3D Game Studio A6--Anyone Tried It?
by Bill "Black Manatee" Pomidor · in Artist Corner · 08/10/2004 (4:49 am) · 53 replies
I'm a TGE owner and I've been planning to upgrade to TSE, but before I make the big jump I've been checking the other engines again and I was kind of impressed with 3D Game Studio. I had tried previous versions and wasn't too impressed, but this latest build is more promising.
I've spent the past couple of months learning TGE, and quite frankly I've been a little frustrated by some troubles I've had with scripting integration and documentation. I'll be the first to admit that these problems are entirely my fault--I'm far better versed in Basic than C++, and I'm not the most organized person in the world either, which makes it a little difficult for me to keep track of all the objects and their scripts when building a complicated level. 3DGS includes both a simple model editor plus a standalone script editor that's laid out sort of like VisualStudio, offering a definition/example window plus a tree view of all the files linked with the current level and its objects. The definition/example/syntax window is a HUGE help for me, since I'm learning as I go along. I'm not aware of a feature like this in Torque, and finding definitions and syntax examples and usage contexts has been kind of hit-or-miss, depending on checking through the various tutorials, documents, and forum threads as well as the files from the various demo programs.
On the other hand, I don't really want to jump ship to 3DGS after having invested a couple of months (and almost $200) in TGE so far. The forum here at GG is very supportive and active, seemingly far more active than the one at 3DGS (not to mention the fact that many threads over there are apparently written in German, and my Deutsch isn't what it used to be in high school! :) ). Has anyone tried 3DGS and, if so, can they offer any comments regarding its strengths and weaknesses vs Torque (for things like scripting, level design, 3D engine speed, shader support, or whatever)? I'm going to spend ~$200 in the next month, either on TSE or 3DGS, and I sure don't want to make the wrong decision. I'm really impressed with Torque, but we're trying to design an ambitious FPS/strat game and it's going to require a lot of complex scripting: cutscenes, resource-dependent unit creation, and the programming of the actions and AI of NPC's, whose behavior will depend on both the players and other NPC's.
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I've spent the past couple of months learning TGE, and quite frankly I've been a little frustrated by some troubles I've had with scripting integration and documentation. I'll be the first to admit that these problems are entirely my fault--I'm far better versed in Basic than C++, and I'm not the most organized person in the world either, which makes it a little difficult for me to keep track of all the objects and their scripts when building a complicated level. 3DGS includes both a simple model editor plus a standalone script editor that's laid out sort of like VisualStudio, offering a definition/example window plus a tree view of all the files linked with the current level and its objects. The definition/example/syntax window is a HUGE help for me, since I'm learning as I go along. I'm not aware of a feature like this in Torque, and finding definitions and syntax examples and usage contexts has been kind of hit-or-miss, depending on checking through the various tutorials, documents, and forum threads as well as the files from the various demo programs.
On the other hand, I don't really want to jump ship to 3DGS after having invested a couple of months (and almost $200) in TGE so far. The forum here at GG is very supportive and active, seemingly far more active than the one at 3DGS (not to mention the fact that many threads over there are apparently written in German, and my Deutsch isn't what it used to be in high school! :) ). Has anyone tried 3DGS and, if so, can they offer any comments regarding its strengths and weaknesses vs Torque (for things like scripting, level design, 3D engine speed, shader support, or whatever)? I'm going to spend ~$200 in the next month, either on TSE or 3DGS, and I sure don't want to make the wrong decision. I'm really impressed with Torque, but we're trying to design an ambitious FPS/strat game and it's going to require a lot of complex scripting: cutscenes, resource-dependent unit creation, and the programming of the actions and AI of NPC's, whose behavior will depend on both the players and other NPC's.
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
#2
Your suggestion about checking out the games is a good one, though--I'm definitely going to spend the next 30 days (my trial period with A6) checking out games from both camps--an arduous task ;) but I'll force myself through it!
Your comment on cross-platform support is right on target. At present, 3DGS is ONLY Windows-compatible--definitely something to bear in mind when you consider that Mac and especially Linux are relatively "small ponds" with regard to video games, compared with Windows, and so Torque gives indie developers a better shot at gaining some market share.
Anyone else have any thoughts on 3DGE vs TGE?
08/10/2004 (7:19 am)
Thanx, Trent! I agree that a high-grade modeler is key. I got the new Caligari GameSpace (v 1.5) and I'm pretty happy with it. Its interface is a little weird at first compared with "standard" 3D tools, but it becomes intuitive after a while. And luckily for me, it works with both Torque and 3DGE.Your suggestion about checking out the games is a good one, though--I'm definitely going to spend the next 30 days (my trial period with A6) checking out games from both camps--an arduous task ;) but I'll force myself through it!
Your comment on cross-platform support is right on target. At present, 3DGS is ONLY Windows-compatible--definitely something to bear in mind when you consider that Mac and especially Linux are relatively "small ponds" with regard to video games, compared with Windows, and so Torque gives indie developers a better shot at gaining some market share.
Anyone else have any thoughts on 3DGE vs TGE?
#3
Personally, I'd argue that TGE is a more mature codebase, and more powerful, although it's not as easy to get started with. I'm biased, of course. :)
08/11/2004 (7:30 pm)
Well, one thing to consider is that indie games tend to sell much more evenly across the three platforms than big budget ones... The mac market especially is well nigh starved for good games. :)Personally, I'd argue that TGE is a more mature codebase, and more powerful, although it's not as easy to get started with. I'm biased, of course. :)
#4
I used 3DGS for quite a while (since around april 2002), and altough it has a friendlier approach to developing (in my opinion, that is - I'm still kinda new at torque), and it features a very nice physics engine on its new version A6, the multiplayer support is DULL, to say the list. you can't code server/client separately, it HAS to be the **same** application, and ou direct code flow to server and client specific code by using a defined name ("SERVER", or "CLIENT), like this:
IFDEF SERVER
[statements];
IFDEF CLIENT
[statements];
And this, in my opinion, is a major downside for it. It's a major security breach for most online games to distribute the server software inside the client, and also very dumb, if you think about it. That was the major reason that made me switch to TGE, and so far, I'm happy with it, just having some trouble adapting, but it should be better soon :)
So, my advice is - if you're going online, don't use GS.
11/02/2004 (10:08 am)
TGE has a MAJOR advantage over 3d GameStudio: MNetworking and multiplayer support.I used 3DGS for quite a while (since around april 2002), and altough it has a friendlier approach to developing (in my opinion, that is - I'm still kinda new at torque), and it features a very nice physics engine on its new version A6, the multiplayer support is DULL, to say the list. you can't code server/client separately, it HAS to be the **same** application, and ou direct code flow to server and client specific code by using a defined name ("SERVER", or "CLIENT), like this:
IFDEF SERVER
[statements];
IFDEF CLIENT
[statements];
And this, in my opinion, is a major downside for it. It's a major security breach for most online games to distribute the server software inside the client, and also very dumb, if you think about it. That was the major reason that made me switch to TGE, and so far, I'm happy with it, just having some trouble adapting, but it should be better soon :)
So, my advice is - if you're going online, don't use GS.
#5
I just switched over to Torque.
I must say that the simply put, I like Torque better. It has less of a money grubbing feeling. What you get for 100-300 usd is more or less what you get with 1000usd for 3Dgs.
I think that both engines CAN do what ever you want, with enough time and coding but that 3D gamestudio has more max limits, like it simply not working on mac or linux.
thegamedesigner
11/26/2004 (4:28 am)
I have been using 3Dgamestudio for the past 2-3 years.I just switched over to Torque.
I must say that the simply put, I like Torque better. It has less of a money grubbing feeling. What you get for 100-300 usd is more or less what you get with 1000usd for 3Dgs.
I think that both engines CAN do what ever you want, with enough time and coding but that 3D gamestudio has more max limits, like it simply not working on mac or linux.
thegamedesigner
#6
all these are in Australian dolllars.
I would accept $300 for all of the above
email me at byronhobbs@iinet.net.au and ill get back to you
11/26/2004 (5:45 am)
If anyone wants a 3dgamestudio for $200 plus it would come with 3d sets of models for $50 and also for another $20 i would give you 5-6 3d gamestudios magazines which are very good value and explains almost everything about the 3d gamestudio.all these are in Australian dolllars.
I would accept $300 for all of the above
email me at byronhobbs@iinet.net.au and ill get back to you
#7
11/26/2004 (7:55 am)
Don't you have to contact Conitec to have them transfer the license? It seems to me that was part of the license when I purchased A5/6, and transferring it by simply selling it was illegal. Not that they would really pursue legal options, but they would kill the account for updates and other account resources and not allow the buyer to purchase A7 at a reduced fee...
#8
11/26/2004 (12:19 pm)
You sell it, then contact Conitec of the new owner and Conitec update their records. The new owner would recieve a confirmation email from Conitec. I have and still am using 3DGS Pro (not an easy version to give up ;)). And I have to say it is quite a good engine, I do use its editors to create interiors for Torque.
#9
The only issue I had with 3DGS was the fact that Multiplayer, as of V6.22 did not work at all. I, along with 4 or 5 long standing members of the 3DGS community spent 3 months trying to get it to work and created several test scenarios to prove that it did not work. I gave up and came to TGE. Maybe the network code has been corrected, they have released several updates since I sold my copy of 3DGS Pro.
Personally I find it a thousand times easier to use TGE once you get over the fear of C++. Torque Script is amazing and does not have many of the limits found in 3DGS. Speaking of limits there was another issue I had with 3DGS and that was how you are restricted by their architecture. IF their architecture does not support something you want to do then you are out of luck, with TGE you can just modify the source and be on your way to coding your unique project.
Good luck!
11/28/2004 (3:48 pm)
I had 3DGS Pro and I sold it. Conitec was okay with the sale and the transfer of the license. You do need to contact them both prior to the transfer and after the transfer to confirm the sale.The only issue I had with 3DGS was the fact that Multiplayer, as of V6.22 did not work at all. I, along with 4 or 5 long standing members of the 3DGS community spent 3 months trying to get it to work and created several test scenarios to prove that it did not work. I gave up and came to TGE. Maybe the network code has been corrected, they have released several updates since I sold my copy of 3DGS Pro.
Personally I find it a thousand times easier to use TGE once you get over the fear of C++. Torque Script is amazing and does not have many of the limits found in 3DGS. Speaking of limits there was another issue I had with 3DGS and that was how you are restricted by their architecture. IF their architecture does not support something you want to do then you are out of luck, with TGE you can just modify the source and be on your way to coding your unique project.
Good luck!
#10
Anyway, I'm hoping to have better luck with Torque. Wish me luck people! ;)
12/07/2004 (3:23 pm)
I have 3dGame Studio A5 commercial and A6 Commercial. I have to admit that I haven't spent an extreme amount of time with the engine...and I'm not very good with C++ (just a beginner to be honest); however, I do believe I've spent enough time with GStudio to comment on it's functionality. It is somewhat easy to get started with...but then you have constant lock-ups, you have to restart periodically because some things don't function, and now that they've been updating the A6, many of the scripts don't work. I tried going through many of the Tutorials only to find that many of them do NOT work. I also have a friend who is trying to use it and he is about to pull his hair out.Anyway, I'm hoping to have better luck with Torque. Wish me luck people! ;)
#11
12/08/2004 (5:31 am)
Good luck! 
#12
is the perfect statement for this...
the shortest and easiest path is often the most limited...
I don't consider easy to use as a "feature" .. it often is forshadowing of the limitations.
Torque is extremeley powerful... simply put as powerful as what you can imagine, if you put the effort into it you can do whatever you want in Torque... you get the freedom to modify whatever you want.
An analogy that I think is appropriate is freedom... you take away freedom and enforce strict laws, crime goes down, things run smoothly... but you can't do a huge ammount of things before, more importantly individual amibitions and choices...
you get freedom, you get the difficulties with that, dealing with the adaptation of such, with the bad sources etc etc...
a weird analogy but I think its accurate... with torque you've got a lot to learn, but there truly is no limit... and dont underestimate all the resources posted on this site that you can see once you become a member.
12/10/2004 (8:59 am)
"I'd argue that TGE is a more mature codebase, and more powerful, although it's not as easy to get started with."is the perfect statement for this...
the shortest and easiest path is often the most limited...
I don't consider easy to use as a "feature" .. it often is forshadowing of the limitations.
Torque is extremeley powerful... simply put as powerful as what you can imagine, if you put the effort into it you can do whatever you want in Torque... you get the freedom to modify whatever you want.
An analogy that I think is appropriate is freedom... you take away freedom and enforce strict laws, crime goes down, things run smoothly... but you can't do a huge ammount of things before, more importantly individual amibitions and choices...
you get freedom, you get the difficulties with that, dealing with the adaptation of such, with the bad sources etc etc...
a weird analogy but I think its accurate... with torque you've got a lot to learn, but there truly is no limit... and dont underestimate all the resources posted on this site that you can see once you become a member.
#13
12/28/2004 (10:25 am)
BAH... just do like I did and get both! :) I plan to make awesome games with Torque, but so so starter games with 3dgs... or use 3dgs as a sort of mock up game creator for what will be developed in torque in more detail.
#14
04/03/2005 (4:18 pm)
No do not get 3dgs i have it now and i hate i would never ever use it again it is a pain in th beeeeeeep I can not stand err. it's frustrating as hell to get stuff to look good in it if like jeff said if you want to make prototype fine just do not make a full game with tried it failed big i lost my shirt on it after paying for the comercial edition and paying for servers and paying bandwidth the game only lasted 2 mnths and i had to shut it down because not enough money to support the server. If you want to make decent freeware games go with it but dont hold your breath on it to make money it wont i am now working on purchasing TGE i am very impressed with it everything renders real nice and smooth unlike 3dgs no garoud shading for interiorers just terrian and entities and particle system easy to use but the out come gag me with a spoon looks like crap unless you want it to glow but for waterfalls and stuff like that err once again. hope this helps just dont waste your money on something that your not happy with but 3dgame studio does have majour releases to like baulders gate: dark alliance but the director got so fed with it was no more he was sorry for the choice he made and it's a quake II clone just changed things around abit and if you do buy it do not i repeat do not use the modeler that comes with it it horrible.
#15
Secondly if you buy it you are stuck in a windows server environment, and can ONLY develop games for windows, since Linux and Mac games are a fast growing market, with dedicated fans who will buy nearly anything that comes out, you would be missing out on a HUGE share of your potential market.
Thridly and IMHO most importantly, you have 0 source code to work with, you get a scripting language called CScript which looks and feels an awful lot like TorqueScript, but you can't extend the engine w/o writing custom DLLs and pluging them into a very archaic interface *yuck*
Foruthly, terrain rendering sucks really bad.
Finally even though 3DGS provides a complete end to end art pipeline, the only part thats worth a crud is thier WED or world Editor, the Model Editor just plain sucks.
Ideally you can get a complete multiplatform Art Pipeline with Torque now too, simply get TGE, Blender and Radiant (or if you want to be a little cheap skip radiant and wait a few more weeks for Torque Constructor to come out).
Hope that helps!
04/03/2005 (4:33 pm)
The only pro to 3DGS is the fact that it does have a better Art PipeLine than TGE. That said there are NUMEROUS drawbacks to using it, first of all even if you get the "Commercial Version" that is supposed to support an unlimited number of players in a multiplayer environment, our testing showed a max of 60 simulataneous connections and infact the engine began to hiccup at as little as 10.Secondly if you buy it you are stuck in a windows server environment, and can ONLY develop games for windows, since Linux and Mac games are a fast growing market, with dedicated fans who will buy nearly anything that comes out, you would be missing out on a HUGE share of your potential market.
Thridly and IMHO most importantly, you have 0 source code to work with, you get a scripting language called CScript which looks and feels an awful lot like TorqueScript, but you can't extend the engine w/o writing custom DLLs and pluging them into a very archaic interface *yuck*
Foruthly, terrain rendering sucks really bad.
Finally even though 3DGS provides a complete end to end art pipeline, the only part thats worth a crud is thier WED or world Editor, the Model Editor just plain sucks.
Ideally you can get a complete multiplatform Art Pipeline with Torque now too, simply get TGE, Blender and Radiant (or if you want to be a little cheap skip radiant and wait a few more weeks for Torque Constructor to come out).
Hope that helps!
#16
04/03/2005 (4:55 pm)
Not paying $5000 for a Radiant license is definitely being cheap. ;-)
#17
04/06/2005 (12:37 pm)
I have a6, not bad as long as you don't need much. 
#18
I think that may possibly count as THE longest sentence I have ever read.
But I'll take your advice and not buy 3DGS. =)
04/14/2005 (9:39 pm)
@Ryan: I think that may possibly count as THE longest sentence I have ever read.
But I'll take your advice and not buy 3DGS. =)
#19
04/14/2005 (9:45 pm)
Heh, Torque is cross platform, has made a slew of killer games with supportive multiplayer communities, and it goes on consoles ... what more could you ask for?
#20
I never told anyone this, but I invented the period. Also, out of pure nastyness, I've only allowed him to use 10 per day. He must have used most of them up already.
04/14/2005 (9:47 pm)
It's not Ryans fault.I never told anyone this, but I invented the period. Also, out of pure nastyness, I've only allowed him to use 10 per day. He must have used most of them up already.
Torque Owner Trent Reimer
I realise it's not the most "equal" way to compare engines but it works surprisingly well if you are analytical in your approach. You will inevitably see patterns which point to the overall capability of the engines - plus it can be fun. In fact I find it a lot more helpful than simply staring at the typical table view listing engine features side by side. It's about the way an engine deploys those features in real time.
Both engines render quite well, especially now that there is a lighting pack for Torque (which I realize is another expense but a very reasonable one) so that's a non-issue.
An integrated modeler in A6 can be a nice touch although it is definitely limited. If you wanted high grade models you would still need a separate, high quality modeling tool. Torque does not come with integrated modeling tools so you will need to choose a modeler for which there is an export tool. (3D Max, Maya, Blender, Lightwave, Milkshape all come to mind) This is another example of where things take longer to get going in Torque, part of its professional grade heritage. I for one would like to see a basic integrated modeler to assist beginners.
I personally chose Torque because it really shines in high action gameplay, especially multiplayer. I'm also partial to cross platform technology and Torque enables you to port to Mac and Linux as well which is really cool. But you're right that it is more work.