Torque heading towards piecemeal?
by John Vanderbeck · in Torque Game Engine · 03/19/2004 (5:45 pm) · 27 replies
Ok so i'm probably goign to get flamed again here, but i'm curious about something. The Torue Shader thingy was announced, and the Torque Network Library was announced. Both appear to be add ons that cost an additional chunk of change. Is there more? Is Torqeu essentially moving towards a more piecemeal approach? IE Instead of us just licensing Torque 2.0, we instead license all these pieces? How much are we looking at to license all these new pieces which essentially seems to be Torque 2.0? I'm curious because they all look really good but i'm starting to think I can't afford them. I fund my compnay totally out of my own pocket right now.
#2
I betcha what is actually happening is that GarageGames sees the amazing quality of their netcode and decided to pull it out so other engines could include it. It makes sense.. offer the netcode as part of the engine or as a standalone chunk. Make money from people looking for the complete package (TGE) or something they can bolt onto their engine (TNL).
It makes sense for GG to pull the best parts of their engine and offer them as smaller solutions to companies looking for that. Some people have already gone to a lot of trouble to build an engine, and tweak it, and tune it. But they decided to hold off on figuring out the multiplayer netcode. Now they don't have to. They too can become part of our community by purchasing the TNL and integrating it.
The TSE, however, seems to be an extension to the TGE. And I think it's a great idea.. GG has to make money, they are a company with salaries to pay and such. $100 was an amazing deal, but I didn't purchase the TGE with the expectation that I'd get upgrades for life. There's a point at which GG would say: "This is different enough from the 1.2.1 TGE that you purchased. We're going to charge you $xxx to upgrade." Makes sense to me.
I doubt you have anything to worry about. They aren't going to nickle and dime us to death. But they are going to offer cool new stuff to make us spend more money with them. Again, they're a business. Ford makes an F-150, and a new one every few years. I don't expect to have the latest engine put into my truck. For a few dollars I can have my engine upgraded, but the truck is the same. If I want the newest one, I have to go out and purchase it. However, Ford isn't going to give me $15,000 off just because I'm the proud owner of a 1999 F-150. On the other hand, GarageGames is going to offer me a deal to buy their latest engine, and I think that's mighty swell of them.
- Brett
03/19/2004 (6:41 pm)
Actually, I don't think what is showing in the IOTD today is Torque 2. It's an extension to Torque to allow shading from either a high level, or low level depending on what you want to do with it. Eventually it will become part of the complete engine called Torque 2.0. Or, at least, that's my best guess.I betcha what is actually happening is that GarageGames sees the amazing quality of their netcode and decided to pull it out so other engines could include it. It makes sense.. offer the netcode as part of the engine or as a standalone chunk. Make money from people looking for the complete package (TGE) or something they can bolt onto their engine (TNL).
It makes sense for GG to pull the best parts of their engine and offer them as smaller solutions to companies looking for that. Some people have already gone to a lot of trouble to build an engine, and tweak it, and tune it. But they decided to hold off on figuring out the multiplayer netcode. Now they don't have to. They too can become part of our community by purchasing the TNL and integrating it.
The TSE, however, seems to be an extension to the TGE. And I think it's a great idea.. GG has to make money, they are a company with salaries to pay and such. $100 was an amazing deal, but I didn't purchase the TGE with the expectation that I'd get upgrades for life. There's a point at which GG would say: "This is different enough from the 1.2.1 TGE that you purchased. We're going to charge you $xxx to upgrade." Makes sense to me.
I doubt you have anything to worry about. They aren't going to nickle and dime us to death. But they are going to offer cool new stuff to make us spend more money with them. Again, they're a business. Ford makes an F-150, and a new one every few years. I don't expect to have the latest engine put into my truck. For a few dollars I can have my engine upgraded, but the truck is the same. If I want the newest one, I have to go out and purchase it. However, Ford isn't going to give me $15,000 off just because I'm the proud owner of a 1999 F-150. On the other hand, GarageGames is going to offer me a deal to buy their latest engine, and I think that's mighty swell of them.
- Brett
#3
TNL doesn't seem like something they are pulling out to sell to others. TNL is a more advanced version of Torque's network layer. I'm pretty sure it isn't being offered as a free upgrade. If its anything like the shaders, it will be at least $100. So $100 for Torque, $150 for Shader, $100 for TNL = $350 + Whatever else.. I'm just afraid this piecemeal stuff as cool as it looks is going to leave me behind and I don't like being left behind :p
03/19/2004 (7:00 pm)
Oh I have no problems buying new versions every now and then, don't get me wrong. What i'm concerned about is V12 cost me $100, is Torque 2.0 when all is said and done via piecemeal going to cost me over $500.. i'm afraid that it feels that way and that will leave me stuck back here on V12.TNL doesn't seem like something they are pulling out to sell to others. TNL is a more advanced version of Torque's network layer. I'm pretty sure it isn't being offered as a free upgrade. If its anything like the shaders, it will be at least $100. So $100 for Torque, $150 for Shader, $100 for TNL = $350 + Whatever else.. I'm just afraid this piecemeal stuff as cool as it looks is going to leave me behind and I don't like being left behind :p
#4
We are not doing what you said, but even if we were, what difference does it make if you can't afford the new parts? You can't afford Unreal and you can't afford Valve or id either. If you can't afford the upgrade to the new stuff, you still have the old technology at exactly the same price you paid for it. Great games have been made, and can continue to be made, with Torque 1.2.
You don't need the new TNL stuff, most of it is already in TGE. Deciding whether or not to support shaders is a business decision. Does your game require cutting edge graphics to be successful or not? If it does, then it is a $150 decision on your part. I hope this does not break the bank. Everybody on this site is funding their own development. That is a given. GG continues to lower the bar for indies to allow them to compete with what the big companies are doing. You have to make the final decisions as to whether your game or your business plan can support the extra $150. If that is too much for a true shader based game engine, you may have to look elsewhere.
GG will continue to make new technologies, and some of them will cost more money. This is just a fact of life, and at every point along the way, everybody on the site will have to decide if it makes ecomonic sense to upgrade to the new technology. GG can provide great technologies, a lot of community support, a place to sell your game if it is fun, and do all we can to help, but in the end, it is the developer that has to pull it all together to make a business that works.
$100 did not buy you indentured servitude to some of the best developers in the industry for life. It bought you a license to all of the source code to a particular game engine that is perfectly capable of making games that can be sold. On that point we already delivered. As a point of interest, we will make well over $200,000 from Marble Blast after paying all of our royalties. This is performance proof that you CAN make money from Torque based games.
As a separate issue, GarageGames is a great community that can help you make your game. There will be new products and technolgies within that community that cost additional money. I hope that is not seen as some insidious plot. We think long and hard about how to continue to advocate for indies and do what is best, but in the end we want to make more than minimum wage. Even most Open Source projects now-days have founders that are making money. We have always stated that we intend to make money. I hope the fact that we need to make money does not make GarageGames any less of a company.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
03/19/2004 (7:16 pm)
@John: Torque Peicemeal will be $550,985:) You are right, this will probably appear as a flame, but it seems as though we can't do anything right for you.We are not doing what you said, but even if we were, what difference does it make if you can't afford the new parts? You can't afford Unreal and you can't afford Valve or id either. If you can't afford the upgrade to the new stuff, you still have the old technology at exactly the same price you paid for it. Great games have been made, and can continue to be made, with Torque 1.2.
You don't need the new TNL stuff, most of it is already in TGE. Deciding whether or not to support shaders is a business decision. Does your game require cutting edge graphics to be successful or not? If it does, then it is a $150 decision on your part. I hope this does not break the bank. Everybody on this site is funding their own development. That is a given. GG continues to lower the bar for indies to allow them to compete with what the big companies are doing. You have to make the final decisions as to whether your game or your business plan can support the extra $150. If that is too much for a true shader based game engine, you may have to look elsewhere.
GG will continue to make new technologies, and some of them will cost more money. This is just a fact of life, and at every point along the way, everybody on the site will have to decide if it makes ecomonic sense to upgrade to the new technology. GG can provide great technologies, a lot of community support, a place to sell your game if it is fun, and do all we can to help, but in the end, it is the developer that has to pull it all together to make a business that works.
$100 did not buy you indentured servitude to some of the best developers in the industry for life. It bought you a license to all of the source code to a particular game engine that is perfectly capable of making games that can be sold. On that point we already delivered. As a point of interest, we will make well over $200,000 from Marble Blast after paying all of our royalties. This is performance proof that you CAN make money from Torque based games.
As a separate issue, GarageGames is a great community that can help you make your game. There will be new products and technolgies within that community that cost additional money. I hope that is not seen as some insidious plot. We think long and hard about how to continue to advocate for indies and do what is best, but in the end we want to make more than minimum wage. Even most Open Source projects now-days have founders that are making money. We have always stated that we intend to make money. I hope the fact that we need to make money does not make GarageGames any less of a company.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
#5
I'm sorry if you feel like you might get flamed. I don't think you will. Asking questions is ok. Actually, it's probably good to have somebody playing devil's advocate and looking for any potential down-sides to what GarageGames is doing.
That said... there really isn't a down side. Many successful games have been built on Torque technology. Many more are in the works. Torque 1.2 tech rocks, and if it's enough for your product, you are set. You don't have to buy anything.
On the other hand, if you feel you need shader support and cutting-edge, next-generation technology for your game or project to be a success, then the new tech is for you. Of course, brand-spanking-new, cutting-edge tech isn't free.
But then again, it is almost free. A $150 upgrade package for such awesome, next-gen tech is unbelievalbe. You can't find something like this anywhere else. As Jeff said, it boils down to a business decision. Is the $150 per programmer expenditure worth it to your game?
If so, then rock on. In this case, your game needs shaders. Before the recent announcments, you were left in a position where your game needed shaders, but you had no good place to get them. Now, for the incredibly low early-adopter price of $150, you'll have shader support.
I think that you are aware, having been around a while, that GarageGames is all about doing everything possible to help indie gamers. I think you are a good guy who, maybe, sees the downside to changes rather than the upside.
I guess all I'm saying is there really isn't a down-side.
You're not being forced to buy anything. And even if you were... come on... $150 for next-gen, KICKASS, technology is a joke. To find an equivalent anywhere else, you'd have to go to the DOOM3, HL2, or Unreal3 engine... and, as you well know, $150 isn't even in the ballpark there. Try $500,000, minimum. Again, thats $150 vs HALF-A-MILLION or more.
I think it is *AWESOME* that a company is offering comparable next-gen technology to indie gamers at such an incredibly low price.
As for TNL... don't freak. Maybe it seems like GarageGames is trying to piecemeal their product.. charging $150 for shaders and... ???who knows how much???? for TNL. Oh my gosh! But don't freak... I promise, that is not what GarageGames is about.
Wait until the final announcements on TNL before making up your mind. Just chill for a couple weeks.
GarageGames, and the people who work here, comprise a fair-minded, intelligent, pro-user group that is all about enabling the little guy. In the near future, you can have technology that puts you on an even playing field with the biggest players in the industry.
GG isn't piece-mealing anything. If you are skeptical, wait a couple weeks for the final announcements before jumping to a judgment.
Again, I understand you are just asking questions. It is hard to understand what's going on without complete information being released of yet. But don't sweat it yet. I wish I could give you a super-clear answer at this point. But I can't, so you'll have to trust GG... just a little.
The newest techs, and the accompanying licenses attempt to empower indies, not milk money from them. If you have just a bit of patience, you'll see proof of this claim in the coming weeks.
03/19/2004 (8:02 pm)
John,I'm sorry if you feel like you might get flamed. I don't think you will. Asking questions is ok. Actually, it's probably good to have somebody playing devil's advocate and looking for any potential down-sides to what GarageGames is doing.
That said... there really isn't a down side. Many successful games have been built on Torque technology. Many more are in the works. Torque 1.2 tech rocks, and if it's enough for your product, you are set. You don't have to buy anything.
On the other hand, if you feel you need shader support and cutting-edge, next-generation technology for your game or project to be a success, then the new tech is for you. Of course, brand-spanking-new, cutting-edge tech isn't free.
But then again, it is almost free. A $150 upgrade package for such awesome, next-gen tech is unbelievalbe. You can't find something like this anywhere else. As Jeff said, it boils down to a business decision. Is the $150 per programmer expenditure worth it to your game?
If so, then rock on. In this case, your game needs shaders. Before the recent announcments, you were left in a position where your game needed shaders, but you had no good place to get them. Now, for the incredibly low early-adopter price of $150, you'll have shader support.
I think that you are aware, having been around a while, that GarageGames is all about doing everything possible to help indie gamers. I think you are a good guy who, maybe, sees the downside to changes rather than the upside.
I guess all I'm saying is there really isn't a down-side.
You're not being forced to buy anything. And even if you were... come on... $150 for next-gen, KICKASS, technology is a joke. To find an equivalent anywhere else, you'd have to go to the DOOM3, HL2, or Unreal3 engine... and, as you well know, $150 isn't even in the ballpark there. Try $500,000, minimum. Again, thats $150 vs HALF-A-MILLION or more.
I think it is *AWESOME* that a company is offering comparable next-gen technology to indie gamers at such an incredibly low price.
As for TNL... don't freak. Maybe it seems like GarageGames is trying to piecemeal their product.. charging $150 for shaders and... ???who knows how much???? for TNL. Oh my gosh! But don't freak... I promise, that is not what GarageGames is about.
Wait until the final announcements on TNL before making up your mind. Just chill for a couple weeks.
GarageGames, and the people who work here, comprise a fair-minded, intelligent, pro-user group that is all about enabling the little guy. In the near future, you can have technology that puts you on an even playing field with the biggest players in the industry.
GG isn't piece-mealing anything. If you are skeptical, wait a couple weeks for the final announcements before jumping to a judgment.
Again, I understand you are just asking questions. It is hard to understand what's going on without complete information being released of yet. But don't sweat it yet. I wish I could give you a super-clear answer at this point. But I can't, so you'll have to trust GG... just a little.
The newest techs, and the accompanying licenses attempt to empower indies, not milk money from them. If you have just a bit of patience, you'll see proof of this claim in the coming weeks.
#6
I really bought Torque for a look at the network code alone. Even if I never used it I wanted to at least SEE what TOP NOTCH C++ netcode looked like ;-)
I started down the path of separating the netcode out and got side tracked with my "real job". I will gladly pay for TNL when I get back to my project. Can't really call it a "game" per se, it is much more.
Same with the updated graphics capabilities. Even if it was $500 US, it is worth more than that time wise to code it myself.
Regardless of what the piecemeal approach costs I am pretty sure it will be MORE THAN REASONABLELY priced. I think some people have gotten spoiled and just want everything for free ( or close enough as to be free for all intents and purposes ). If you want that go to sourceforge.net!
John no-one is MAKING you HAVE to buy the new products/features. For your $100 US you got way more than $100 US worth of product an EXTREMELY liberal license and as all these people argue all the time you don't NEED eyecandy to make a fun game right!
03/19/2004 (8:22 pm)
Well I for one think the track that you guys are taking is AWESOME, I told Jeff this 2 years ago!I really bought Torque for a look at the network code alone. Even if I never used it I wanted to at least SEE what TOP NOTCH C++ netcode looked like ;-)
I started down the path of separating the netcode out and got side tracked with my "real job". I will gladly pay for TNL when I get back to my project. Can't really call it a "game" per se, it is much more.
Same with the updated graphics capabilities. Even if it was $500 US, it is worth more than that time wise to code it myself.
Regardless of what the piecemeal approach costs I am pretty sure it will be MORE THAN REASONABLELY priced. I think some people have gotten spoiled and just want everything for free ( or close enough as to be free for all intents and purposes ). If you want that go to sourceforge.net!
John no-one is MAKING you HAVE to buy the new products/features. For your $100 US you got way more than $100 US worth of product an EXTREMELY liberal license and as all these people argue all the time you don't NEED eyecandy to make a fun game right!
#7
Yeah TNL is going to rock. Don't sweat "piece-mealing" yet though. I am so impressed with this company. Everyone is so passionate, and has the best interests of small developers and gamers in mind at all times.
03/19/2004 (8:37 pm)
Hehe...Yeah TNL is going to rock. Don't sweat "piece-mealing" yet though. I am so impressed with this company. Everyone is so passionate, and has the best interests of small developers and gamers in mind at all times.
#8
03/19/2004 (8:51 pm)
Personally, I'm fine with GG going down this route. This keeps the 'normal' Torque free of Shaders, which means for stuff that I want to do for older hardware (bigger market) I don't have to worry about it. For stuff that needs shaders - no problem, I plunk down my money. If I'm going to do something that will support the art resources for shaders, then an extra $200 isn't that much of an issue. Most people get what they want, no matter what direction they are headed.
#9
03/19/2004 (9:07 pm)
Yeah, personally, I would rather see it this way for all the reasons Davis stated.
#10
GarageGames is just living what we preach about gaming. Build it to scale (make it fun) and ship when its ready and keep adding to it as your fan base expands. This is an important strategy to keep in mind as you look at how long games take to build (especially as indie's).
The reason games have gotten so big with so much raw poundage (sometimes at the expense of fun) is to satisfy the retail channel model and the buyers at Walmart - not the game fans. That is old thinking now that we live in a world of e-commerce and broadband delivery of fun game bits.
We're out to help indie's build great games. You want to wait until all our tech is done before we let you in to play with the code?
03/19/2004 (9:24 pm)
Dark Horizons: Lore is scheduled to launch April 2nd with an early adopter price of $24.95. GarageGames is just living what we preach about gaming. Build it to scale (make it fun) and ship when its ready and keep adding to it as your fan base expands. This is an important strategy to keep in mind as you look at how long games take to build (especially as indie's).
The reason games have gotten so big with so much raw poundage (sometimes at the expense of fun) is to satisfy the retail channel model and the buyers at Walmart - not the game fans. That is old thinking now that we live in a world of e-commerce and broadband delivery of fun game bits.
We're out to help indie's build great games. You want to wait until all our tech is done before we let you in to play with the code?
#11
Of course, I am a hobbyist and not an indepdendent. I don't have to put a game out every six or so months. Even though I am not the targetted party, I feel that what garage games is doing, helps me to produce a game that I have always wanted to make.
Thank you to GarageGames and its employees plus its great community.
03/19/2004 (9:31 pm)
Having a version of torque that supports shaders should not block you from targetting older hardware, actually it will help you target older and newer hardware at the same time. If GarageGames implemented it right (which I am pretty sure they did) there should be some sort of fallback mechanism so that the hardware that does not support a version of fragment shaders or does not support shaders at all is able to get good looking graphics anyway (just not as good as the shaders one).Of course, I am a hobbyist and not an indepdendent. I don't have to put a game out every six or so months. Even though I am not the targetted party, I feel that what garage games is doing, helps me to produce a game that I have always wanted to make.
Thank you to GarageGames and its employees plus its great community.
#12
Damnit I want my money back.
Nah once again my direction is misunderstood. I'm not complaining about it really, rather just trying to get an idea of if that is what the plan is. Basically i'm trying to pre-plan the next 6 months or so, and the more information I have the better. You guys should feel happy that i'm complaining I can't afford what you're doing. It means i'm happy about your products :)
03/19/2004 (10:19 pm)
Quote:$100 did not buy you indentured servitude to some of the best developers in the industry for life.
Damnit I want my money back.
Nah once again my direction is misunderstood. I'm not complaining about it really, rather just trying to get an idea of if that is what the plan is. Basically i'm trying to pre-plan the next 6 months or so, and the more information I have the better. You guys should feel happy that i'm complaining I can't afford what you're doing. It means i'm happy about your products :)
Quote:Don't take it that way. It is my nature to question everything around me, turn over every stone before I walk across.
You are right, this will probably appear as a flame, but it seems as though we can't do anything right for you.
#13
03/19/2004 (10:57 pm)
You should learn how to turn over stones without annoying the critters that live beneath them...
#14
03/20/2004 (5:34 am)
Personally, I hope most new Torque technology _is_ offered piecemeal. I am approaching my game development the same way I approach building my computers. I simply cannot afford a $3000 alienware. I can however afford a $100 case, and reuse an old PII board. Next payday I can afford to upgrade the MB, another payday or two I can afford to replace the video card, etc. Eventually, I will have that alienware, minus the stupid green color :) 
#15
I don't like your new approach with the price, but that is irrelevant to my question.
If I continue to work with 1.2 WITHOUT modifying the render mechanisms, and later on discover that my game is starting to look "like a working game" and that I want to license this new shader thing, can it be done without breaking my already existing code into pieces?
Is it easy to upgrade without MUCH knowledge of C++?
If so, then I can understand the price..
03/20/2004 (6:20 am)
Jeff Tunnel:I don't like your new approach with the price, but that is irrelevant to my question.
If I continue to work with 1.2 WITHOUT modifying the render mechanisms, and later on discover that my game is starting to look "like a working game" and that I want to license this new shader thing, can it be done without breaking my already existing code into pieces?
Is it easy to upgrade without MUCH knowledge of C++?
If so, then I can understand the price..
#16
That said, if you haven't added any rendering code or gui controls, you should be able to move over cleanly. If you have added any rendering code at all you'll have to port it to the new system.
We're not rewriting everything in TSE, just the graphics part of things. The game part of your code will run untouched in the vast majority of cases.
03/20/2004 (3:33 pm)
You will need to be comfortable with C++ to do the upgrade safely.That said, if you haven't added any rendering code or gui controls, you should be able to move over cleanly. If you have added any rendering code at all you'll have to port it to the new system.
We're not rewriting everything in TSE, just the graphics part of things. The game part of your code will run untouched in the vast majority of cases.
#17
03/20/2004 (7:32 pm)
I thought I read in Jeff's IOTD that the new technology will be based on DirectX 9 shader technology. Does that mean a move to using DirectX natively? From what I gather, Torque is currently an OpenGL engine with a DirectX wrapper only - no native support for DirectX?
#18
We already are using a different engine than TGE...but are very very interested in the TNL (just because it is going to save us a lot of extra work and it is tried and tested code).
I personally believe that selling piecemeal technology with a view towards integeration with other technology is a great covering move... i think renderware does the same thing...
It would be nice to have the Torque AI Framework... or a Torque Physics Frameowrk... or Event the Torque Scripting Engine being offered as a discrete piece for integeration with other techs...
that is just my two cents
03/20/2004 (8:00 pm)
@JeffWe already are using a different engine than TGE...but are very very interested in the TNL (just because it is going to save us a lot of extra work and it is tried and tested code).
I personally believe that selling piecemeal technology with a view towards integeration with other technology is a great covering move... i think renderware does the same thing...
It would be nice to have the Torque AI Framework... or a Torque Physics Frameowrk... or Event the Torque Scripting Engine being offered as a discrete piece for integeration with other techs...
that is just my two cents
#19
Also brought up in a conversation with several others was a confusion of net code. They apparently half read or was confused by several comments made:
As I have read and researched it, you have not removed the netcode from the engine that I can see. Please clearify this so it does not cause confusion. You have to remember that there is people that have bought the engine and they are completely new to game making. Because of the low price you will have alot of newbies that don't clearly understand what is going on. I can hear them now..." I just payed $100, now they want me to pay another $295...what the crap...." you know the rest. Just clarify a little more on how it will effect the current engine license.
@John: Thanks for asking the questions about the new licenses,TNL and the Shader thingy. Lots of others have been wondering also. It's great that you asked these questions.
@GG employees: I think Torque is a great engine and do not care to use any other. I know that you guys are excited about what is happening. But, please remember that you have people new to game developement here as well. You need to clarify how it effects the license they purchased. It is all new to them and confusing.
Also:
comments like these directed toward John for asking a perfectly good question, makes me think twice about puchasing future items.
Please just take a few minutes to clarify how it effects the license. People here want the engine to have a great future and the people that make it happen.
03/20/2004 (8:51 pm)
I just want to make a few comments about what I think John is asking. It has been a concern to me and as well as to several other sdk owners. Our concerns of what type of pricing packages will be offered and what will be included in the packages? One thing I remember when I was looking for an engine was the way that 3d GameStudio had laid out their packages on thier front page. For someone new and trying to start to learn, it gave them what options they had in one complete table. I hope in the future that GG would have something similar.Also brought up in a conversation with several others was a confusion of net code. They apparently half read or was confused by several comments made:
Quote:I betcha what is actually happening is that GarageGames sees the amazing quality of their netcode and decided to pull it out so other engines could include it.
Quote:the TNL seems to be a separate thing where Mark has pulled the networking from Torque 1.2 and enhanced it with some new features to sell it separately.
As I have read and researched it, you have not removed the netcode from the engine that I can see. Please clearify this so it does not cause confusion. You have to remember that there is people that have bought the engine and they are completely new to game making. Because of the low price you will have alot of newbies that don't clearly understand what is going on. I can hear them now..." I just payed $100, now they want me to pay another $295...what the crap...." you know the rest. Just clarify a little more on how it will effect the current engine license.
@John: Thanks for asking the questions about the new licenses,TNL and the Shader thingy. Lots of others have been wondering also. It's great that you asked these questions.
@GG employees: I think Torque is a great engine and do not care to use any other. I know that you guys are excited about what is happening. But, please remember that you have people new to game developement here as well. You need to clarify how it effects the license they purchased. It is all new to them and confusing.
Also:
Quote:You are right, this will probably appear as a flame, but it seems as though we can't do anything right for you.
Quote:You should learn how to turn over stones without annoying the critters that live beneath them...
comments like these directed toward John for asking a perfectly good question, makes me think twice about puchasing future items.
Please just take a few minutes to clarify how it effects the license. People here want the engine to have a great future and the people that make it happen.
#20
Also, there is an upgrade path from TGE to TSE, as described in the news posts.
John is asking perfectly good questions, but somehow his threads always seem to end up getting sort of heated. They certainly get Jeff going. :) I think a touch of tact and circumspection could help with this.
We're hardly forcing you to buy our product, and I don't think anything we're doing is particularly overpriced. I don't think this is going to change any time soon. I think it's the attitude some people seem to have that we're going to try to screw them over as soon as possible that gets old for us...
03/21/2004 (12:26 am)
We're not removing the net code from anything. Just making a clean, seperate copy of it you can use in your own products.Also, there is an upgrade path from TGE to TSE, as described in the news posts.
John is asking perfectly good questions, but somehow his threads always seem to end up getting sort of heated. They certainly get Jeff going. :) I think a touch of tact and circumspection could help with this.
We're hardly forcing you to buy our product, and I don't think anything we're doing is particularly overpriced. I don't think this is going to change any time soon. I think it's the attitude some people seem to have that we're going to try to screw them over as soon as possible that gets old for us...
Torque Owner Steven Jackson
Edit: the price for Torque 2 will be $150 for you if you buy it while the deal lasts, since you own Torque 1.2. If you do not already own, you'll be paying $295 for it. They haven't announced a price on TNL yet, unless I didn't catch it :)