Would you buy a book on using the Torque engine?
by David Dougher · in Torque Game Engine · 10/11/2001 (6:28 pm) · 15 replies
I would like to float this as a project that I have been working on by the community to make sure I am not wasting my time. In addition to working on my own game I have been assembling material for a book on how to build games using the Torque engine.
In keeping with the philosophy of GG my plan is to create the book as an online "living document" and to charge a really low price. To obtain it you would purchase it directly just the way most of you got your copies of the code. This would give you access to the repository where the most recent version of the document resides. It would be available in Word, RTF and PDF formats as well as HTML. After purchase you would be recognized and could return to the site at any time and download any updates or changes.
For those who wish a hard copy I have located a printer who will make a spiral bound version of the document - this, like GG's CD, would cost a bit extra.
Content would be subdivided into sections on how the system is broken up(class structures, data structures and the like), using the scripting portion of the engine, and the actual underlying code. The code section would be limited to header files and specific limited examples of modifying the code. It will not be possible to go thru the code and reconstruct the engine.
The bottom line is would you be interested in purchasing
such a work if it were available?
In keeping with the philosophy of GG my plan is to create the book as an online "living document" and to charge a really low price. To obtain it you would purchase it directly just the way most of you got your copies of the code. This would give you access to the repository where the most recent version of the document resides. It would be available in Word, RTF and PDF formats as well as HTML. After purchase you would be recognized and could return to the site at any time and download any updates or changes.
For those who wish a hard copy I have located a printer who will make a spiral bound version of the document - this, like GG's CD, would cost a bit extra.
Content would be subdivided into sections on how the system is broken up(class structures, data structures and the like), using the scripting portion of the engine, and the actual underlying code. The code section would be limited to header files and specific limited examples of modifying the code. It will not be possible to go thru the code and reconstruct the engine.
The bottom line is would you be interested in purchasing
such a work if it were available?
About the author
Owner - Pariah Games, Adjunct Professor - Bristol Community College, Mentor - Game Design - Met School Newport, Mentor - Game Design - Met School Providence
#2
10/11/2001 (7:12 pm)
i would buy it.
#3
1) It must be extremely well-written, and I'd want some kind of reviews or something to prove it beforehand. There is just way to much poorly written documentation available on the net for various things. Look at Linux for instance. The documentation is extensive, but in reality most of it is terrible.
2) There must be significant content. I wouldn't be interested unless it was at least 150+ pages. Since most modern computer books are between 400-1500 pages, I think that's entirely reasonable.
3) The cost has be under $8 USD for the online only version to interest me. Anything more and a person is better off going to a bookstore and getting a cool new programming book or something instead. Also, I imagine that in time a major publisher will do a title for Torque.
4) I'd want some kind of proof that ongoing development of the book was steady and sure with punctual updates if promised. Remember, if you promise me something and I pay for it, I will be very angry if you don't deliver. However, if you don't promise it, it won't be a big deal.
I'm probably representative of a decent sized market segment you want to sell to. I'm cheap, and looking for a good value, but I will spend the money if you sell me on what this could do for me. I haven't bought Torque yet, so my interest is high and I want to learn more about it, especially in a free or cheap manner. I'm not that knowledgable regarding programming, so I feel I could learn from a book like this. Especially from the chance to see explanations of how an elite gaming engine works. Whether I understand or not is irrelevent, as long as I spend money trying to. I think that describes a decent sized market segment available today.
Those are my thoughts and opinions.
10/11/2001 (7:17 pm)
I would buy it as a precursor to purchasing Torque itself, as I think a person could learn a lot and get a feel for what's possible with such a book. I'm not even a programmer, but I can understand scripting and basic code enough for it to interest me. There are conditions however, at least for me personally before I would buy this "living document".1) It must be extremely well-written, and I'd want some kind of reviews or something to prove it beforehand. There is just way to much poorly written documentation available on the net for various things. Look at Linux for instance. The documentation is extensive, but in reality most of it is terrible.
2) There must be significant content. I wouldn't be interested unless it was at least 150+ pages. Since most modern computer books are between 400-1500 pages, I think that's entirely reasonable.
3) The cost has be under $8 USD for the online only version to interest me. Anything more and a person is better off going to a bookstore and getting a cool new programming book or something instead. Also, I imagine that in time a major publisher will do a title for Torque.
4) I'd want some kind of proof that ongoing development of the book was steady and sure with punctual updates if promised. Remember, if you promise me something and I pay for it, I will be very angry if you don't deliver. However, if you don't promise it, it won't be a big deal.
I'm probably representative of a decent sized market segment you want to sell to. I'm cheap, and looking for a good value, but I will spend the money if you sell me on what this could do for me. I haven't bought Torque yet, so my interest is high and I want to learn more about it, especially in a free or cheap manner. I'm not that knowledgable regarding programming, so I feel I could learn from a book like this. Especially from the chance to see explanations of how an elite gaming engine works. Whether I understand or not is irrelevent, as long as I spend money trying to. I think that describes a decent sized market segment available today.
Those are my thoughts and opinions.
#4
10/11/2001 (8:13 pm)
Well, I probably wouldn't buy it, but that's only because I don't feel I need a book on the Torque engine ;) If this was a book on another engine I was working on, then I probably would. If I get into something, I always want to collect as much information about it as I can :) Certainly some of the other issues brought up, especially timeliness and accuracy, would be a factor.
#5
10/11/2001 (11:16 pm)
i'm also interested in that book as i'm not very familiar with the engine, but very interested in using it. would be fine if there some code examples and description how to create different game types. not online Shooters. price for a bound book could be up 25$ or a little more if it is big enough, lets say at least 500 pages
#6
Actually, based on what happened the last time I tried to do something like this I would say 150 pp. would be WAY too small. I suspect it would probably be three or four volumes each about 500pp. - if done the same way as I did it the last time. However, I might opt for a bunch of smaller sections on more focused topics.
One of the reasons for making it a "living document" is to make it possible to correct mistakes and introduce new material as it becomes available. Timeliness is important and misinformation can be worse than no information at all.
I think reviews would probably come from the Resources section of GG.
Pricing would probably be based on the cost to manufacture, shipping, processing, plus $10.00 for me.
The online version would probably be the same - $10.00. I'm not doing this to get rich. I'm doing it to get the word out about a great product. I want the money to allow me to pay for the website costs and to make a little cash to allow me to pay for upgrades on the tools I'll be talking about and using to write it. Now if GG or one of the other related sites want to want to carry the materials on their site and help handle the processing I would gladly give them half. After all, they offer a 50-50 deal, why shouldn't I? ;)
As for promising periodic updates, that is something I won't do. I think that if I simply anoounce updates when they happen people will see that the material is getting updated on a fairly reasonable schedule. Besides, there will come a point where the material will not get updated anymore. Probably that will occur when GG (and I) move on to Torque 2.
Actually, I think I will put together a brief outline and a small useful sample from one section and make it available here to see what people think. Thanks for the feedback. Keep it coming!
10/12/2001 (5:52 am)
Tim, you can have the first copy free. :)Actually, based on what happened the last time I tried to do something like this I would say 150 pp. would be WAY too small. I suspect it would probably be three or four volumes each about 500pp. - if done the same way as I did it the last time. However, I might opt for a bunch of smaller sections on more focused topics.
One of the reasons for making it a "living document" is to make it possible to correct mistakes and introduce new material as it becomes available. Timeliness is important and misinformation can be worse than no information at all.
I think reviews would probably come from the Resources section of GG.
Pricing would probably be based on the cost to manufacture, shipping, processing, plus $10.00 for me.
The online version would probably be the same - $10.00. I'm not doing this to get rich. I'm doing it to get the word out about a great product. I want the money to allow me to pay for the website costs and to make a little cash to allow me to pay for upgrades on the tools I'll be talking about and using to write it. Now if GG or one of the other related sites want to want to carry the materials on their site and help handle the processing I would gladly give them half. After all, they offer a 50-50 deal, why shouldn't I? ;)
As for promising periodic updates, that is something I won't do. I think that if I simply anoounce updates when they happen people will see that the material is getting updated on a fairly reasonable schedule. Besides, there will come a point where the material will not get updated anymore. Probably that will occur when GG (and I) move on to Torque 2.
Actually, I think I will put together a brief outline and a small useful sample from one section and make it available here to see what people think. Thanks for the feedback. Keep it coming!
#7
I think you'd be better off trying to get Jeff to allow you royalty points and essentially do the book for free. I dont think a book like this would really be too useful to people in general, unless you expanded beyond the TGE into more general issues, at which point you may lose some of the TGE developers.
Its a fine point I guess, but personally, I'd think this would be a better case for a GG sponsored effort (i.e. they increase your royalty for your games if you do the docs).
Phil.
10/12/2001 (9:00 am)
David,I think you'd be better off trying to get Jeff to allow you royalty points and essentially do the book for free. I dont think a book like this would really be too useful to people in general, unless you expanded beyond the TGE into more general issues, at which point you may lose some of the TGE developers.
Its a fine point I guess, but personally, I'd think this would be a better case for a GG sponsored effort (i.e. they increase your royalty for your games if you do the docs).
Phil.
#8
We may be interested in working with you on a project such as you are describing. The problem is that we can't see your qualifications. Your Developer Profile is essentially empty. I think any developer interested in your work will have the same problem.
Jeff Tunnell GG
10/12/2001 (9:07 am)
David,We may be interested in working with you on a project such as you are describing. The problem is that we can't see your qualifications. Your Developer Profile is essentially empty. I think any developer interested in your work will have the same problem.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#9
10/12/2001 (9:16 am)
Good points. I have been maintaining an exceptionally low profile for me (except for asking newbie questions, passing on what I've heard, and expressing my opinions from time to time). I'll rectify that.
#10
I have purchased the engine and would love to have some kind of "working" information about it. I have spent two weeks in the code and am figuring out some of the nuances of it, but a good reference would be a "must have" for someone like me that is serious about developing with the engine.
I would buy it!
10/17/2001 (7:36 am)
David,I have purchased the engine and would love to have some kind of "working" information about it. I have spent two weeks in the code and am figuring out some of the nuances of it, but a good reference would be a "must have" for someone like me that is serious about developing with the engine.
I would buy it!
#11
10/17/2001 (9:37 am)
I don't want to put this idea down, as I think its great. But, will this be of value to those who are currently using Torque? What I mean is, everyone who is now using Torque will be ahead in the learning curve more than any book will be. Who will buy the book? Just some thoughts... 
#12
On the otherhand if use write it up for ppl they have little or no coding experience i think it would be a hot ticket item and worth whatever you charge.
I think there would be alot more programmers, if the "tuts" that are writtin where more understandable to ppl that dont have the "techy term" understanding.
This would be an exelent example of a non "techy" tutorial.
[added]
btw how do you get them pics to show up like that with out the browser (using printscreen)? i need to know (for the cvs page)
10/17/2001 (11:01 am)
it would depend on how you write it, if you are going to use terms that only experienced programmers can understand, then it would be useless.On the otherhand if use write it up for ppl they have little or no coding experience i think it would be a hot ticket item and worth whatever you charge.
I think there would be alot more programmers, if the "tuts" that are writtin where more understandable to ppl that dont have the "techy term" understanding.
This would be an exelent example of a non "techy" tutorial.
[added]
btw how do you get them pics to show up like that with out the browser (using printscreen)? i need to know (for the cvs page)
#13
10/17/2001 (8:40 pm)
...so, is it out yet? ;)
#14
Do you mean the screen captures of the cvs program?
If so, you can copy into the clipboard, whatever form (ie: window) that you have highlighted currently by pressing [alt]+[print screen]. This will take an image of everything except the mouse cursor.
10/18/2001 (8:20 am)
btw how do you get them pics to show up like that with out the browser (using printscreen)? i need to know (for the cvs page)Do you mean the screen captures of the cvs program?
If so, you can copy into the clipboard, whatever form (ie: window) that you have highlighted currently by pressing [alt]+[print screen]. This will take an image of everything except the mouse cursor.
Torque Owner Adam Baratz