DTS Importers Redux
by Eric Forhan · in Torque Game Engine · 06/08/2004 (7:22 am) · 100 replies
There are a couple people working on DTS importers, and it seemed to me that this should once again be revisited.
I'm not out to start a flame war, since the following quote itself is rather inflammatory, but I wanted to know if perhaps people thought his sentiment was correct:
My personal thought is that he's wrong on every part except the copyright. Talking of lawsuits are all well-and-fine, but it makes life so much easier for one like myself who would like control over my art and can't afford to take people to court.
Ultimately shouldn't this be my (or anyone who should by the rights) decision? And by this thought, shouldn't GG be releasing their code for everyone to look at too?
I'm curious if Joe Maruschak has changed his mind on this, since I'm guessing he'd be in the upper crust.
Let's keep the flamage down to a simmer, please.
-Eric F
I'm not out to start a flame war, since the following quote itself is rather inflammatory, but I wanted to know if perhaps people thought his sentiment was correct:
Quote:I predeclare anyone that gives him crap about his DTS importer as an idiot. The DTS format isn't an encryption method nor should it be seen as one.
I realize this post isn't that useful, but the whole indie-developer "how do I hide my graphics so nobody can steal them" ** mindset is one of the biggest pet peeves I have when reading any indie developer forum.
(** You can't (with technology, that is what copyright is for). You shouldn't try. You're wasting your time. In 99% of the cases, your graphics aren't worth stealing anyway. Get over yourself. )
My personal thought is that he's wrong on every part except the copyright. Talking of lawsuits are all well-and-fine, but it makes life so much easier for one like myself who would like control over my art and can't afford to take people to court.
Ultimately shouldn't this be my (or anyone who should by the rights) decision? And by this thought, shouldn't GG be releasing their code for everyone to look at too?
I'm curious if Joe Maruschak has changed his mind on this, since I'm guessing he'd be in the upper crust.
Let's keep the flamage down to a simmer, please.
-Eric F
About the author
#82
06/09/2004 (7:17 pm)
Gotcha... Well, then what stops someone from just using the dts the way it is? (besides morals)
#83
I've also noticed that there are a lot of people that think if they bought a game or downloaded a demo, any of the models are their's to use for ANY reason (they will even argue the fact of copyright laws), as long as they don't make money on it. So, they will make demos and post links, post screenshots, etc. I haven't noticed it at GG like I have on some of the other boards.
Also, a lot of non-computer people(and a lot of them as well) of the world also think its ok to make copies of software (compilers, office applications (word, excel,etc) and games) and give them out to friends or whomever. Art work, on the other hand, is a much more specialized, vertical market; but, when the prevalent attitude of people is; all this software should be free, it cares over. I see it everyday at work (I'm in IT for a manufacturing company) where someone in sales or another depart will bootleg program--I've gotten into a lot of arguements with people on this subject.
As well as, I'm spending a lot of money on having my models made, and I'd sure hate to see one of my models in another demo in Blitz, 3d gamestudio, **name-of-engine-here**.
That's why I'm a little concerned about the Unwrap plugin being talked about in another thread, I hope he puts a stop to being able to export the dts file out as another format. I can see the value of the Unwrap plugin, but at the same time I know a lot of people use Unwrap just to convert model formats.
But, I'm not going to worry about it until my game is much closer to completion--which is a ways off.
06/09/2004 (8:12 pm)
With an importer, they could then re-export it out as a different format (Blitz3d, 3d gamestudio, Truevision 3d, etc, etc) at least with dts, they'd be just restricted to a Torque based game. I've also noticed that there are a lot of people that think if they bought a game or downloaded a demo, any of the models are their's to use for ANY reason (they will even argue the fact of copyright laws), as long as they don't make money on it. So, they will make demos and post links, post screenshots, etc. I haven't noticed it at GG like I have on some of the other boards.
Also, a lot of non-computer people(and a lot of them as well) of the world also think its ok to make copies of software (compilers, office applications (word, excel,etc) and games) and give them out to friends or whomever. Art work, on the other hand, is a much more specialized, vertical market; but, when the prevalent attitude of people is; all this software should be free, it cares over. I see it everyday at work (I'm in IT for a manufacturing company) where someone in sales or another depart will bootleg program--I've gotten into a lot of arguements with people on this subject.
As well as, I'm spending a lot of money on having my models made, and I'd sure hate to see one of my models in another demo in Blitz, 3d gamestudio, **name-of-engine-here**.
That's why I'm a little concerned about the Unwrap plugin being talked about in another thread, I hope he puts a stop to being able to export the dts file out as another format. I can see the value of the Unwrap plugin, but at the same time I know a lot of people use Unwrap just to convert model formats.
But, I'm not going to worry about it until my game is much closer to completion--which is a ways off.
#84
Tom
06/09/2004 (8:59 pm)
At least the artwork used in a game can be protected by encryption, which would require a disassembly of the game executable to figure out how to decrypt the dts files. The guys selling the content packs can't do this or else you wouldn't be able to use their models! This also got me to thinking about script disassemblers. Does there currently exist such a beast that could take a compiled script file and disassemble it back to a human-readable .cs file? Not sure how protective you guys that are developing commercial titles are about folks unraveling your script files?Tom
#86
Encryption wouldn't help much - we've touched on this before.
You can't protect your assets from a determined and skilled indivudual.
Everyone else you can deter with the most minimal of protections, like using an unencrypted but obscure format.
But real encryption? Complete waste of resources.
06/10/2004 (8:10 am)
Quote:At least the artwork used in a game can be protected by encryption, which would require a disassembly of the game executable to figure out how to decrypt the dts files.
Encryption wouldn't help much - we've touched on this before.
You can't protect your assets from a determined and skilled indivudual.
Everyone else you can deter with the most minimal of protections, like using an unencrypted but obscure format.
But real encryption? Complete waste of resources.
#87
But you are right, a determined individual can always crack the code - but I don't think it is a "waste of resources" to provide some stumbling blocks. I mean, you still lock your home or car even though someone can still pick the lock or break a window, right?
Tom
06/11/2004 (3:02 pm)
As I stated, someone can disassemble your proggy to figure out the encryption (or an obscure format as you mentioned), which requires considerably more knowledge and determination, especially if you varied the encryption mechanism slightly for each piece of art. The point I was trying to make was that casual "thieves" or curious "honest" folks would be deterred significantly. Keeping artwork in unencrypted dts files with a publicly available importer available makes it just too easy and tempting.But you are right, a determined individual can always crack the code - but I don't think it is a "waste of resources" to provide some stumbling blocks. I mean, you still lock your home or car even though someone can still pick the lock or break a window, right?
Tom
#88
Flawed analogy. Nobody can sit around trying to break into my car or house for hours without someone noticing something is up. And if they want to try, they have to put themselves at direct risk of getting caught and possibly shot.
This isn't the case with software protection where they can sit in their homes, anonymously (possibly in their underwear) hacking the code until it breaks. And history shows it won't take very long for it to break.
If GarageGames did bother to put encryption on DTS files it would go something like this:
6 man months of effort to add an encryption system, make all the required changes to the code, QA everything, etc.
2 days of effort* to put all that effort to waste when someone cracks the encryption and then posts the code to the Internet so now anyone can do it.
Absolute, complete waste of resources.
Also Note - I am being extremely liberal with the 2 days of effort estimate. In reality it would probably take a matter of minutes unless Garage Games wants to reverse its current policy of giving source code to engine licencees. There's not much you can do to obscure data formats when the source code is available to anyone who wants it for $100. So now you're talking about 6 months of effort plus a complete reversal of the current engine license terms, all to add a bit of pseudo-safety that won't really protect your content at all anyway.
06/11/2004 (3:47 pm)
Quote:
I mean, you still lock your home or car even though someone can still pick the lock or break a window, right?
Flawed analogy. Nobody can sit around trying to break into my car or house for hours without someone noticing something is up. And if they want to try, they have to put themselves at direct risk of getting caught and possibly shot.
This isn't the case with software protection where they can sit in their homes, anonymously (possibly in their underwear) hacking the code until it breaks. And history shows it won't take very long for it to break.
If GarageGames did bother to put encryption on DTS files it would go something like this:
6 man months of effort to add an encryption system, make all the required changes to the code, QA everything, etc.
2 days of effort* to put all that effort to waste when someone cracks the encryption and then posts the code to the Internet so now anyone can do it.
Absolute, complete waste of resources.
Also Note - I am being extremely liberal with the 2 days of effort estimate. In reality it would probably take a matter of minutes unless Garage Games wants to reverse its current policy of giving source code to engine licencees. There's not much you can do to obscure data formats when the source code is available to anyone who wants it for $100. So now you're talking about 6 months of effort plus a complete reversal of the current engine license terms, all to add a bit of pseudo-safety that won't really protect your content at all anyway.
#89
06/11/2004 (5:48 pm)
George, by your analogy, it's a waste of time for GG to have Ignition.
#90
I look at this way:
1 - Focus and make your game/sim really, really good.
2 - Sell a bunch of copies.
3 - Make a bunch of money.
4 - Don't sweat the small stuff due to #3
5 - Return to #1 and repeat as necessary.
Somehow, I don't think the guys who created the Quake, Unreal and Half-Life series were crying on their way to the bank... (that would include the programmers AND the content artists)...
06/12/2004 (5:28 am)
Interesting thread. Sorry I missed out on its what, 3 previous incarnations. 8^)I look at this way:
1 - Focus and make your game/sim really, really good.
2 - Sell a bunch of copies.
3 - Make a bunch of money.
4 - Don't sweat the small stuff due to #3
5 - Return to #1 and repeat as necessary.
Somehow, I don't think the guys who created the Quake, Unreal and Half-Life series were crying on their way to the bank... (that would include the programmers AND the content artists)...
#91
The only reason I can think for an imorter is probably if you were modding a game, and wanted to change a specific item, like adding a scope to a gun.
For any artist who has worked hard on something knows that they want people to look and not touch. My beliefs on this subject is anyone who would stoop low enough to steal someone else's art and not give credit won't turn out anything worthwhile.
06/12/2004 (6:36 am)
Well I think there should be a website made that people can sumbit objects to before they are .dts, so in .lwo, .max, or whatever so noone technically has any need for an importer whatsoever, they can study the objects and use them for whatever they see fit.The only reason I can think for an imorter is probably if you were modding a game, and wanted to change a specific item, like adding a scope to a gun.
For any artist who has worked hard on something knows that they want people to look and not touch. My beliefs on this subject is anyone who would stoop low enough to steal someone else's art and not give credit won't turn out anything worthwhile.
#92
First off, I think your "6 man months" of effort is ludicrously overblown for what I am suggesting: a simple decryption just before loading the encrypted file that would make it a .dts so that the rest of Torque would not be unaffected. It can as simple as XORing the bits with a key that the developer picks himself. Second, I am not suggesting that GG put this in, but rather that the developer of each game put in their own if they are worried about their art being ripped off. Yes, it can be circumvented in a matter of days by a determined hacker, but then it is just limited to that one game, and it offers the protection against casual thieves with a minimal amount of dev effort.
@Daniel
I agree with your last statement 100%. Someone who steals art assets most likely will not produce anything of their own, or if they do, their theft will be quickly spotted as soon as they release their product.
Also, I am curious what is the core reason that artists do not want their models "accessed"? If someone uses it for their own fun, who cares? If they use it to learn techniques for modelling, for their own stuff, who cares? I can see if the models are copied verbatim or tweaked slightly, then released as competing content packs (or posted for free somewhere) or used in competing commercial ventures, then that would certainly be a cause for uproar! But even then, someone with little to no artistic talent would be doomed to simple copying of others work which would be easily spotted in any commercial release of a product!
My original post against a dts importer was motivated by a concern over an immediate uproar by the talented content pack creators, followed possibly by an increase in their prices due to the ASSUMPTION that everyone would start taking their art apart. But being a developer, I try to imagine someone being able to easily convert my exe to readable C++. It really doesn't bother me. Heck, anyone with a torque license will have most of my source anyway :-) There is so much involved in creating a game: art, music, AI, story, etc.. I think we have more to worry about with blatant piracy of the finished product binaries than with piecemeal theft of of our assets (that's why I favor a subscription-based model)..
Just my 2 cents.
Tom
06/12/2004 (7:38 am)
@GeorgeFirst off, I think your "6 man months" of effort is ludicrously overblown for what I am suggesting: a simple decryption just before loading the encrypted file that would make it a .dts so that the rest of Torque would not be unaffected. It can as simple as XORing the bits with a key that the developer picks himself. Second, I am not suggesting that GG put this in, but rather that the developer of each game put in their own if they are worried about their art being ripped off. Yes, it can be circumvented in a matter of days by a determined hacker, but then it is just limited to that one game, and it offers the protection against casual thieves with a minimal amount of dev effort.
@Daniel
I agree with your last statement 100%. Someone who steals art assets most likely will not produce anything of their own, or if they do, their theft will be quickly spotted as soon as they release their product.
Also, I am curious what is the core reason that artists do not want their models "accessed"? If someone uses it for their own fun, who cares? If they use it to learn techniques for modelling, for their own stuff, who cares? I can see if the models are copied verbatim or tweaked slightly, then released as competing content packs (or posted for free somewhere) or used in competing commercial ventures, then that would certainly be a cause for uproar! But even then, someone with little to no artistic talent would be doomed to simple copying of others work which would be easily spotted in any commercial release of a product!
My original post against a dts importer was motivated by a concern over an immediate uproar by the talented content pack creators, followed possibly by an increase in their prices due to the ASSUMPTION that everyone would start taking their art apart. But being a developer, I try to imagine someone being able to easily convert my exe to readable C++. It really doesn't bother me. Heck, anyone with a torque license will have most of my source anyway :-) There is so much involved in creating a game: art, music, AI, story, etc.. I think we have more to worry about with blatant piracy of the finished product binaries than with piecemeal theft of of our assets (that's why I favor a subscription-based model)..
Just my 2 cents.
Tom
#93
For us, mainly support requests based on inexperienced modders (of which there are MANY with ThinkTanks) breaking their copy of the game and needing assitance getting it back in working order.
Hard to say if all the MODS made for ThinkTanks have helped or hurt us. In has not produced a huge increase in sales, but it has certainly created a situation where we don't have a ton of control about the direction of our game. Being small, with no marketing budget to speak of, this is a concern to us.
For everyone else in the community.. a giant explosion of free dts shapes to throw into their demos or games with unclear origins and no license, many of which may be broken. A note that I checked out the UnWrap3d importer and about 70% of the shapes of ours that I brought in appeared totally borked.. as I could not save them out to check how they worked in game, I am not sure what got 'lost' in translation with this tool.
For me personally.. I get more private requests for help per week than I can deal with.. I just don't have the time to help all the people that want the help. Now, with a tool that anyone, regardless of skill or knowledge of anything other than how to use the 'open' button, I forsee the possibility of a lot of noise starting to grow in the developers threads here from realtive newbies, and the veterans here will just go hide in the corner as the requests for help are just too much to deal with.
Now with UnWrap 3d, it does cost to register.. which creates just enough a barrier to entry that things will remain under control and not get out of hand.
If people are wondering why I fear the end users getting ahold of some of these tools, you might want to check out some of the modding threads on Planet Think Tanks .
SO no uproar from me.. just a note that as a community we should be cautious about where this takes us. Could be a good place, could be a bad place.
06/12/2004 (8:06 am)
Quote:Also, I am curious what is the core reason that artists do not want their models "accessed"?
For us, mainly support requests based on inexperienced modders (of which there are MANY with ThinkTanks) breaking their copy of the game and needing assitance getting it back in working order.
Hard to say if all the MODS made for ThinkTanks have helped or hurt us. In has not produced a huge increase in sales, but it has certainly created a situation where we don't have a ton of control about the direction of our game. Being small, with no marketing budget to speak of, this is a concern to us.
For everyone else in the community.. a giant explosion of free dts shapes to throw into their demos or games with unclear origins and no license, many of which may be broken. A note that I checked out the UnWrap3d importer and about 70% of the shapes of ours that I brought in appeared totally borked.. as I could not save them out to check how they worked in game, I am not sure what got 'lost' in translation with this tool.
For me personally.. I get more private requests for help per week than I can deal with.. I just don't have the time to help all the people that want the help. Now, with a tool that anyone, regardless of skill or knowledge of anything other than how to use the 'open' button, I forsee the possibility of a lot of noise starting to grow in the developers threads here from realtive newbies, and the veterans here will just go hide in the corner as the requests for help are just too much to deal with.
Now with UnWrap 3d, it does cost to register.. which creates just enough a barrier to entry that things will remain under control and not get out of hand.
If people are wondering why I fear the end users getting ahold of some of these tools, you might want to check out some of the modding threads on Planet Think Tanks .
SO no uproar from me.. just a note that as a community we should be cautious about where this takes us. Could be a good place, could be a bad place.
#94
@Tom, if you need to ask again why artist's, and others, are against a DTS Importer I think you need to go back to post 1 on this thread and carefully read things over again as that will clearly explain the issues.
Logan
06/12/2004 (9:02 am)
@Daniel, There are some free files available on Digital Boneyard and Game Beavers that have their native 3D application format and are setup for Torque. @Tom, if you need to ask again why artist's, and others, are against a DTS Importer I think you need to go back to post 1 on this thread and carefully read things over again as that will clearly explain the issues.
Logan
#95
Did you intend for folks to mod your game, or is that something you encourage as a selling point? If not, why are you wasting your valuable time supporting these folks when their mods break? Let the modding community handle it themselves. Or maybe throw up an FAQ of common issues and leave it at that?
@Logan
The recurring theme has been "I don't want people to disassemble my models." My question was WHY? Joe brought up a concrete reason, in that he gets tons of support requests for mods breaking his game. What other reasons? Is it fear of having those models used as competition against you? Has this happened much in the commercial sphere? Is it that folks are just "selfish" about their art?
My original post sympathized with the content pack creators as someone could just buy a single "vehicle" content pack, then use an importer to get to the model data and tweak the models therein to produce a bunch of other, slightly altered vehicles. The temptation is great since it would be so easy to do. As far as a finished game having its assets "importable" doesn't seem to be as big of an issue to me.
Tom
06/12/2004 (10:47 am)
@JoeDid you intend for folks to mod your game, or is that something you encourage as a selling point? If not, why are you wasting your valuable time supporting these folks when their mods break? Let the modding community handle it themselves. Or maybe throw up an FAQ of common issues and leave it at that?
@Logan
The recurring theme has been "I don't want people to disassemble my models." My question was WHY? Joe brought up a concrete reason, in that he gets tons of support requests for mods breaking his game. What other reasons? Is it fear of having those models used as competition against you? Has this happened much in the commercial sphere? Is it that folks are just "selfish" about their art?
My original post sympathized with the content pack creators as someone could just buy a single "vehicle" content pack, then use an importer to get to the model data and tweak the models therein to produce a bunch of other, slightly altered vehicles. The temptation is great since it would be so easy to do. As far as a finished game having its assets "importable" doesn't seem to be as big of an issue to me.
Tom
#96
The real question is: Why do some feel entitled to decompile it, for any reason?
I'll concede that James has a good reason, in creating an exporter... but I still have yet to see a valid one for anyone else.
edit: cain't speel.
06/12/2004 (11:02 am)
Quote:My question was WHY?Who owns the intellectual property?
The real question is: Why do some feel entitled to decompile it, for any reason?
I'll concede that James has a good reason, in creating an exporter... but I still have yet to see a valid one for anyone else.
edit: cain't speel.
#97
We did not intend for the game to be modded, but it is being modded. We say officially that we do not support modding, but we cannot determine on first contact whether someone has a legitimate problem with the game or whether they are screwing around and breaking it.
It is not a big issue now, and we don't want it to become one. And the issue is not just one of helping people that break their game, it is that of new 'demo' users hopping into a mod and experiencing all sorts of weirdness. We did not have the time to add in support for turning off modded games in the default server list (we are doing so for future products).
So, any neagtive effects of someone new to thinktanks (a demo user) having a bad experience with our game is something that we don't have a lot of control over.
Yes, we could put things in to prevent it from being a problem.. and we are going to in our next products. As an Indie, somethimes issues like this you just 'cross your fingers and hope for the best'.
As for the content packs, we encourage the dissamembly and altering of the vehicles we sell, and as long as they are not released as competing products (content packs or freely released content) we don't have a problem with it. Right now we are trying to convert all the content packs to all 3d software that supports an exporter for the TGE. We want people to be using the packs to learn.
06/12/2004 (11:45 am)
Quote:@Joe
Did you intend for folks to mod your game, or is that something you encourage as a selling point? If not, why are you wasting your valuable time supporting these folks when their mods break? Let the modding community handle it themselves. Or maybe throw up an FAQ of common issues and leave it at that?
We did not intend for the game to be modded, but it is being modded. We say officially that we do not support modding, but we cannot determine on first contact whether someone has a legitimate problem with the game or whether they are screwing around and breaking it.
It is not a big issue now, and we don't want it to become one. And the issue is not just one of helping people that break their game, it is that of new 'demo' users hopping into a mod and experiencing all sorts of weirdness. We did not have the time to add in support for turning off modded games in the default server list (we are doing so for future products).
So, any neagtive effects of someone new to thinktanks (a demo user) having a bad experience with our game is something that we don't have a lot of control over.
Yes, we could put things in to prevent it from being a problem.. and we are going to in our next products. As an Indie, somethimes issues like this you just 'cross your fingers and hope for the best'.
As for the content packs, we encourage the dissamembly and altering of the vehicles we sell, and as long as they are not released as competing products (content packs or freely released content) we don't have a problem with it. Right now we are trying to convert all the content packs to all 3d software that supports an exporter for the TGE. We want people to be using the packs to learn.
#98
Tom
06/13/2004 (2:08 pm)
Thanks Joe, you have definitely put things into perspective for me. I am especially impressed that you are ok with folks disassembling your models for their own knowledge.Tom
#99
I am totally for people disassembling things for knowledge.. it is in fact why I against importers. If all of a sudden we get tools that can pull in one game format and export into DTS, we are going to have a lot of crap coming into GG, and a lot of people spamming the forums with tons of stupid questions that would best be answered with "learn what you are doing before attempting to do it" because they are not learning HOW to get the models to work..
When the TGE was released, I did a lot of work to try to pass on the knowledge I have to others, so that they in turn could pass that on. I want to see more people learning how to make game ready art, and less reliance on just grabbing a model, tweaking a few things, hitting the export button and praying.
If one takes the time to learn and understand how the exporter works and what the limitations of the TGE (or any game engine for that matter) are, then they can use their heads and their knowledge of 3d graphics to figure out a solution.
I am doing what I can to share the knowledge. Unfortunately, I am one person and I don't have all the time in the world to spend here on the forums and on IRC answering all questions. I would rather see these forums continue to be a place where people can share knowledge and learn from each other, and not degenerate into a bunch of noise.. which results in the people who know what they are doing going underground and the n00bs are left to fend for themselves.
As the community grows, we can choose to talk about these issues and work together to make this a vibrant community of professionals and hobbyists, all co-existing, learning, and having fun togehter.. OR we can just let things go and let the community become whatever it will become..
It is not a huge problem right now.. but there has been an increasing number of new TGE and TSE users coming in, and some of the seasoned vets are withdrawing a bit more, as the time taken by answering forum posts and just READING all the forum posts is prohibitive and interferes with development.
I don't want to see this happen. When I see something that makes me think it 'may' if we are not careful how we as a community handle it, then I try to speak up and make my voice heard, as I do not want this community to fragment into some sort of weird caste system.
Regarding this thread, I think these sorts of discussions are important to hae every once in a while. There will be importers.. art will get ripped, games will get hacked.. and we will move on. This does not mean that we can't all sit down and have a semi-intelligent discussion about it, learn a little bit more about each other and the concerns of each 'discipline' of game development, and better understand what sorts of issues are out there.
Regarding this topic, my issues are not the same as everyone elses.. and I don't expect them to be. My hope is that some of the people reading this plan to travel where we have already been (shipping a game and starting a company), and that they take the time to understand my concerns and think about where they are going and what they are doing with a little more clarity.
06/13/2004 (7:48 pm)
Tom, I am totally for people disassembling things for knowledge.. it is in fact why I against importers. If all of a sudden we get tools that can pull in one game format and export into DTS, we are going to have a lot of crap coming into GG, and a lot of people spamming the forums with tons of stupid questions that would best be answered with "learn what you are doing before attempting to do it" because they are not learning HOW to get the models to work..
When the TGE was released, I did a lot of work to try to pass on the knowledge I have to others, so that they in turn could pass that on. I want to see more people learning how to make game ready art, and less reliance on just grabbing a model, tweaking a few things, hitting the export button and praying.
If one takes the time to learn and understand how the exporter works and what the limitations of the TGE (or any game engine for that matter) are, then they can use their heads and their knowledge of 3d graphics to figure out a solution.
I am doing what I can to share the knowledge. Unfortunately, I am one person and I don't have all the time in the world to spend here on the forums and on IRC answering all questions. I would rather see these forums continue to be a place where people can share knowledge and learn from each other, and not degenerate into a bunch of noise.. which results in the people who know what they are doing going underground and the n00bs are left to fend for themselves.
As the community grows, we can choose to talk about these issues and work together to make this a vibrant community of professionals and hobbyists, all co-existing, learning, and having fun togehter.. OR we can just let things go and let the community become whatever it will become..
It is not a huge problem right now.. but there has been an increasing number of new TGE and TSE users coming in, and some of the seasoned vets are withdrawing a bit more, as the time taken by answering forum posts and just READING all the forum posts is prohibitive and interferes with development.
I don't want to see this happen. When I see something that makes me think it 'may' if we are not careful how we as a community handle it, then I try to speak up and make my voice heard, as I do not want this community to fragment into some sort of weird caste system.
Regarding this thread, I think these sorts of discussions are important to hae every once in a while. There will be importers.. art will get ripped, games will get hacked.. and we will move on. This does not mean that we can't all sit down and have a semi-intelligent discussion about it, learn a little bit more about each other and the concerns of each 'discipline' of game development, and better understand what sorts of issues are out there.
Regarding this topic, my issues are not the same as everyone elses.. and I don't expect them to be. My hope is that some of the people reading this plan to travel where we have already been (shipping a game and starting a company), and that they take the time to understand my concerns and think about where they are going and what they are doing with a little more clarity.
#100
It is vitally important that we make this community friendly towards the bright, clear-thinking people that are going to make succesful products using Torque. The hobbyists are also important, but ultimately the point of Torque and every other game engine is to make a game.
06/16/2004 (2:36 pm)
I agree with Joe on this one. (Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I haven't read forums for a few days.)It is vitally important that we make this community friendly towards the bright, clear-thinking people that are going to make succesful products using Torque. The hobbyists are also important, but ultimately the point of Torque and every other game engine is to make a game.
Torque Owner Mz
Person A buys content pack, uses it in Game B.
Person C downloads demo of Game B, uses DTS importer on content pack.