TGE/T2D/TSE/DarkBASIC/Blitz3D/BlitzMax/Nebula2/Irrlicht/Genesis3D/CrystalSpace/Whatever/ you will find that you have a lot of work to do. If out use Croteam's Sam2 engine or Unreal 3, or Doom 3 or Source, you'll have a lot of work to do. The main requirements come down to how you want to propogate your team and our own abilities.
01/10/2006 (9:33 pm)
Everyone interested in TGE/etc vs 3DGs should read Steven's post. Just my comment since I like 3DGS, but I'm a huge Mac user and it doesn't support it. But I'm a huge programmer with TGE affiliations as well, good or bad depending on how much I suck. It is why I find Unity the 3DGS of the Mac world (without some major tools), but still not in the same realm as TGE in terms of compatability, testing, and (my personal) experience. And, yes, I am biased by my C++ experience, but it also let me work with C-Script which is extremely simple with my background (and I use .NET at my work so Unity was NO problem).Take every engine, evaluate your market, your experience, and MAKE YOUR GAME. If you are more concerned about engine features than your game's reality, then you'll have a problem no matter what engine you use. If someone takes Adventure Construction Set (1984) and makes a better game than you, then you have no right to complain about what it uses. Amd they may already have made it...
If engines are your biggest concern, then work with DOOM3 or Source. If your game is "good enough" for whatever the powers that be deam to be a commercial release, then you will get it. If it wasn't, then it was your commercial choice.
If you don't make the cut for whatever the criteria is for the current commercial retail shelf games is, then you will have to do something about it. If you've made a mod and don't make it, you can get hired on a commercial team if your references are high enough...because your team work is exponential, which many people don't realize when they are starting out. Individuals are cool. Teams are key.
If you choose TGE/T2D/TSE/DarkBASIC/Blitz3D/BlitzMax/Nebula2/Irrlicht/Genesis3D/CrystalSpace/Whatever/ you will find that you have a lot of work to do. If out use Croteam's Sam2 engine or Unreal 3, or Doom 3 or Source, you'll have a lot of work to do. The main requirements come down to how you want to propogate your team and our own abilities.
#34
There is a very good reason why we broke Torque out into T2D, TGE, and TSE--and it wasn't (completely anyway!) so we could get people to buy more products...it was because it's important to have your engine be the best it can be for the game to work, and the way we elected to do that was to make tools for you to use that are focused on their target market...not everything in one box, so to speak.
01/11/2006 (2:16 am)
David's words are very wise: use the right tool for the job, and most importantly the one that will provide the best capabilities for what you need, with your scope and skillset.There is a very good reason why we broke Torque out into T2D, TGE, and TSE--and it wasn't (completely anyway!) so we could get people to buy more products...it was because it's important to have your engine be the best it can be for the game to work, and the way we elected to do that was to make tools for you to use that are focused on their target market...not everything in one box, so to speak.
#35
All that being said, I've pretty much decided to go with both after all! I'm working on two VERY different projects:
1) A racing/exploration game for medical students where the challenge is to navigate various "courses" through the human nervous system (especially the brain and the base of the skull) in the shortest time possible. Massive exterior/interior levels are involved along with the ability to "power up" your ride en route through addition of features like enhanced radar/guidance, weaponry, "jump-jetting" ability, etc. Creating the necessary curvy anatomical features is a bit problemmatic, but I'm concentrating more on the challenges of the course and the names and sizes/distances of landmarks and pathways rather than rendering accuracy, at least for now. I'm counting on the timer and the multiplayer features to take players' minds off of the fact that the biological features don't look perfect. As an MD myself, I know how competitive med students are!
2) An interactive RPG-action type of game, largely single-player, which is mostly storyline-based and takes the player through a narrative that complements the mystery novel I'm finishing. I've published several novels and short stories in the U.S., and I'm planning to develop something that goes far beyond the old-fashioned action/adventure into something far more like an interactive movie (though without the expensive actors!). I realize that storyline-based games are supposedly dead, but I think there's room (especially on a small scale) for games that hook mystery fans and other readers who may not be traditional gamers but who could be enticed into a good story--provided there weren't a steep learning curve.
As you might have guessed, I'm using TGE for the racing game and 3DGS for the mystery game. Any suggestions or comments are of course welcome. I'll need to put a team together once the anatomy/racing prototype is finished, and I'll probably be posting more info on the mystery once I get into the guts of 3DGS...
Don't you wish there were 30 or 40 hours in a day!? :)
01/11/2006 (2:18 pm)
Very true and very helpful comments by all. I'm really appreciating the input, folks. As someone who came to Torque from a modder's perspective, I've found that modders are often "spoiled" by not having to necessarily see the guts of the engine--especially if they have someone on their team who'll help with DLL generation for mission/feature/interface adaptations (like we did)!All that being said, I've pretty much decided to go with both after all! I'm working on two VERY different projects:
1) A racing/exploration game for medical students where the challenge is to navigate various "courses" through the human nervous system (especially the brain and the base of the skull) in the shortest time possible. Massive exterior/interior levels are involved along with the ability to "power up" your ride en route through addition of features like enhanced radar/guidance, weaponry, "jump-jetting" ability, etc. Creating the necessary curvy anatomical features is a bit problemmatic, but I'm concentrating more on the challenges of the course and the names and sizes/distances of landmarks and pathways rather than rendering accuracy, at least for now. I'm counting on the timer and the multiplayer features to take players' minds off of the fact that the biological features don't look perfect. As an MD myself, I know how competitive med students are!
2) An interactive RPG-action type of game, largely single-player, which is mostly storyline-based and takes the player through a narrative that complements the mystery novel I'm finishing. I've published several novels and short stories in the U.S., and I'm planning to develop something that goes far beyond the old-fashioned action/adventure into something far more like an interactive movie (though without the expensive actors!). I realize that storyline-based games are supposedly dead, but I think there's room (especially on a small scale) for games that hook mystery fans and other readers who may not be traditional gamers but who could be enticed into a good story--provided there weren't a steep learning curve.
As you might have guessed, I'm using TGE for the racing game and 3DGS for the mystery game. Any suggestions or comments are of course welcome. I'll need to put a team together once the anatomy/racing prototype is finished, and I'll probably be posting more info on the mystery once I get into the guts of 3DGS...
Don't you wish there were 30 or 40 hours in a day!? :)
#36
Incidentally, I just got my "Advanced 3D GP-all-in-one," and I am very impressed. It helps a lot with some of the AI issues I was getting frustrated about, but I still am wondering whether anyone knows of a tool or library that centralizes some of the mission/AI/gameplay-related functions into more of a scriptable usage...
Anyway, here's my original question (hasn't gotten a reply yet on the other thread):
________________________
I've had TGE for about a year now and have been very impressed with the way things have evolved to become more newbie-friendly. I've used Finney's excellent "3D Game Programming All-In-One," as well as a lot of the excellent tutorials on-line (and I've just ordered Ken's sequel!).
However, I have to admit to being a little frustrated about some simple game-design issues--mainly because I can't find a lot of script operators/functions that seem like they would be in common use--especially with regard to objects and/or NPC's. For instance, I'm having a heck of a time finding a resource or TorqueScript command that simply checks the distance between the player and a given object or NPC (or another player) and returns the value. I've seen a suggestion about calculating vectors, but I had the impression that was for checking angles rather than distances. And I know you could calculate the x,y,z coordinates for both objects and subtract to compare, but the math involved would seem like an inefficient use of the script engine's processor resources--especially if you've got a lot of objects moving at once. I'd like to use this kind of command for triggering NPC interaction and also possibly for pathfinding--at least for some of the NPC's...
Other common commands, like getting an object to "track" a player or another object, or "freezing" the action in a game while a video plays (or getting the video to play on a certain trigger) also seem surprisingly complex. I know that there are work-arounds which can be created either in C++ or through creative use of some of the Script variables, but I was wondering if maybe there's a resource or list of variables/operators that I've missed in my travels through the TDN and the various tutorials/guides. I'm hoping that the Advanced 3DGPAIO book might be able to offer some pointers as well. But if anyone has any suggestions for me, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
~~Bill
01/11/2006 (7:55 pm)
I had a game-engine-related question which I posted at the beginner's web area, but it occurred to me that maybe somebody here might have some thoughts about it. So please forgive me for re-posting it here as well.Incidentally, I just got my "Advanced 3D GP-all-in-one," and I am very impressed. It helps a lot with some of the AI issues I was getting frustrated about, but I still am wondering whether anyone knows of a tool or library that centralizes some of the mission/AI/gameplay-related functions into more of a scriptable usage...
Anyway, here's my original question (hasn't gotten a reply yet on the other thread):
________________________
I've had TGE for about a year now and have been very impressed with the way things have evolved to become more newbie-friendly. I've used Finney's excellent "3D Game Programming All-In-One," as well as a lot of the excellent tutorials on-line (and I've just ordered Ken's sequel!).
However, I have to admit to being a little frustrated about some simple game-design issues--mainly because I can't find a lot of script operators/functions that seem like they would be in common use--especially with regard to objects and/or NPC's. For instance, I'm having a heck of a time finding a resource or TorqueScript command that simply checks the distance between the player and a given object or NPC (or another player) and returns the value. I've seen a suggestion about calculating vectors, but I had the impression that was for checking angles rather than distances. And I know you could calculate the x,y,z coordinates for both objects and subtract to compare, but the math involved would seem like an inefficient use of the script engine's processor resources--especially if you've got a lot of objects moving at once. I'd like to use this kind of command for triggering NPC interaction and also possibly for pathfinding--at least for some of the NPC's...
Other common commands, like getting an object to "track" a player or another object, or "freezing" the action in a game while a video plays (or getting the video to play on a certain trigger) also seem surprisingly complex. I know that there are work-arounds which can be created either in C++ or through creative use of some of the Script variables, but I was wondering if maybe there's a resource or list of variables/operators that I've missed in my travels through the TDN and the various tutorials/guides. I'm hoping that the Advanced 3DGPAIO book might be able to offer some pointers as well. But if anyone has any suggestions for me, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
~~Bill
#37
As for object tracking, look at the Advanced Camera resource and look at how the orbit camera works.
Those are a few thoughts off the top of my head. Not very clear or organized, but I also haven't quite worken up this morning (NyQuil is great for hitting the sack, but horrible when you have to function the next morning)
01/12/2006 (7:35 am)
Much of the game-specific logic you will have to code yourself, though resources like the laser resource can help determine some interesting pieces of the engine that (whether your game uses lasers or not) can be helpful in many other aspects. For examples of starting/stopping interactivity, look at the feature demo and sort through the different camera paths and scripts to move between features and areas and trigger other segments. From there, trigging the Theora control to render an in-game cinematic is pretty self-explanatory (the example is included in 1.4).As for object tracking, look at the Advanced Camera resource and look at how the orbit camera works.
Those are a few thoughts off the top of my head. Not very clear or organized, but I also haven't quite worken up this morning (NyQuil is great for hitting the sack, but horrible when you have to function the next morning)
#38
01/12/2006 (9:12 am)
I would also suggest you take a look at the "AIGuard" resource posted several months ago. It may need some cleanup for 1.4, but it demonstrates quite a bit of useful AI scripting.
#39
I have already posted my comments in an other thread about this matter
However Torque or 3DGS ?
My gut feeling, actually I am still...a Blitzer, is the following
- Torque is more powerful
- 3DGS is more flexible
I know that a lot of Torquer's would disagree
However if you go through 3DGS command list and Torque Classes \ methods you can not but agree with me
3DGS pre_built functions have definitly an higher degree of abstraction than Torque's methods even though it may be , up to a certain extent, just a matter of terminology, as I was suggested.
In any case It is evident that 3dgs has not been designed having a specific kind of game in mind
The claim that you can do everything in Torque , tweaking the engine, well in my opinion, is rather weak
Unless you are a guru, you normally expect your engine to be a black box
On the other hand I definitly prefer Torque programming language over 3DGS
If your project grows in size the over simplified 3dgs scripting language might really be a pain
I will use both
Already purchased 3dgs now I am going to buy Toruqe
07/21/2006 (1:24 pm)
HelloI have already posted my comments in an other thread about this matter
However Torque or 3DGS ?
My gut feeling, actually I am still...a Blitzer, is the following
- Torque is more powerful
- 3DGS is more flexible
I know that a lot of Torquer's would disagree
However if you go through 3DGS command list and Torque Classes \ methods you can not but agree with me
3DGS pre_built functions have definitly an higher degree of abstraction than Torque's methods even though it may be , up to a certain extent, just a matter of terminology, as I was suggested.
In any case It is evident that 3dgs has not been designed having a specific kind of game in mind
The claim that you can do everything in Torque , tweaking the engine, well in my opinion, is rather weak
Unless you are a guru, you normally expect your engine to be a black box
On the other hand I definitly prefer Torque programming language over 3DGS
If your project grows in size the over simplified 3dgs scripting language might really be a pain
I will use both
Already purchased 3dgs now I am going to buy Toruqe
#40
This is the only part of what you say I disagree with... Please understand, I am not trying to be insulting when I say this, but expecting your game engine to be a black box is amateur. There's nothing wrong with this at all, but the line is not guru/non-guru. Somebody that wishes to create games for a living should not expect a black box engine... at least, not if they are planning on being a coder.
07/21/2006 (1:38 pm)
Quote:you normally expect your engine to be a black box
This is the only part of what you say I disagree with... Please understand, I am not trying to be insulting when I say this, but expecting your game engine to be a black box is amateur. There's nothing wrong with this at all, but the line is not guru/non-guru. Somebody that wishes to create games for a living should not expect a black box engine... at least, not if they are planning on being a coder.
Torque Owner Adrian Tysoe
If I had to choose I'd choose torque for most things.