We need tutorials written by experts! I'll pay for it!

#1 I'll start out with.. "I agree 100%"

But reality states that people won't necessarily pay for such things. There was a thread, just recently, that had one of those guys (Joe Maruschak) swapping words with another guy in your position (Steve Lundmark). It became very obvious that Steve didn't see value in those kinds of tutorials. He believed that they should be given freely to the community.

It takes a lot to set up a decent tutorial. To make sure that it works, and works every time -- to check for inconsistencies, bugs, and spelling errors. I know, for a fact, that Joe and Clark are two of the hardest working guys in this community. You see people like Melv May, Joshua Ritter, Phil Carlisle, and others who give freely of their time because they got so much from other people. But this shows two different sectors of the indie community. There are those who stake everything on it (guess I should put Joshua into the sector with Joe and Clark, eh?) and are working at living the dream. And then there are those that have a fulltime job and partake in this community because they love it so much.

I wish everyone could make the money they want from their endeavours. But it doesn't happen.. If there were more people like you, Adam, then this would be better for those who bet the barn on it. The better that we all do at this, the better off the community is.

There's a lot to the engine. Too many people think that it's going to be cake when they purchase the engine -- and they quickly learn how hard it really is to produce good, marketable results. I'm learning myself, right this very moment. If I had more time, I'd write up a good tutorial about the things I've learned. If I thought I could make money at it, I might just pull the engine apart and only make tutorials.

Just my 2 cents.

- Brett

#2 I want to add to this.. if people were willing to pay.. I'd be all over making tutorials. I know that making a tutorial is HARD work. It takes a long time to do it right, and for something as complex as setting up a character and doing all the animations and getting it working in the TGE, with illustrations, it could easily be a small book (50-pages).

We have talked about it, but the time investment is huge, and as Brett pointed out, the return on invenstment may be low due to many members of the community feeling that such information should be free.

I would like it if such information were free.. but there is the time it takes to make it happen.. and that is in short supply for me at the moment.

#3 If you haven't already seen this great resource then please do. This is your "I would pay for good information" resource.
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=18132

#4 I want to follow up on this saying I got a chance to check out the Book today and I was REALLY impressed with the amount of information it covered. A job very well done and I hope that it ends up being lucartive for him.

#5 First off, I'm one of the people who believe that this information should be free. Making small tutorials and charging for it, I believe, is against the nature of the community.

On the other hand, I do understand where you guys are coming from. I understand that everyone has expenses and time is a valuable thing. But doing this thing will fragment the community into two groups. The small number of "full time" game developers who have money to spend and the large bulk of people who's either doing this as a hobby (who's on a budget like me) and entusiasts who don't have to the cash (teenagers and students) to spend. I remember that everyone (as IN everyone) started out as the latter.

I'm not telling you people to stop. I commend your business acuity if you actually make a living out of this. I'm just reminding you that if this becomes a trend and getting help on something suddenly requires a dollar or two ... I believe people like me who's just doing this for fun and stress relief will just quietly slip away.

Last note, I bought Ken's book, mentioned by Bill's post. It took me a long time to do so because I had to explain it to my wife why I need to buy it and for her to factor it in to our budget. A lot of people laughs at the absurdity of this but consider that $47USD is $2,632PHP. I bought the book because of the content. The range of topics covered by Ken. So paid small tutorial for me is out of the question.

r/Alex

#6 There will always be people who cannot afford to purchase tutorials. But on the same thread, there will always be people who can afford to make free tutorials. They may not be something that someone invested a month in producing it, and it may lack that polish of a professional tutorial or book. But there will always be free tutorials out there.

- Brett

#7 :) ive been keep tabs on the book.... as soon as i put my latest paycheck in the bank... BAM! that suckers mine.

As far as everything else goes, thanks for replying... its nice to know that people have similar views.

Im surprised that there are people that are opposed to paying for knowledge (in this case, the tutorials). For me, there are two main hurdles in developement. Time and knowledge. Id rather use my time making stuff than spend it trying to learn how to make stuff.

EDIT: you make a good point, alex. Im currently in school, so i understand the issue about finances and stuff. I dont have a license yet for these very reasons; Ive just been modding a copy one of my teachers has (im an art student anyway, so fun lot of good it would do until i can get some programming under my belt). What Im getting at is quality. If you are paying someone for something, its easier to expect from them a certain level of quality. Now, thats not to say that people dont release crap and expect people to pay for it. Come on, we are all into GAMES here. Everyone knows that there is PLENTY of that in this industry.

Moreover, thats not to put down the many outstanding individuals who have contributed to the community out of good will. We can all think of a few people who have really gone above and beyond without ever thinking of compensation.

I myself plan on releasing the game im working on for free. I dont plan on making any money at all. But I also care about the quality of the work I do release. I think anyone would. Yes this is a hobby, but its more than that. Its a passion of the medium. I dont mind spending money on it if it will allow me to produce stronger work.

#8

Quote: understand that everyone has expenses and time is a valuable thing. But doing this thing will fragment the community into two groups. The small number of "full time" game developers who have money to spend and the large bulk of people who's either doing this as a hobby (who's on a budget like me) and entusiasts who don't have to the cash (teenagers and students) to spend.

I don't take this view.. and I hesitate to call it pessimistic, as there is some truth to it, but I don't think it will fragment the community. Yes, the community will stratify somewhat.. but this has already happened. There are those that are concerned with making and shipping real products, and there are those that are learning and doing this as a hobby. It is amazing that we can all co-exist together, but the goals, concerns, and skill levels are much different, and the community as a whole must come to accept it.

That is not to say there is an 'exclusive' group. Those that are 'in the know' are not hoarding the information... in fact, most of the heavy hitters hear spend a great deal of time on the forums and on IRC helping people. The did not get to be the respected members of the community by sitting by and waiting or by keeping silent about what they know.

In my particular case, The main issue I have is time. I just don't have the time to help people as much as I did in the past. It gets in the way of developing games. I suspect that this is the case with some of the others who may be viewed as having a lot of information to share but are not very vocal (or at least less vocal than they used to be). It is not that we don't want to help, but we have our own desires and goals.. and my primary goal at the moment is creating a sustainable software company. That goal is primary in my life. Helping people is gratifying, but at the moment, other concerns more pressing are taking precedence.

Now, the second comment, I just don't buy at all, and perhaps I am a little bit biased in my view. Quite a few years ago, when we were in college, my girlfriend (now my wife) and I took the bold move of selling our car to buy computers and graphics software. We rode the bus, we walked, we made choices about where we spent our money with an eye on our future. We considered it an investment in ourselves. I am not going to suggest that anyone do the same.. but when people talk about the expense of education, it falls on my deaf ears. I have student loans I will be paying off until I am an old man.. and if someone wants to learn, but can't afford it.. I can only say that every individual makes choices about what is important to them.

If someone claims they can't afford software, or a book, or a tutorial, or a content pack from which to take apart and learn from.. before you cry povery and expect me to hear it, you had better be walking.

There is no value judgement here, and I am not pointing at anyone in particular. If someone wants something bad enough, they will find a way. If this is a hobby for someone, I have no problem with it, I just can't make what amounts to a business decision on account of it.

The hope is that the serious developers and the hobbiest developer can and will continue to co exist here. It is with tolerance of both types, by both types, that will lead us to that happy co-existance. Some of us make our living doing this I can only hope that this fact is understood by those they either can not or decide they will not pay for the hard earned knowledge that some of us have gained through years of training and experience.

#9

Quote:
First off, I'm one of the people who believe that this information should be free. Making small tutorials and charging for it, I believe, is against the nature of the community.

Small tutorials, yes -- maybe. But what Adam was talking about is full-blown, step-by-step, excruciating detail tutorials. Something that pulls apart the engine, possibly down to individual lines of code. This kind of tutorial should be paid for. It's a great way for someone to start making money as an independent. Someone could possibly even build up a base of tutorials that funds their game development.

I know that Caligari does it with their Pro tutorials. They cost money, they include video, and a guide to walk you through using the software. Should those be free? It's an opportunity here for someone to really make some dough. However, let me warn anyone that thinks this will be easy... It won't be, and it shouldn't be. I sure as hell won't pay for something that doesn't go into extreme detail, or provide a value that I cannot determine by simply picking through the code.

- Brett

#10 Well, as someone who is part way through doing one of these "pay for" tutorials. I'm going to declare my own bias.

Fact is, even if it was a freebie, most people wouldnt get it. They just dont bother putting in the worlk. So they might be able to get the base implementation working, but what about extending the work for themselves?

Now that leads onto another issue, one of support. For any "advanced" tutorials, like for instance Ben's turn-based strategy one, or my space-game one, there is an element of support. Answering the inevitable questions about why it doesnt compile or why it works like it does.

For the basic information I wouldnt care too much about charging, but for the additional work in supporting the resource, THAT I'd only care to charge for! why? because basically, I DO NOT NEED the hassle :) yeah, I already KNOW how it works, so by answering questions about it, I'm basically tutoring. Which is what I get paid for.

Its like someone asking me to take a class, oh and by the way its unpaid!

We're all in the same boat basically, you cant give everything you do away for free and still make a living, a lot of us work on goodwill, for instance I know that if I need a model to test something, I can hop on IRC and in 5 minutes have something to test with, in the same way that someone can blag any of my stuff or ask me questions in the same way.

Most of us are just looking for people to do a bit of legwork before they dive in with the billion questions :)

So, to get back on topic. Tutorials! yayy! yes, we are doing them, but booo hiss you gotta pay a small fee!

On the upside, you get a lot of code, some free content and something that is a facsimile of a game in your chosen genre.

Cant say pharoah than that!

#11 I'm more of the viewpoint that people should be allowed to eat regularly, stay clothed, pay the rent, take their sweetheart to the ocassional movie, etc, etc. The profits in this community are small enough and if a professional is going to take profitable time to build a professional resource and I need it, I'll pay for it and wish them well. I'm also all for people who want to make a free contribution to the community as a hobby of love. Check out gamebeavers for example.

Now Alex make a good point about those who suffer from prohibitive exchange rates and of the top of my head I can't think of anyone who has found a good way around that issue. It's definitely worth some thought. For the rest of us, and I'm Canadian so I still get dinged a bit on exchange, these things are still within our reach if we really want them.

I just can't imagine my customers demanding that I spend appreciable hours developing software for them out of the goodness of my heart. When it comes to my job I have one charity project and that's it. Everybody else pays for the time I put in.

Your boss or clients have to pay for your time.

If you want free tutorials, they exist, there will be more, and you can find them. This thread was about the possibility of a professional tutorial.

While I'm ranting let me add that Phil and Joe have contributed a wide range of freebies to the community and you could safely bet they will contribute more. If they also want to charge for something, and eat, and pay the rent... that is their perogative. Each of us will then be able to decide whether it is worth our hard earned money or not.

#12 Phil, so you ARE actually doing tutorials that you will charge for?

What topics are you covering?

#13 Any news on these "in progress" tutorials?

#14 Tell me what tutorials you want, and I'll write the ones I can.

#15 Personally, i would really like some really in depth tutorials on vehicles. specifically, how to set up a wheeled vehicle with proper suspension and all the little doo dads (IFL lights, maybe how to attatch actual lightFX for headlights, if thats possible).

but thats just cause thats what im working on RIGHT NOW.

perhaps we should get a list going. it would give more knowledgable community members a starting point if they felt like making a tutorial but didnt really know what anyone else was interested in learning.

Ill go slightly off topic with this one, but for REALLY good tutorials on character modeling, check out www.poopinmymouth.com. i know it sounds like the WORST kind of porn imaginable, but its actually the site of a character artist working on blood rayne 2 that i talk to occasionally. he has a series of free video tutorials that take a character from complete beginning to end, covering modeling, unwrapping, texture creation, and rigging. id just like to reiterate that they are REALLY good. check them out.

#16

Quote:you make a good point, alex. Im currently in school, so i understand the issue about finances and stuff. I dont have a license yet for these very reasons; Ive just been modding a copy one of my teachers has (im an art student anyway, so fun lot of good it would do until i can get some programming under my belt). What Im getting at is quality. If you are paying someone for something, its easier to expect from them a certain level of quality.

I dont understand this post at all, you first say you will pay
for tutorials, and then you say you don't even have a license?

I agree it would be great to have better tutorials, its hard to start from scratch, but tutorials should remain free.

What we could do is have some kind of donation program to tutorial makers, like thouse people Brett talked about before.

Or there could be a tutorial database that charges one time to get a username, and that money could go off to tuturials makers.

I don't really know, but i don't think you are paying for any tutorial anyway, if you don't even have a license.

#17 I was waiting to buy my own license until TSE came out. And Im specifically looking for art related tutorials (although obviously I think programmers should have similar resources that deal with their specific tools/woorkflow/whatever)

but that doesnt matter. My point is just that I think the more knowledgable members of the community would be more apt write comprehensive guides if there was some return on it besides good karma.

doing nice things for others is great, but a good tutorial takes time.

#18 As an artist, a working professional, and a former college professor, I will echo what both Joe and Phil have already commented on. Making tutorials, especially the in-depth ones that people want to see, takes a great deal of time and effort. It's not something we can throw together in an evening or even a weekend. We not only have to define the contents of the tutorial, but we also have to actually build whatever we are showing, make sure what we are building is actually appropriate for the tutorial, explain each tiny little step, edit the content so that it makes sense to the target audience, make screenshots/videos/etc, double-check everything, blah blah blah. The list goes on.

Also, most of the experienced members in the community who know their chops *and* are capable of writing tutorials simply don't have a lot of free time to spare. Most of us have day jobs and/or our own projects to work on. I'm not saying that we won't do it. There just needs to be some compensation other than the warm fuzzy feeling of helping out the community. It's simply a matter of practicality. We paid for our software, our computers, our websites for hosting/selling tutorials, etc. Our time is valuable (someone is paying for it), and we have to decide how we want to spend it.

Now, just to make this not so much a rant...

What specifically would people like to see in some in-depth tutorials? In particular, I'd like to hear about art-related requests. I'm starting to brainstorm some ideas for art training material and would like to hear from the community. I'm not saying I'll actually work on anything just yet (I have freelance work to manage), but I am considering it.

#19 Danny, I have suggestoins, but first I have to ask... When you say you are brainstorming ideas for art training material, do you mean general art training, or art training specifically for TGE/TSE?

#20 It would be good to keep it as TGE-related as possible. There is already plenty of general art training materials out there.