Let's make a new tool for DIF?

#1 I hate to be negative, but, well, no. :)

QuArK is an open source program. It's probably a better idea to add whatever features you feel are missing to QuArK than to start a parallel project and get to reinventing wheels.

Unless you feel QuArK is so unsuitable you need to start fresh and refactor from the ground up. If so, have at it, by all means!

#2 Mark, there is another problem with Quark.... it's not cross platform we badly need a cross platform DIF/interior editor. :P

#3 Hi Mark,
I have read in many posts here that Quark does not have a good flow or graphical interface. As a very experienced programmer, I found the interface to be extremely difficult to learn so far. In fact, i tried to do game development about 3 years ago and gave up after not being able to figure Quark out.

So the next question would be, could we change the interface of Quark as it is Open Source?

#4 I think it sounds like a great idea.

#5 @Brian: There are some projects open that are struggling to do what you want - create a new editor. A good bet would be to check them out and see if they don't already represent what you.

Building something from the ground up sounds a bit optimistic to me though.

#6 I will be the first one to agree with you that Quark and Hammer aren't great tools for a 3D artist to use, but I don't see how creating a new variant of these two will help in the production of game art. But IMHO, I think you would be better off trying to go the rout that others are taking and making a generic 3D format to DIF conversion tool (ie. ASE2DIF, OBJ2DIF, 3DS2DIF). Why? Well like others have said, why reinvent the wheel, plus a tool like this if it works would be far more useful to the community in general.

Logan

#7 Mmm, I could agree with the cross-platform problem but to go so far as to say that Quark is a limiting experience, neeee.
I can admit to the fact that it could be daunting to learn but hey, wich software at this level isn't?

To those that doesn't get along with the UI and workflow of Quark, get over it! Keep knocking your head against that wall and you'll be getting results in no time, trust me! Quark is the only alternative this side of UnrealEd,sorry.

The cross-platform issue is being worked upon, there are plans to port Quark to C++, help those guys out!!

#8 Quark is EXTREMELY customizable... it's a bit clunky, sure... my biggest beef being that it can be quite slow on older hardware. Lara's development machine is WAY underpowered... and this is a big issue when using Quark.

Otherwise, don't underestimate the amount of time building such a tool would take... the level of dedication and talent exists in only the smallest handful of people.

#9 If you really want to spend a lot of development time, I would look into replacing DIF use in TGE with something else. That'll be quite a bear to do, but it would be a major boon too I think.

#10 Why people keep having the absurd idea of replacing DIF? I know that Quake and Unreal use different formats, but that's their engine's formats, Torque has it's own, as most engines. The D in DTS and DIF stands for DYNAMIX, it's torque's propietary format and it wont change. Now, what I *do* see as an option is to expand the DIF format to support other stuff like bezier patches or other stuff. As for the lighting issues, that's a tool/exporter issue and not a limitation of the file format, which is pretty good.
Many people have suggested/asked/whinned about Torque not supporting BSP or MD3, etc. If you really want support for those, add it or use the Quake engine to which those formats are native, else stick to DIF which is Torque's native file format. Engines that use other engine's file formats are half-engines or not AAA commercial engines, since these type of engines have their own file formats.

Regards.

#11 Xavier...agreed!


@All, I want to see a port to Mac. I hear it's on the horizon. Does anyone know what the main barriers or obstacle to this are? I understand that the code (pascal)doesn't port well to unix platform?

solo.

#12 You mean Quark? Quark is done in Pascal and Python, couldn't be more evil :)

#13 I'd use Quark if it was easy to figure out as Hammer. :/

#14 @LFoster : I Agree with you,,, I really like to see a "3D format to DIF conversion tool".


For example to use this software with great interface(easy to use).

SketchUp 3DExport 3DS,DXF,DWG...(Mac OS X and Windows)


SEE IN ACTION
What is SketchUp?
MORE Videos

What is SketchUp?
MORE Videos


The Max2Map have some problems with convex or concave geometry ? I don't remember.

other solutions :

-mapExporter from DigitalFlux
-Game Level Builder

Waiting for "Xdif technology for TGE" From Synapse Gaming, maybe this solve the geometry problem.


sorry for my bad english. :)

Edit: Syntax

#15 Back when I used to do maps for DoomII I found the tools very easy to use, and again with duke nukem.

Trying to use hammer, I could just not grasp what the heck was going on. I for one, would like to see 3ds2dif / 3ds2dts style programs, as they would enable most people to use their favorite package. My own preference for a modeller is wings3d, which has resonable 3ds exporting facilities.

One thing I liked about Ogre3d was their tool chain, even if it was a little complicated.

1. Use an exporter to write to an intermediate xml format.
2. Use another tool to convert xml format into the required model, complete with autogenerated LOD if required.


Alas the wings 3d converter didn't seem to be well supported as materials didn't get written out, but I digress.

3ds2dts/dif would be a great idea

#16 "Back when I used to do maps for DoomII I found the tools very easy to use, and again with duke nukem."

One of our primary tools is DOOM Builder. The geometry is imported from here into a custom tool that generates the minimal set of Hammer/Quark brushes to represent it in 3d. We bring this into Quark with a custom "map_import" entity. This allows us to add 3d details in Quark while keeping the DOOM Builder level and the Quark map independent. As in, we can edit in the DOOM Builder or Quark side of things... there is no "hand off" point.

-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games

#17 3ds2dts is very unlikely to happen for several reasons. First, it doesn't support the requisite animation features. Second, it doesn't support the LOD features that DTS provides and, finally, it's not natively supported by any modelling package. A 3ds2dts convert would be marginally useful for creating static geometry and useless for character work. It's much better to spend the effort on creating exporters for the major modelling tools that Torque supports.

There is a resource to load 3ds file into Torque, incidentally, that Matt Fairfax put together. You might want to consider looking at that.

I think it's very important to make this clear: DIF is a convex brush based level format. Collision is done against essentially the same data which is used for rendering. If you thought making good models for use with DTS was hard, DIF would be well-nigh impossible to work with. Every single primitive you feed into it has to form a convex hull, rendering about 75% of the features in any conventional modelling tool useless.

To work with convex brush based level building solutions you have to dramatically alter your workflow, which is why Quark is so different from 3ds max and similar tools.

If you want to write a polysoup based interior solution, everything you need is in the engine - you just have to plug your solution in. Then you can load arbitrary models and run around in them. But to work with the existing DIF framework you need to create convex brush based levels, which Quark is significantly better suited for than max.

#18 I ripped down Tread3D and got a working editor.
For the personal use i call it torqueED for the moment:)
I could uploadit but i havent figure out a way to get it to use map2dif.
Othervise i got the lightmap plugin and shape plugin to work so i can render lights in the editor.
Once i got it to export the building but the texture cords was messep up.
And im not really a coder at all.
And no nothing about valve 220 format.
No solution for you for the moment but im trying atleast todo a editor.
And this editor is easier then quark ,moore like wc.
For the moment i do the buildings in it and export to map and import to quark.

#19 This is something I have been thinking about now for a little while. I fully agree with Logan, a xyz2dif would be one of the most immensely useful additions. Being able to take a model and convert it to DIF albeit an obj or 3ds would greatly improve the work flow. For me it is not the creation of a new tool but one that allows you to work with your normal set of tools and convert from there to a common format like obj and finally to dif. I have been stalking the Synapse Gaming web site waiting for more info. on Xdif.

Matt

#20 The artist on our team hates, repeat "hates" the idea that he needs to learn yet another art tool. He already uses Maya, 3D Max, Photoshop. The last think he wants is to have to learn another application/tool.

Our team believes that we would prefer a Maya/3DMax to DIF tool. Maybe an add-on to Maya could be made to account for the features missing that would be required in a DIF?