Non Violent games in a time of too much violence

#1 Myst, Obsidian, Riven, Myst III, and about a dozen or so games from Dreamcatcher. (Love the vista views - hate some of the puzzles :)

Now, not to blast away, but to make a simple point. Recent studies indicate that violent behavior witnessed by small children do lead to acting out behavior on their part. However, further study showed that in all cases the aggressive behavior of the children was mitigated in later life. Translation: Yup, kids do play cowboys and indians, war games, karate championship matches. However, there is NO correlation between this behavior and the behavior of those children in later life. They simply do not grow up to be more aggressive.

#2 How about taking some responsibility and not letting your kids do things you dont want them too. Its easy to blame another industry or another individual for something YOU dont like.

If you dont want your children to see war, then dont let them watch TV or see a computer game, fine. But dont blame TV channels or game makers if you do and it has some effect on your child.

Conversely, I'm of a mind that showing people REAL footage of war, and REAL suffering is a far better way of dealing with the situation (showing them the difference between fantasy violence like an FPS and real violence ala wars), Ive been put off war FAR MORE by good quality information and tales of peoples real experience than Ive been desensitized by fantasy violence.

Better to teach people about reality than to try and control thier fantasy IMHO.

Phil.

#3 I'm really liking two simple indie games right now, Z-Ball and Head-On. I suppose Head-on has weapons for two-player mode, but I only use single player and I enjoy it for the realistic gravity and inertia physics of flying the little ship to collect stars.

I'm 24 and I've been playing video games since I was practically a toddler. My father bought a TRS-80 and some tape games for it around 20 years ago. I then graduated up to an Atari 2600 and after that you can follow the logical progression. Basicly, people like me have played video games from the time where big pixels ran into other big pixels to the modern era where you can blow the head off a detailed 3D model and watch blood spray.

I'm not as desensitized as you are by far. I was totally shocked when I saw that plane crash and realized what happened. In the days following I cried several times watching the rescue efforts and thinking about all the people that rushed in to help and were killed in the collapse of the towers. If you could sit and watch all of it without feeling anything, then something seems very wrong about that to me.

I don't think video games, tv, or movies have desensitized people. I think real life has desensitized people. Turn on the news any day of the year and see who died. On any given day a murder or accidental death is usually covered in the news. Here in Minnesota a few people die every winter from being caught outside during extremely low temperatures. Every year there is usually a new disaster somewhere that claims dozens or sometimes even hundreds of lives. People fighting civil wars kill each other regularly, with reports on the news often. Most people will have family members or friends die during their lifetime.

No sir, what desensitizes people is life itself. With the level of media presence in our lives we are aware of death everywhere. People have just come to take for granted that at almost any given moment, someone is dying somewhere. In fact, some people probably died in the time it took me to write this. That is more desensitizing than video games could ever be.

#4 reply to Phil;
Please reread my original post. I do NOT support the thesis that computer games, tv or movies make violent kids/people.
When I was raising a boy, I enjoyed his innocence, his childhood. I enjoyed watching him play baseball, and learn how to read, build a snow fort, ride a bike, feed his pets. He never played violent games beyond a couple of snowball fights.
His computer games were educational and entertaining. His time at the computer was limited, as much or more so than his time in front of the tube. I simply felt books and anything outdoors was a superior way for him to live.
I was driving to work one day, probably the 17th day in row that I could not be at home to enjoy time with my boy, driving to a job to make a FRP that I would never let him play. It dawned on me what I was doing, and I left the industry.
He was all boy, don't get me wrong. He did enjoy one type of "violence", Godzilla movies. I sort of cringed when I realized he liked them, then I watched a couple with him, and we ended up with every godzilla movie made. It was more than the "violence" of Godzilla, it was the drama of a big dumb animal that he liked.

I just don't get a rush out of killing anything, virtual or not.

#5 The company I work for does only non-violent games. In my personal time is a different story, but professionaly, I make non-violent games. :)

#6 I've already decided not to produce violent video games for the time being. One thing I've observed is that people who play video games that emphasize an idea that violence is funny seem to have no compassion for those who've actually been through violent ordeal like situations. All they have said to what I've heard is "I don't care" or "If you don't like violent games, don't play them, it's not our problem". I just fired two of my game designing assistants for such uncaring attitudes. I told them they could come back after they've assisted people in helping others for one year. In no way will I be producing games that depict characters laughing or making jokes about death, destruction, etc. I do wish to produce some games that depict violence, but only for players to express in serious writing how they believe the situations should be resolved. I think that players should see what real violence is like, i.e., there is pain and suffering, bloodshed, starvation, broken bones, etc. I also plan to have a big warning label on each game that may contain violence. I don't think that people killing other people is funny or even fun for that matter. I have tweaked my simulation games to make it impossible for players to win later levels if they answer questions like, "Is it fun to kill?" or "Was it funny when that guy got blown up?" I also give bonuses for those players who try to win the game by destroying the least amount of life and property. When I design my campaign games, I'm going to include options for non-lethal weapons. I'll also tweak the game to cause the player to lose if he/she makes comments like "non-lethal weapons suck" or four letter bad language words. I can understand people yelling out curses like if they're in pain, but when players just consistently bellow out swear words just because they don't have something more intelligent to say, that's where I get tired of it and draw the line.

#7 I think that China recently passed a law prohibiting violent video games from being in arcades.

#8 Look the world is a violent place. If we should learn anything from the events of September 11th, learn that. We have as humans constructed many illusions in what we call civilization. However in the end we are all apart of nature...and nature is VIOLENT. Violence for that matter is not even evil or wrong. If someone tries to steal from you is that violent? Well if they do it unarmed secretly no.....but depending on what they steal it could harm your family, their future, and in poorer countries your chance of survival. IS it wrong to use violence to stop such a thief?
Violence is a tool. It is among the most basic tools humans possess. We commit violence on plants for shelter and food. We also commit violence on other creatures for food, clothing, and medicine, or just not watching where we stepped along a path in the woods. Finally we do and must commit violence against other people...why? Because other people have not been driven into a polly-anna world where everyone plays fair and shares all they have; I thought this idea died with communism. In reality there are mean and selfish people we MUST defend ourselves and values against at all times.
Also, it is imperative that people with good hearts, and compassion learn how to use violence properly, as people with little compassion usually seem to have this skill well at hand. Someone must protect you. Someone must keep order. Someone must uphold the norms of society. If they don't you'll see anarchy the true state of nature.....and that level of violence is much greater then what we see today.
Finally but what about games? What about causing kids to be desensitized to violence? First of all more and more adults are the major players in computer games....so kids really are not an issue. Every parent has the power of the purse over what their kids do and see. Secondly the military does not go to great ends to desensitize it's soldiers to violence for evil purpose; it does it to save their lives. Animals do not require this they see violence everyday are animals more aggressive, yes when they must be, but they do not seek it out except for survival? Seen many rabbits (outside of watership down) attacking each other lately, because they saw violence in the woods as a wee thumper?
I have played violent video games for a long time. I have also played army in the woods before we had video games, and took great pleasure at shooting my best friend with imaginary bullets. (he was never hurt in the process except from falling down) Why? maybe it's cause I lived in Tennessee and we like to shoot things.(it's fun) Maybe it's also because we have one of the highest concentrations of war vets in the country here. Men of honor and courage who used violence to save their hide, their friends hides, and often yours so that we could live in this safe illusion we call civilization. I have never ever once desired to use violence to force my will over others for immoral reasons (though using it to stop a crime has been necessary). I did not bully anyone because I was not insecure enough to do so. I have never used violence for anything other then to protect those I love and what my society upholds to be the proper morals we have agreed to live by. I have never resorted to violence because someone had a difference of opinion, but rather was encouraged at a early age to debate the subject and be willing to accept I am often wrong, and should hear all sides. Why am I not more violent? I grew up on war movies, violent games, and even violent sports. I love to read about weapons, and have an incredible love for Chinese martial arts. I even enjoy sports that are high impact and some would say violent. Why am I not a monster? I am who I am because my parents watched over me from an early age. They guided me through mistakes, and taught me to respect others rights. They were ever present in their views, and criticism on my actions when I acted wrongly....giving me their best wisdom even if we did not always agree. I was shown that being a man is not based on the ability to be violent, but rather the understanding of when such actions are needed, and when they are not, and how to weigh the cost of each. I do not see ANYTHING AT ALL wrong with violence, and considering the current threat to our society I would say now is a time I hope more young people learn to use violence responsibly. If playing a game as a law enforcement official against terrorist is something they enjoy then great! However I would prefer they include innocents and penalize the player when they hurt them. If playing civilization where you wage armies against others in strategy, sharpens they're analytical mind, and resource management skills, then great maybe they'll also become interested in history. If picking up a sword and shield to live like a knight in some fantasy realm against mythical monsters helps instill in them the idea of upholding the values such tales were meant to teach then again why not? Violence is not evil. It is a tool. If games use that tool badly or do not consider morality in their plot then maybe parents need to take an interest and not buy them for their kids. Many, Many Violent games teach skills, and morals. If increasingly they do not, it is because of a lack of imagination on the game designer, not because of the violence within. Many games have tried very hard to put a morality and sense of purposeful violence in their games....the best I would say maybe was Ultima 4 in the quest of the avatar to uphold the 8 virtues. Granted violence was simply a icon disappearing from a map, but they did not simply wave their swords and make the blip disappear. The graphics have gotten better, and so has the realism. Games like Counter Strike deal with rescuing hostages, and penalize you for killing them. I rather think this job done by SWAT teams, and Spec Op units is VERY important, and a very good thing, and these people deserve to be called heros. When I have kids of my own I will definitely teach them how to be violent for their own protection, but I will also teach them how to think first on how to avoid the situation. Lazy parents can not make the world unviolent it is and always will be.......good parents can however take the time to monitor kids behavior if they pay attention to them, and teach them their values by example. Violence is not the problem, it is the morality in the man who wields it.
-Sigismundo

P.S. The greatest and most harmful lie a mother ever told her child was that, "Violence never solved anything." If you do not believe me talk to the people in the city of Troy.

#9 I think you are making an incorrect observation.
I do play violent games, and 9/11 deeply affected me. It wasn't the people inside the buildings themselves that disturbs me, it is the families of those people that suffer the most. Death is short and final, loosing someone in the way so many people did is long and painful.
Nevertheless I think that pointing to games, movies, television, other media desensitizes [people is an unfair statement. I enjoy a quick game of Unreal Tournament when I am stressed. Putting holes in a gruff, beefy bot named Alarik is keeps me from putting similarly sized holes in the windows with the marbles on my desk. I make a definite distinction between UT and a broken window. I don't feel for Alarik beacause he doesn't have any background. He doesn't think, feel, he doesn't have a family, he doesn't read or drink tea. He isn't real. A real person does think, does feel, a real person does read and drinks tea.
In the end, actively removing violence from games is solution, but a sadly unimaginative and inadiquate one. Most people like violence (I don't think that a non-violent game is inferior to a violent one, as long as other elements aren't watered down because of that). A game can be made where violence isn't the focus. The RTS Homeworld is a good example. The violence comes in the form of exploding ships, but that isn't what is important. What is important is the story. The player the leader of the last reminants of his civilization, and must find his way home and dethrone a corrupt empire. The violence is there, but not important. Another game is the PSX game Ape Escape. That game is horrendously addictive, but has no violence to speak of (unless you count whacking monkeys with a glowing stun-rod violence).
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that removing violence is not the answer, the answer is to make games that don't have to center on the violence. If a game succeeds at that, it has less violence in the end anyway.
That's my two cents.

#10 Of course parents have the responsibility to decide what type of media their children should be exposed to but I can't see anything bad in even explicit violence in computergames. Please don't ask me to come up with detailed explanation why but I personnally think that there is nothing wrong with people who like to blow up others as long as they do that in games. I however strongly oppose anyone who experiences a thrill or fun in the act of hurting or killing others (or animals even)in real life. I cannot understand why anyone would pay for shooting such a wonderful creature like a deer let alone a human except for reasons of self defense. A butcher who likes his work is sick in my eyes but we should not forget that a game is not reality and it is each individuals own decision how to use a tool. If I should ever found a family I might not be happy if my son decides to spend his time with shooting of limbs of his mates but as long as I know that he understands what is real and what not I don't see any reason to restrict his access to such software. FPS games are the modern version of playing cowboy.

oh and I'm currently working on a non violent software using the Torque engine. Basically it will be a sophisticated 3d chat.
If you want to know more visit us at
www.dialogos-chat.com

#11 As game designers, our responsibility is to, well, provide games, not to provide negative games. Just as people don't put a positive symbol in front of a positive whole number (such as a 1), people don't put the word "positive" in front of games because when they say they "are designing games" what they're really saying is that they "are designing positive games". Positive games do not have negative influences just as positive whole numbers do not have negative influences like negative whole numbers indicating negative values, negative effects for mathematical formulas, etc. I consider any game that includes violence, depictions of violence being glorified, death, destruction, four letter bad words, and other non-constructive ideals a negative game. To tell you the truth, I have found more fun by not "blowing up some tank", but rather capturing it intact so could add it to my team. I'd like to have free counseling available for people who need it when I get my game company underway. I'm not trying to turn my games into "electronic parents", but I would like to try to provide as much positive ideals as possible.

#12 I think it is reasonable to state that excessive exposure to violent video games can have harmfull effects...just as excessive exposure to sunlight, or radiation, or cigarette smoke, or just about anything else can be harmfull...I firmly believe it is terribly nieve and foolish to think otherwise...Playing Quake, or some other violent game, day in and day out for years WILL effect you...

I don't prepose a ban on violent video games...but I do wish there was a whole lot more variety of subject matter and themes in video games today...games often being compaired to movies; just don't share the variety of subject matter and themes...for every Die Hard there is a Snow White...but for every Quake there isn't a Tetris.

"I've played thousands of violent video games and I've never even thought of harming anyone"...this may be very true..but it echos simular statements made by alcoholics in denile of thier problems "I go out every night and haven't hit anyone on the way home"

#13 I seriously believe that it depends on the child and in their natural nature to perceive things such as violence but take some one like a game about barney id rather have my sights on some game with action not starring at some gigantic purple dinosaur trying to teach me the ABC'S i dont believe violent games have much of an impact it just depends on how the kid was raised if hes a good or bad kid doesnt matter but it matters on how they react to them.

#14 Personally, I think hes right. FPS do desensitize you. On the other hand, I dont think is is nessesarly a bad thing. Hell, it may be a good thing. As long as you still cling to the understanding that harming another person (or animal) is wrong, theres not problem.

Death and violence are a part of life, and violence is part of male psychology. Humans are still animals, and we have the same instincts as animals, we just supress them because we are sentient. In my opionion, violent games and movies are a way to release some of this violent tension that builds up.

If you deny that you havent gotten excited when you see a particually spectacular death in a movie? Why is the "Faces of Death" video series so popular?(BTW, I think THATS going overboard)

There isnt any proof that violent games make violent behavior. When there is some, come bakc and post again.

#15 I have to ask, when did society and parents ask you guys to regulate and determine how much violence is good or bad for kids?

If you dont want to make a violent game, goodie for you. If you want to make a violent game, goodie for you.

Personally, I am tired of people blaming everything on TV, movies, and games.

Jack the Ripper didnt play violent games. Napoleon didnt play violent video games. Hitler didnt play violent video games.

I got an idea. Lets tell everyone Osama did play violent American video games and THAT is why he did what he did. You guys can all join the mainstream press in claiming the US brought 9-11 on itself. Its not Osama's fault! He played violent American video games! Amercia is to blame! We all killed everyone on 9-11 ourselves because we made violent video games!!!

Yeah! You guys go!

#16 well, if talking about responsibility and violence in the games, I would say - I DO think that TV shows, movies and games cause violence.

and you know why? because violence in tv, movies and games is not a real violence. there is not enough of real violence. whats a big deal killing that poor bastard - he just falls, he doesnt scream for mercy, he has no kids in a game, we dont see him trying to catch the last breath. Hes just a drop in gamers fraglist.

I say - make violence really violent. Make blood really red, not green. Let gamer understand that this man will never look at his virtual kids again. And next time gamer will hesitate before shooting poor fella. And he will not point the gun to his friends because he will know a bit more of the death.

Death is not about skulls, blood rivers and other quake atributes. its about not-being stand up and walk again.

#17 This is an interesting subject. I know that this isn't a debat on "whether kids should watch violence on TV or not". But I will share this anyway...

I have a 4 year old and a 9 year old daughter. I let them watch anything that I watch and play anything that I play.

The difference between me and most parents is that I will explain that the monster on the TV screen is made of rubber and plastic and the guy who just died is an actor "playing pretend" like other kids who play monster games, but the actors just have better toys.

I think it's interesting that because of this, my kids dont have nightmares (of monsters anyway), and when my 4 year old watches Evil Dead, she actually enjoys the movie knowing that its all make-believe. I also like that my kids like to jump out at me from dark corners of my apartment because they watched me rip the head of a Space Marine in Aliens Vs Preditor 2. hehe

#18 Just to add some of life's little ironies to the subject, the one description I heard most after 9/11 was that "it looked like a movie." I thought that was pretty profound. Just a thought though...

#19 Peter...what is TRUELY ironic about "it looks like a movie"...is that so MANY violent games try their best to emulate movies...

The horrific truth is that with games becomeing more popular and graphics more "realistic" it doesn't take much imagination to realise that if things don't change game development community in another 3-5 years the reaction to such a horrific event as the 9/11 terrorist attack won't be "it looks like a movie"...but rather "I think I played that game!"

#20 I've always viewed this as a stalemate argument. Carries the same ring as religious debates, that being it's a "everyone is right, everyone is wrong". It addresses a personal view more than a social one (to a degree). No real 'right' answer. It's your choice and your view.

I served in two foreign conflicts. I've witnessed wars first hand and seen the consequences/casualties. I play games based on military combat almost exclusively and enjoy them immensely. Why? Because they are games and carry the element of fun. And the major reason, it's not real. It's just a game, designed for entertainment. I think this is where some people get lost in it, especially kids. Believe me, nothing (movie or game) can capture the true feeling of war. There's nothing that can replicate having a lead ball of primal fear eating away at your gut as live rounds wizz by you, or looking upon the bodies of starving or dead children.

So do I expose my kids to violence? No. Because every kid is different and should be handled in that matter. Some kids are ready to take on the comprehension, some are not. Some kids grasp it fine and are unshaken by it, some are terrified of it, and some are completely fascinated by it. At 4 and 2 years old, mine aren't ready for it. Each one should be handled accordingly and that is the parent's job. Does that make me a hypocrite? No more than it does for not letting my 4 year old light up a smoke or shotgun a beer. I understand the consequences of violence completely.

There was a interview with Capt. Dale Dye awhile back in CGW, which I thought was right on the money:

Quote:"We have and opportunity in gaming to do more than turn the alien's head into a pink mist. PC games are vastly beyond that now. They could be and in some cases are really interesting teaching tools. If you teach a kid and entertain him, he'll really learn.

I'm not a person who believes playing [shooters] inures a child to violence. I think there's so much more to it. If there were no parenting, and computer games became surrogate parents, then I think you'd have a point. But I don't believe most people let that happen. I don't with my kids."