Transpar., Lumin., Reflectance--Do I Need TSE?
by Bill "Black Manatee" Pomidor · in Technical Issues · 08/02/2004 (2:18 pm) · 3 replies
Howdy--
I've been learning the TGE for about a month now, and I've gotten reasonably comfortable with much of the core game programming aspects--but I'm still having a lot of trouble importing textures so they look halfway realistic... :(
My biggest problem is that we're developing a game that calls for a lot of reflectance (gleaming metal) plus windows and lights. I had planned on eventually upgrading to TSE, but I had wanted to wait until I got a little more familiar with Torque first (and scraped up some $! ). Unfortunately, I can't seem to get even the slightest reflection/glow/polish on any of the metal surfaces which render great in both Milkshape and Caligari (gameSpace), let alone import any kind of translucent or transparent objects/textures.
I have attempted to follow the various tutorials and documentation instructions for importing transparent/translucent textures (making sure I have an alpha channel and so forth), but to no avail. So I'm wondering about a couple of things:
1) Can somebody recommend a place/site with either an example of a working Milkshape model with a transparent component incorporated into a Torque scene, or a more comprehensive explanation of how to import transparent/translucent textures (or textures with transparent "pieces") into Torque?
2) Is it actually *possible* to import such objects into an ordinary Torque (outdoor) scene--or is it a requirement that they be part of an indoor "scene" (e.g., map2dif, etc.)?
3) Is the importing of transparent/reflective objects "native" to the latest TGE version, or do I need to incorporate use one of the various patches or work-arounds that I've seen floating around the forum and resource areas? Most of them date to a couple of years ago, so I'm thinking that maybe Torque got around that particular hurdle since then...
4) Is all this more trouble than it's worth? I've been VERY impressed with the Shader Engine demo--but of course, without actually *trying* the software, I don't know if creating my cool surfaces in the TSE will be just as difficult and complicated as it is in the TGE (maybe even more so, since the TSE is in quasi-beta). Or, to put it another way--if I pony up the $ for the TSE, will I be able to *quickly* and *simply* import my gleaming metallic objects into the Torque world, or will I have to jump through a bunch of hoops again? By the way, I'm not talking about any seriously radical eye-candy--not even necessarily bump-mapping, and probably no multiple texture layers, just the ability to have a car, for instance, with a gleaming candy-apple-red finish, chrome bumpers, and a blue-tinted windshield. I've even considered "flushing" the $100 I've spent on the TGE and moving over to another of the game engines on the market, but Torque seems to have the most versatility out there for the kind of complex game we're creating.
I realize these questions may seem like no-brainers to many of the veteran "grease monkeys" at GarageGames, but the texture problems have been giving me fits. I've tried several different approaches, and it seems that the regular version of TGE is either very limited in terms of reflectance/luminance/transparency, or else implementation of those features is very complicated. Either that, or I haven't found the right tutorial yet.
I'd appreciate any help or pointers you can offer. Thanks very much in advance!
I've been learning the TGE for about a month now, and I've gotten reasonably comfortable with much of the core game programming aspects--but I'm still having a lot of trouble importing textures so they look halfway realistic... :(
My biggest problem is that we're developing a game that calls for a lot of reflectance (gleaming metal) plus windows and lights. I had planned on eventually upgrading to TSE, but I had wanted to wait until I got a little more familiar with Torque first (and scraped up some $! ). Unfortunately, I can't seem to get even the slightest reflection/glow/polish on any of the metal surfaces which render great in both Milkshape and Caligari (gameSpace), let alone import any kind of translucent or transparent objects/textures.
I have attempted to follow the various tutorials and documentation instructions for importing transparent/translucent textures (making sure I have an alpha channel and so forth), but to no avail. So I'm wondering about a couple of things:
1) Can somebody recommend a place/site with either an example of a working Milkshape model with a transparent component incorporated into a Torque scene, or a more comprehensive explanation of how to import transparent/translucent textures (or textures with transparent "pieces") into Torque?
2) Is it actually *possible* to import such objects into an ordinary Torque (outdoor) scene--or is it a requirement that they be part of an indoor "scene" (e.g., map2dif, etc.)?
3) Is the importing of transparent/reflective objects "native" to the latest TGE version, or do I need to incorporate use one of the various patches or work-arounds that I've seen floating around the forum and resource areas? Most of them date to a couple of years ago, so I'm thinking that maybe Torque got around that particular hurdle since then...
4) Is all this more trouble than it's worth? I've been VERY impressed with the Shader Engine demo--but of course, without actually *trying* the software, I don't know if creating my cool surfaces in the TSE will be just as difficult and complicated as it is in the TGE (maybe even more so, since the TSE is in quasi-beta). Or, to put it another way--if I pony up the $ for the TSE, will I be able to *quickly* and *simply* import my gleaming metallic objects into the Torque world, or will I have to jump through a bunch of hoops again? By the way, I'm not talking about any seriously radical eye-candy--not even necessarily bump-mapping, and probably no multiple texture layers, just the ability to have a car, for instance, with a gleaming candy-apple-red finish, chrome bumpers, and a blue-tinted windshield. I've even considered "flushing" the $100 I've spent on the TGE and moving over to another of the game engines on the market, but Torque seems to have the most versatility out there for the kind of complex game we're creating.
I realize these questions may seem like no-brainers to many of the veteran "grease monkeys" at GarageGames, but the texture problems have been giving me fits. I've tried several different approaches, and it seems that the regular version of TGE is either very limited in terms of reflectance/luminance/transparency, or else implementation of those features is very complicated. Either that, or I haven't found the right tutorial yet.
I'd appreciate any help or pointers you can offer. Thanks very much in advance!
#2
So, being a small indie wannabe, I'm stuck with Caligari which--though importing into Torque is problemmatic so far--I've been very happy with. Thank you for clarifying the DIF versus DTS issue--didn't realize that DTS supported it by default. So, the conversations about translucency were apparently work-arounds designed at getting translucency to work in DIF. That's a relief.
As for the trees, the shiny torque guy, and the buggy, I had guessed that perhaps they were using some rendering or shading technique that I hadn't discovered yet. Working from Caligari, I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle than most TGE users, apparently, so I'll probably go back to Milkshape for a while, until I can get textures to work right.
Thanks again.
08/04/2004 (8:38 am)
Thank you, Ben. I will check the 3ds Max docs more closely; I hadn't given them a lot of attention because I bought the Caligari gameSpace/Torque package--based on their (somewhat misleading) claim that they were closely involved with Torque and GG. It wasn't until I had used the program for a month or so that I heard from a Caligari employee that "most of the features of gameSpace are not usable in Torque." At least, that's what he said--I'm guessing he hadn't heard of TSE yet. So, being a small indie wannabe, I'm stuck with Caligari which--though importing into Torque is problemmatic so far--I've been very happy with. Thank you for clarifying the DIF versus DTS issue--didn't realize that DTS supported it by default. So, the conversations about translucency were apparently work-arounds designed at getting translucency to work in DIF. That's a relief.
As for the trees, the shiny torque guy, and the buggy, I had guessed that perhaps they were using some rendering or shading technique that I hadn't discovered yet. Working from Caligari, I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle than most TGE users, apparently, so I'll probably go back to Milkshape for a while, until I can get textures to work right.
Thanks again.
#3
The other problem was with the program's standard TGE exporter, which doesn't really support any features. I also have DarkIndustries' add-in exporter, which does much better, but which also needs a bit of finesse to get it to work properly. I haven't worked out all the kinks on this end yet, but I've managed to get objects into Torque complete with multiple textures, shiny surfaces, and transparency/translucency. So, it's time to get down to work on the actual object assembly/game programming.
By the way, I never could have worked out the 3D importing problem so quickly without the Torque "Show" sub-program--many thanks to whoever put that together!! :)
08/05/2004 (10:06 am)
I have done some experimenting, and I've found that there were a couple of different problems involved: one was the fact that Adobe Photoshop (Elements) doesn't provide a direct method for determining whether your saved version (even if it's a png) was saved with an alpha channel. Some of the time, I was trying to work with textures that didn't have alpha channels.The other problem was with the program's standard TGE exporter, which doesn't really support any features. I also have DarkIndustries' add-in exporter, which does much better, but which also needs a bit of finesse to get it to work properly. I haven't worked out all the kinks on this end yet, but I've managed to get objects into Torque complete with multiple textures, shiny surfaces, and transparency/translucency. So, it's time to get down to work on the actual object assembly/game programming.
By the way, I never could have worked out the 3D importing problem so quickly without the Torque "Show" sub-program--many thanks to whoever put that together!! :)
Associate Kyle Carter
2) A DIF is just an object, like a DTS. The DIF renderer is optimized for large, walk-through objects like buildings, DTS renderer is optimized for smaller shapes. DTS supports translucency by default. DIF does not. There are resources to enable it in DIF but they can give unexpected results.
3) Of course! Have you seen the trees? Or the shiny Torque Guy? What about the buggy?
4) A lot of people have this area of Torque working. Bear in mind that translucency in realtime 3d is challenging and that you either run slow, or have to be very careful with it.
Have you read the 3ds max docs carefully? They explain a lot of the assumptions behind the exporter - even though the milkshape exporter is different a lot carries over.