What studio/engine do you recommend?
by Drew Gilkey · in General Discussion · 07/05/2004 (12:44 pm) · 39 replies
Ok looking to make a MMOFPS/MMORPG(Yeah I am sure im probably the millionth person.) I actually got a lot of steam behind me, got some developmental resources, etc(Been working on the story and game aspects for about 2-3 years). Now I am trying to push forward and figure out what engine or studio/engine combo I want. I would prefer something that cuts back the most on development time. So if there is a studio(Like CodeCreatures) that is preferable. It needs to be able to handle a lot of entities on the screen plus needs to have a decent networking code. AI would be nice if its implemented, least NPC AI. Anyone have any ideas as to what they think might be the best for this type project?
#2
07/05/2004 (1:19 pm)
If you're wanting to really go whole hog, you might consider just using TNL and writing your own simulation/rendering layer on top of that.
#3
07/05/2004 (9:07 pm)
BYOND is good for beginner programmers and artists. If you're a noob at game creating, start with that. (I bought Torque, farted around with RPG MAKER 2000 and 2003, did some games on GM 5, and now I am working on BYOND to help with my programming dyslexia (sp?))
#4
07/05/2004 (9:20 pm)
I fear that BYOND is not really what Drew is looking for, although I could be wrong. If you want a neat 2d solution, you might look at what Melv May is doing with Torque 2d...
#5
07/06/2004 (11:39 am)
Yeah unfortunately I am looking for something 3D so BYOND probably wont work.
#6
Torque will support up to 64-128 players so it's not really a full blown MMO engine in that way. You would have to chunk your game up into zones, areas, whatever made sense. Most MMO games will support a few hundred players in one area (City of Heroes for example supports 255 players in a single zone, then crashes right afterwards as we found out recently). Torque's netowrking code is top notch though and as Ben said, there is the option to use the networking layer on it's own and you do your own 3D/rendering/AI/etc. work.
If you're going down the RPG/RTS route, they'll be some work to do as Torque is primarily a FPS/TPS system but through scripting/coding you can make it do anything (check out the resources here as they have inventory systems and other RPG like functionality). The Advanced Camera resource is a great one if you want to do an Ultima looking like game (and personally the third person camera in the resource is better than the default on in Torque).
For a multi-player first/third person shooter Torque, as Thijs says, is at your command. Out of the box will give you a nice looking sample game and something to build on. There are two caveats to this though as you won't be selling your game the first day. Content and modifications.
While Torque does give you a shaped lump of clay that looks and plays well (especially if you look at the starter.fps which is a great starting point) it's not something anyone would pay for. You need to sex it up with some features based on your genre (teleporters, kung-fu combat, whatever). This is going to take time to design, test, code, and refactor. Add to that the learning curve of getting into Torque Script or C++ changes and you'll need to factor that into your decision. No engine is going to give you a content driven game out of the box (unless you like other peoples ideas).
The second thing is content. Plan a lot of time unless you have an army of artists, modelers and designers in your pocket in just creating content. While a good 3D model with animations and textures can be banged out in a week by a skilled craftsman, it can take a few weeks/months just to get organized about what you want to do and what you need. Textures take time to create and test, models need to go through various stages of completion, etc. so don't expect your award winning game to end up on a shelf in a few weeks.
The disclaimer to all this is looking at the successes Torque users have had already. Think Tanks took a few people a couple of months and Orbz was even less (I may be wrong with the details here, but this is the ballpark figures) and they're doing well. Contrast to that where games take months or years to create even when you have an working engine to go off of (Duke Nukem, Half Life, etc.)
Don't let this discourage you but in the same breath, it's not a cakewalk (but it sure can be fun going down this path). Bottom line is don't set your expectations too high your first time out.
07/06/2004 (12:10 pm)
Personally I look to the requirements for what you're trying to accomplish. Torque will support up to 64-128 players so it's not really a full blown MMO engine in that way. You would have to chunk your game up into zones, areas, whatever made sense. Most MMO games will support a few hundred players in one area (City of Heroes for example supports 255 players in a single zone, then crashes right afterwards as we found out recently). Torque's netowrking code is top notch though and as Ben said, there is the option to use the networking layer on it's own and you do your own 3D/rendering/AI/etc. work.
If you're going down the RPG/RTS route, they'll be some work to do as Torque is primarily a FPS/TPS system but through scripting/coding you can make it do anything (check out the resources here as they have inventory systems and other RPG like functionality). The Advanced Camera resource is a great one if you want to do an Ultima looking like game (and personally the third person camera in the resource is better than the default on in Torque).
For a multi-player first/third person shooter Torque, as Thijs says, is at your command. Out of the box will give you a nice looking sample game and something to build on. There are two caveats to this though as you won't be selling your game the first day. Content and modifications.
While Torque does give you a shaped lump of clay that looks and plays well (especially if you look at the starter.fps which is a great starting point) it's not something anyone would pay for. You need to sex it up with some features based on your genre (teleporters, kung-fu combat, whatever). This is going to take time to design, test, code, and refactor. Add to that the learning curve of getting into Torque Script or C++ changes and you'll need to factor that into your decision. No engine is going to give you a content driven game out of the box (unless you like other peoples ideas).
The second thing is content. Plan a lot of time unless you have an army of artists, modelers and designers in your pocket in just creating content. While a good 3D model with animations and textures can be banged out in a week by a skilled craftsman, it can take a few weeks/months just to get organized about what you want to do and what you need. Textures take time to create and test, models need to go through various stages of completion, etc. so don't expect your award winning game to end up on a shelf in a few weeks.
The disclaimer to all this is looking at the successes Torque users have had already. Think Tanks took a few people a couple of months and Orbz was even less (I may be wrong with the details here, but this is the ballpark figures) and they're doing well. Contrast to that where games take months or years to create even when you have an working engine to go off of (Duke Nukem, Half Life, etc.)
Don't let this discourage you but in the same breath, it's not a cakewalk (but it sure can be fun going down this path). Bottom line is don't set your expectations too high your first time out.
#7
P.S. A solution that falls half way im between what you're looking for and what's easy is to do a Diablo 2 Battle.Net like feature. W/ Game rooms each supporting like 64 (128, or whatever) players. Kinda like Burger Wars.
07/09/2004 (10:29 am)
I didn't realize that CoH did have a limit to the players in a zone that was SO tiny. Consider this. Pros made it from a big, rich company. Why wouldn't they make it at around 500??? What is the limit for FFX1? I'm hooked on it with my PS2... ;)P.S. A solution that falls half way im between what you're looking for and what's easy is to do a Diablo 2 Battle.Net like feature. W/ Game rooms each supporting like 64 (128, or whatever) players. Kinda like Burger Wars.
#8
07/09/2004 (11:15 am)
500 would be practically impossible?
#9
07/09/2004 (2:10 pm)
Everything is possible. The point is you don't need 500 for a good game...
#10
07/10/2004 (4:11 pm)
Well I was at the local Barnes and Noble and just happen to come accross the 3d Game programming all in one book. Bought it.. Pretty nive so far. As for torque, Can it do seamless zone transition with out much modification? If not thats not a big deal as the network layer can always be rewritten. I think the main advantage which torque seems to be a great solution for is the physics and graphics engine. May be wrong, but from what I have been reading it seems right.
#11
The best thing about Torque is that it's a powerful framework and it has a lot of functionality built in. Most anything you would want to do can be done inside the framework, as opposed to the typical engine development scenario where each new feature requires adding complexity...
07/10/2004 (5:40 pm)
Torque does not support seamless zone transitions out of the box. You could always add it in. Some of the basic networking logic is there to do it.The best thing about Torque is that it's a powerful framework and it has a lot of functionality built in. Most anything you would want to do can be done inside the framework, as opposed to the typical engine development scenario where each new feature requires adding complexity...
#12
08/16/2004 (2:50 pm)
Check out www.omegacore3d.com for a new engine going to alpha very soon. It is being used to develop a MMORPG and is going to be integrated with the LifeLink AI and world management system. 
#13
08/16/2004 (4:11 pm)
Thomas, that looks like stoneage :/
#14
If you are skilled at C++, I'd reccomend a middleware package such as ICE for the backend client/server piece. go to www.zeroc.com for more info. It's GPL so you can use it free if you release the source to your MMO, but can also be licenced commercially. Granted it is an API set that requires you know what you're doing, but it would allow for the multi-server architecture that MMOs require to handle the sheer amount of concurrent players that have become Standard. Although I DO agree it is perfectly viable to create an MMO that only supports up to 100ish players at one time. To support more players will require a lot of time and dedication in coding. The MMO "Wish" is using the ICE package for their client/server needs, and they are touting a single world capable of handling 10,000 people at once.
I personally would welcome a "good" mom'n'pop MMO that has a steady player base of 100-200 concurrent users in a small, cozy setting. That's what attracted me to the concept of Neverwinter Nights.
Also, just because Torque is geared towards FPS design doesn't invalidate it for MMO purposes. It just imposes a new set of challenges to overcome, as several experts here have already mentioned. :) Rubies of Eventide, once commercial but now shareware, is built on the monolith Jupiter engine. That engine is used in No One Lives Forever 2 and Tron 2.0, and the coders at Rubies made it work for an MMORPG. Although there are some issues and limitations with the game, it's a fantastic example of how you can use a FPS engine to create an environment tailored to concurrent player numbers in the low 100's, not thousands. www.eventide.net is the website for RoE.
I'd personally love an MMO/FPS to join the ranks of those few already out there. good luck to you on it. as for rapid development of an online title, Mythic did just that for Dark Age of Camelot. They were one of the first at the time to use a commercial graphics engine, and based all their network code on the existing DAoC MUD they were running. Mythic went from 0-60 in 18 months with DAoC. :)
Good luck again with whatever package(s) you decide on. My personal preference for an intimate MMO would be Torque keeping the player limit under 200ish. Torque offers a great deal that other solutions don't, and it's proven AAA tech. Not to mention the new Shader Engine looks very sweet in it's preliminary state!
08/16/2004 (5:35 pm)
I'm in the process of writting up a design document for an MMO, and I've done quite a bit of research sofar as for what would be the best way to reach 0 - 60mph the quickest. I will most likely never see my MMO idea through to creation due to the sheer complexity of the genre and the amount of people you'd need on a team to create something marketable in a reasonable timeframe. Like many here, however, I have ideas and just have to get them down in some form, if only to prove to myself that I can. ;) If you are skilled at C++, I'd reccomend a middleware package such as ICE for the backend client/server piece. go to www.zeroc.com for more info. It's GPL so you can use it free if you release the source to your MMO, but can also be licenced commercially. Granted it is an API set that requires you know what you're doing, but it would allow for the multi-server architecture that MMOs require to handle the sheer amount of concurrent players that have become Standard. Although I DO agree it is perfectly viable to create an MMO that only supports up to 100ish players at one time. To support more players will require a lot of time and dedication in coding. The MMO "Wish" is using the ICE package for their client/server needs, and they are touting a single world capable of handling 10,000 people at once.
I personally would welcome a "good" mom'n'pop MMO that has a steady player base of 100-200 concurrent users in a small, cozy setting. That's what attracted me to the concept of Neverwinter Nights.
Also, just because Torque is geared towards FPS design doesn't invalidate it for MMO purposes. It just imposes a new set of challenges to overcome, as several experts here have already mentioned. :) Rubies of Eventide, once commercial but now shareware, is built on the monolith Jupiter engine. That engine is used in No One Lives Forever 2 and Tron 2.0, and the coders at Rubies made it work for an MMORPG. Although there are some issues and limitations with the game, it's a fantastic example of how you can use a FPS engine to create an environment tailored to concurrent player numbers in the low 100's, not thousands. www.eventide.net is the website for RoE.
I'd personally love an MMO/FPS to join the ranks of those few already out there. good luck to you on it. as for rapid development of an online title, Mythic did just that for Dark Age of Camelot. They were one of the first at the time to use a commercial graphics engine, and based all their network code on the existing DAoC MUD they were running. Mythic went from 0-60 in 18 months with DAoC. :)
Good luck again with whatever package(s) you decide on. My personal preference for an intimate MMO would be Torque keeping the player limit under 200ish. Torque offers a great deal that other solutions don't, and it's proven AAA tech. Not to mention the new Shader Engine looks very sweet in it's preliminary state!
#16
Or was that a rhetorical question? :)
08/17/2004 (6:48 am)
Quote:Why do people want to create MMO games!!!Because they are making ludicrous amounts of money for the top providers, and they have provided an incredibly fun sense of community since before they were that massive and were simply 64-player MUDs.
Or was that a rhetorical question? :)
#17
Take a look at FFXI. They get the PS2 players and the computer players in the same game (Of course the PS2 version costs $100, mostly for the hard drive). How many people have bought that game? I'm guessing quite a few. Even this low chance outlook is enough for some game developers to want to make MMORPGs.
08/17/2004 (8:05 am)
Quote:Why do people want to create MMO games!!!
Take a look at FFXI. They get the PS2 players and the computer players in the same game (Of course the PS2 version costs $100, mostly for the hard drive). How many people have bought that game? I'm guessing quite a few. Even this low chance outlook is enough for some game developers to want to make MMORPGs.
#18
It's just entering Alpha so take that into consideration. All the glitz and glamor will be added when the important core functionality is in place. It will have bump-mapping, per-pixel lighting, reflections, cubic environment maps, shadows, etc.
But you can get in on the ground floor now and help to shape the engine to what you want it to be. And it is truly the easiest game engine you'll ever use. I know because I've evaluated dozens, including Torque.
08/17/2004 (8:19 am)
[Quote]Thomas, that looks like stoneage :/{/QUOTE]It's just entering Alpha so take that into consideration. All the glitz and glamor will be added when the important core functionality is in place. It will have bump-mapping, per-pixel lighting, reflections, cubic environment maps, shadows, etc.
But you can get in on the ground floor now and help to shape the engine to what you want it to be. And it is truly the easiest game engine you'll ever use. I know because I've evaluated dozens, including Torque.
#19
BTW, what has become of ActionRPG.com? The site is no longer accessible.
One question, is it possible to increase the number of players that Torque can handle beyond 128 by optimizing the code? Also what exactly do you mean by zoning? Do you mean multiple dedicated servers each running its own zone, or multiple zones on 1 server.
I am new to Torque and just purchased 3D Game Programming All in One (Great book, BTW), so bear with me if these questions seem basic.
08/17/2004 (9:29 am)
I must say Omega Core engine does have potential, but by the time they get something that looks modern, Torque will probably have eveolved to include MMORPG functionality.BTW, what has become of ActionRPG.com? The site is no longer accessible.
One question, is it possible to increase the number of players that Torque can handle beyond 128 by optimizing the code? Also what exactly do you mean by zoning? Do you mean multiple dedicated servers each running its own zone, or multiple zones on 1 server.
I am new to Torque and just purchased 3D Game Programming All in One (Great book, BTW), so bear with me if these questions seem basic.
#20
We evolved into Prairie Games... I would have left ActionRPG up if it would have been free to do so... there was a fair amount of "good stuff" on there... I mark the endeavor up to education.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
08/17/2004 (10:12 am)
"What has become of ActionRPG.com"We evolved into Prairie Games... I would have left ActionRPG up if it would have been free to do so... there was a fair amount of "good stuff" on there... I mark the endeavor up to education.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Torque Owner Thijs Sloesen
Scattered Studio