Why did they Seperate TNL From TGE?
by James Keir · in Torque Game Engine · 07/06/2004 (7:01 am) · 31 replies
Hey,
I was wondering why they made TNL and not just intergate it with TGE to make it a better product. So does this mean the Network portion in TGE will never be updated and only support 128 players in its stock state?. To me this doesn't make sence. It would make more sence to update TGE then to make a seperate project TNL. If you could clarify this it would be greatly apperciated.
thx,
--qbvbsite
I was wondering why they made TNL and not just intergate it with TGE to make it a better product. So does this mean the Network portion in TGE will never be updated and only support 128 players in its stock state?. To me this doesn't make sence. It would make more sence to update TGE then to make a seperate project TNL. If you could clarify this it would be greatly apperciated.
thx,
--qbvbsite
#2
OK i see that reason. but is TGE's Network engine the same as TNL. Such as updates that were made to make TNL? or is TNL totaly serperate so now there are 2 versions of the netowrk engine (The one in TGE and TNL)? Thanks for the quick responce btw.
thx,
--qbvbsite
07/06/2004 (9:19 am)
Hey,OK i see that reason. but is TGE's Network engine the same as TNL. Such as updates that were made to make TNL? or is TNL totaly serperate so now there are 2 versions of the netowrk engine (The one in TGE and TNL)? Thanks for the quick responce btw.
thx,
--qbvbsite
#3
There are two versions now. TNL is a standalone, updated product; TGE contains the original code behind TNL. TNL is indeed a bit nicer. If your goal is to make a game, though, what's in TGE is more than sufficient. At some point we may offer a product with TGE and TNL combined, but that's pretty far down the road, if ever.
07/06/2004 (10:15 am)
I think you mean TGE? We don't sell a product called TNE.There are two versions now. TNL is a standalone, updated product; TGE contains the original code behind TNL. TNL is indeed a bit nicer. If your goal is to make a game, though, what's in TGE is more than sufficient. At some point we may offer a product with TGE and TNL combined, but that's pretty far down the road, if ever.
#4
Yes i do mean TGE.. Opps my bad lol. I see so TGE is sufficient to make, lets say a Single Player(No Network Needed), and a multiplayer Game (for lets say 200 players). But can TGE handle a MMO Style of game? I know its all based on the talent of the programer for this (since its open source). And since that it is open source would us programers not be re-inventing the wheel by making TGE Current Network engine into one that could handle a MMO sytle game a little bit better then in its current state. The problem i'm having is that i dont have the extra cash to get TNL and if i did want to make a MMO style game i think i would need TNL. So this would force me to try to re-write the network engine to better handle MMO's. Maybe i'm totally off and TGE can easily handle MMO's and TNL is just structed better, easier to use, and a stand-alone.. but i dont think thats the case. So do I re-invent the wheel or buy TNL... I dont know what to do.. If i could get your opinion on this that would be great.
thx again,
--qbvbsite
P.S. This isn't a flame by no means, and support Torque 100% and know it needs to make money for its developement, just a little confused on what i should do.
07/06/2004 (12:25 pm)
Hey,Yes i do mean TGE.. Opps my bad lol. I see so TGE is sufficient to make, lets say a Single Player(No Network Needed), and a multiplayer Game (for lets say 200 players). But can TGE handle a MMO Style of game? I know its all based on the talent of the programer for this (since its open source). And since that it is open source would us programers not be re-inventing the wheel by making TGE Current Network engine into one that could handle a MMO sytle game a little bit better then in its current state. The problem i'm having is that i dont have the extra cash to get TNL and if i did want to make a MMO style game i think i would need TNL. So this would force me to try to re-write the network engine to better handle MMO's. Maybe i'm totally off and TGE can easily handle MMO's and TNL is just structed better, easier to use, and a stand-alone.. but i dont think thats the case. So do I re-invent the wheel or buy TNL... I dont know what to do.. If i could get your opinion on this that would be great.
thx again,
--qbvbsite
P.S. This isn't a flame by no means, and support Torque 100% and know it needs to make money for its developement, just a little confused on what i should do.
#5
If it was a major difference then you could pay for the license (and you'd have the bonus of already knowing a lot of the TNL internals since you'd been testing them AND having it integrated into your game). If not, stay with your Torque license and tuck your TNL experience away for a rainy day when you need it.
Either way, it'll be a good learning experience for you to do some major network testing.
07/06/2004 (1:22 pm)
Well, you could download the GPL'd TNL...do some dynamics checking between it and your stock Torque.If it was a major difference then you could pay for the license (and you'd have the bonus of already knowing a lot of the TNL internals since you'd been testing them AND having it integrated into your game). If not, stay with your Torque license and tuck your TNL experience away for a rainy day when you need it.
Either way, it'll be a good learning experience for you to do some major network testing.
#7
07/06/2004 (3:04 pm)
Have you been to www.opentnl.org?
#8
No i haven't/.... thats for the link. So i can use the full functionally of TNL as long as my project is open source... Correct? and if there a similar website for the TSL? the shader library?
--qbvbsite
07/06/2004 (6:25 pm)
Hey,No i haven't/.... thats for the link. So i can use the full functionally of TNL as long as my project is open source... Correct? and if there a similar website for the TSL? the shader library?
--qbvbsite
#9
You are already a Torque owner. There is really not need to use TNL since it is essentailly included in TGE. TGE networking does not need to be updated... it is still the best in the industry, and you already own a license to it.
We separated the networking layer because some companies wanted to use it without using the entire TGE development methodology. There are few material improvements. The documentation is much better, but you can access it on the Sourceforge site if you really want to understand what is going on behind the TGE/TNL networking curtain.
The Shader Engine will not be released as Open Source under the GPL. We are quite happy with our exclusive dual Indie/Commercial license, and will continue to use it. We are experimenting with the TNL GPL license strategy, but I doubt it will be the way of the future for GG.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
07/06/2004 (6:54 pm)
@James:You are already a Torque owner. There is really not need to use TNL since it is essentailly included in TGE. TGE networking does not need to be updated... it is still the best in the industry, and you already own a license to it.
We separated the networking layer because some companies wanted to use it without using the entire TGE development methodology. There are few material improvements. The documentation is much better, but you can access it on the Sourceforge site if you really want to understand what is going on behind the TGE/TNL networking curtain.
The Shader Engine will not be released as Open Source under the GPL. We are quite happy with our exclusive dual Indie/Commercial license, and will continue to use it. We are experimenting with the TNL GPL license strategy, but I doubt it will be the way of the future for GG.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
#10
Sorry, I didn't provide a link. I got caught up in the "everybody knows about OpenTNL" mentality since I saw it on just about every OS news site (especially after it hit Slashdot) after it launched. It was especially interesting to me (though I have no plans to integrate networking into my project) because I could see the work it takes to pull a major feature of TGE out of the engine. Just looking at it for that taught me a hell of a lot more about the engine (much of it stuff that I had taken for granted as knowing when I really didn't).
@Jeff
I was curious how the GPL was working for TNL. It seems like a great idea to keep the technology up-to-date (as long as there are willing developers) as well as having commercial viability for those who are using a non-OS'd codebase. But the idea only works if you have a number of OS developers picking up the project and running with it (and then comes the management nightmare). It was great in theory, but I was wondering how it's turned out so far in practice.
07/07/2004 (7:24 am)
@JamesSorry, I didn't provide a link. I got caught up in the "everybody knows about OpenTNL" mentality since I saw it on just about every OS news site (especially after it hit Slashdot) after it launched. It was especially interesting to me (though I have no plans to integrate networking into my project) because I could see the work it takes to pull a major feature of TGE out of the engine. Just looking at it for that taught me a hell of a lot more about the engine (much of it stuff that I had taken for granted as knowing when I really didn't).
@Jeff
I was curious how the GPL was working for TNL. It seems like a great idea to keep the technology up-to-date (as long as there are willing developers) as well as having commercial viability for those who are using a non-OS'd codebase. But the idea only works if you have a number of OS developers picking up the project and running with it (and then comes the management nightmare). It was great in theory, but I was wondering how it's turned out so far in practice.
#11
07/16/2004 (12:02 am)
If TNL is included in TGE (minus some minor changes) I don't understand the pricing structure then. Why is TNL three time as expensive as the complete TGE for indy developpers. I am seriously confused now :)... 
#12
07/16/2004 (4:42 am)
Because ripping TNL out of TGE for use in another app is three times harder (at least) than just buying TNL at that price.
#13
Also, try comparing the price to those of other network middleware products...
07/16/2004 (8:58 am)
TNL is more of a specialty market than Torque. Thus, it costs more.Also, try comparing the price to those of other network middleware products...
#14
Ok it seems to be working now. Still.. question regarding the opensource and the 2 licences being the same still stands. Interesting that it's supposed to be better than the TGE implementation, was wondering why it was so much more expensive :)
12/06/2004 (7:07 am)
So how does openTNL compare to the indie and commercial version. Been looking at the open version but it doesn't seem to compile in VC6++ throwing up dozens of errors even with the examples.Ok it seems to be working now. Still.. question regarding the opensource and the 2 licences being the same still stands. Interesting that it's supposed to be better than the TGE implementation, was wondering why it was so much more expensive :)
#15
12/06/2004 (1:25 pm)
The licenses just determine how you can use the code base -- the code base itself is the same.
#16
12/06/2004 (1:28 pm)
Ok cool, thanks mark :) 
#17
12/06/2004 (3:30 pm)
Adrian, the GPL, Indie, and Commercial versions are exactly the same, on a source-code basis. The only difference is in regards to legal licensing.
#18
Note I am not talking about linking to the libraries I am just asking about ripping out a few important (to me anyways) pieces of code in TNL that are not present in TGE. And incorporating them into my projects.
03/04/2005 (7:31 pm)
@GG I just asked this question in another thread too, glad to know that TNL and OpenTNL are the same codebase with different licensing restrictions. Still the question remains should I purchase a TNL license just to take advantage of the new and upgraded features like a Master Server, or does my TGE license permit me to integrate OpenTNL code into my games.Note I am not talking about linking to the libraries I am just asking about ripping out a few important (to me anyways) pieces of code in TNL that are not present in TGE. And incorporating them into my projects.
#19
03/04/2005 (7:54 pm)
Your TGE license does not permit you to use OpenTNL in any non-GPL project. You cannot GPL Torque, so this is not allowed.
#20
03/04/2005 (7:55 pm)
You cannot intergrate TNL into Torque unlessyou need to buy a TNL Indie or Commercial license. TNL is GPL, and TGE is not. It is our feeling that you don't really need TNL features. They may be nice, but you can make great multi-player games without using TNL. You just need to decide if it is worth $295 and a lot of work to incorporate TNL into your game using TGE or TSE or T2D.
Torque Owner Harold "LabRat" Brown
Also the 128 player limit was removed from TGE a long time ago.