Searching for the right engine, please help
by Ryan Zec · in General Discussion · 03/14/2004 (2:49 pm) · 34 replies
This is the game i am planning to make and a list of features that the game with support (or goal list of feature the game will support):
* 3D (I don't need the better graphics but I would like very good graphics, maybe something a little cartoonish) RPG along the lines of a zelda type game. (it's goping to have a deep storyline and everything)
*Leveling system of some sort, configurable.
*Inventory System.
*Health System.
*Magic System.
*Sound.
*Mouse and keyboard support.
*Relistic (and semi-cartoonish) Water.
*Fast renderer.
*Supports DirectX 9 and now early then 8 becuase i dont what to have out dated DirectX system, or Support for OpenGL, both would be nice too.
*Fog, Lighting and Thunder, and other weather/natural effects. (the more the better)
*Supports Visual C++ 6.0 at a minimun, and Visual c++.net 2003 support would be the best.
That is just a list of the main feature I would like the engine to be able to support. I know that there is no engine that I can get out there that has these features already built in(or maybe there is, but doubt it), But What I am looking for is something that supports the most but in clearly written code and the code is documented when and the is "some type" of manual for the engine it's self that is also clear readable. I know for alot of that stuff I will need to write my own code for, but I am willing to do that. As far I have 2 main options, and still looking for more:
1. Torque : Already own becuase of a gift to me but am find it hard to read code and modify for my needs, graphics are not the best either.
2. Cipher : Looking at it, it seem to support the graphics very well but just need some more feedback to decide if it is right for me and my project.
Thanks for the time in reading this, and i hope to hear back soon.
Thank You
Ryan Zec.
* 3D (I don't need the better graphics but I would like very good graphics, maybe something a little cartoonish) RPG along the lines of a zelda type game. (it's goping to have a deep storyline and everything)
*Leveling system of some sort, configurable.
*Inventory System.
*Health System.
*Magic System.
*Sound.
*Mouse and keyboard support.
*Relistic (and semi-cartoonish) Water.
*Fast renderer.
*Supports DirectX 9 and now early then 8 becuase i dont what to have out dated DirectX system, or Support for OpenGL, both would be nice too.
*Fog, Lighting and Thunder, and other weather/natural effects. (the more the better)
*Supports Visual C++ 6.0 at a minimun, and Visual c++.net 2003 support would be the best.
That is just a list of the main feature I would like the engine to be able to support. I know that there is no engine that I can get out there that has these features already built in(or maybe there is, but doubt it), But What I am looking for is something that supports the most but in clearly written code and the code is documented when and the is "some type" of manual for the engine it's self that is also clear readable. I know for alot of that stuff I will need to write my own code for, but I am willing to do that. As far I have 2 main options, and still looking for more:
1. Torque : Already own becuase of a gift to me but am find it hard to read code and modify for my needs, graphics are not the best either.
2. Cipher : Looking at it, it seem to support the graphics very well but just need some more feedback to decide if it is right for me and my project.
Thanks for the time in reading this, and i hope to hear back soon.
Thank You
Ryan Zec.
About the author
#2
3D (I don't need the better graphics but I would like very good graphics, maybe something a little cartoonish) RPG along the lines of a zelda type game
"Or Mod an already existing RPG styled game
Neverwinter Nights
Morrowind"
Morrowind it not the type of rpg game I want to build and NWN it D&D Based, which I really don;t like. I don't what to mod a game, But I will be willing to mod a engine, but the more the engiine has for me already, the better.
Thanks for the ideas, there good , but i guess just not what I am looking for.
Any more idea would be great.
03/14/2004 (4:46 pm)
"1. RPG Maker" : It is 2d from what i can remember add as i stated above:3D (I don't need the better graphics but I would like very good graphics, maybe something a little cartoonish) RPG along the lines of a zelda type game
"Or Mod an already existing RPG styled game
Neverwinter Nights
Morrowind"
Morrowind it not the type of rpg game I want to build and NWN it D&D Based, which I really don;t like. I don't what to mod a game, But I will be willing to mod a engine, but the more the engiine has for me already, the better.
Thanks for the ideas, there good , but i guess just not what I am looking for.
Any more idea would be great.
#3
03/14/2004 (5:19 pm)
You can't mod an engine, only a game.
#4
You mention things like "magic system" like you expect that to be built for you in an engine. It won't be. Not unless you mod a game. An "engine" is simply a generic framework upon which you build the game itself. That means you will be coding a magic system from scratch, coding a levelling system from scratch, coding an inventory system from scratch, etc.
Really everything you mention will be found in any 3d engine if you program them. 90% of what you ask for is application level/game level features, meaning you will need to code them for your game. Torque, as well as just about any other 3d engine out there, will do the basic features you need. If you then code the game level features you need (levelling system, Inventory System, Health System, Magic System) then you will be all set.
03/14/2004 (5:25 pm)
Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you really understand what you are doing yet :)You mention things like "magic system" like you expect that to be built for you in an engine. It won't be. Not unless you mod a game. An "engine" is simply a generic framework upon which you build the game itself. That means you will be coding a magic system from scratch, coding a levelling system from scratch, coding an inventory system from scratch, etc.
Really everything you mention will be found in any 3d engine if you program them. 90% of what you ask for is application level/game level features, meaning you will need to code them for your game. Torque, as well as just about any other 3d engine out there, will do the basic features you need. If you then code the game level features you need (levelling system, Inventory System, Health System, Magic System) then you will be all set.
#5
MMORPG Creation Engine
never tried it. Requires you to purchase some other engine.
But it really hard to spec something like you have and not end up with Morrowwind, NWN or RPGMaker. The details you speak of are going to force a design towards a certain look and feel. If you are picky about that look and feel you want find an off the self Engine that does what you want AND looks the way you want.
Just some thoughts.
03/14/2004 (6:14 pm)
You could try a package like:MMORPG Creation Engine
never tried it. Requires you to purchase some other engine.
But it really hard to spec something like you have and not end up with Morrowwind, NWN or RPGMaker. The details you speak of are going to force a design towards a certain look and feel. If you are picky about that look and feel you want find an off the self Engine that does what you want AND looks the way you want.
Just some thoughts.
#6
03/14/2004 (6:15 pm)
I know that, I am just asking if there are any engines the have any of these feature include the main ones. I would find it hard to believe the 0% of all game engines that i can buy don't support thing things.
#7
dan : That might be a path for me, thanks I will check it out, I can't rush into buying a game engine becuase it need to be the right choice.
thanks for the help, anymore will be great.
03/14/2004 (6:26 pm)
Also when I said "mod", I meant add code to the engine to get what i realy want or close to it as i can.dan : That might be a path for me, thanks I will check it out, I can't rush into buying a game engine becuase it need to be the right choice.
thanks for the help, anymore will be great.
#8
The features I called out won't be in a game engine because they don't BELONG in a game engine. A game engine is a generic base platform upon which to build. Non-generic features don't belong in one. The only place you would possibly find those features would be in a higher level system, not a game engine, but something like an RPG maker. You don't get specific features like that prebuilt for you. You just don't. If you think you do then you are in for a rude awakening in this industry i'm afraid. Any application that DOES give you high level features like that is really not a game engine. It is more of a cookie cutter idiots game maker which no one actually uses beyond personal experimentation. You don't make a commercial game with one. I'm sorry if I sound like i'm venting, but it just never ceases to amaze me that people think making a game means putting all these pre-built pieces together and wala they have a game. Making a game means spending arduous days after days after months after years coding all the pieces you need.
03/14/2004 (6:28 pm)
Quote:I would find it hard to believe the 0% of all game engines that i can buy don't support thing things.
The features I called out won't be in a game engine because they don't BELONG in a game engine. A game engine is a generic base platform upon which to build. Non-generic features don't belong in one. The only place you would possibly find those features would be in a higher level system, not a game engine, but something like an RPG maker. You don't get specific features like that prebuilt for you. You just don't. If you think you do then you are in for a rude awakening in this industry i'm afraid. Any application that DOES give you high level features like that is really not a game engine. It is more of a cookie cutter idiots game maker which no one actually uses beyond personal experimentation. You don't make a commercial game with one. I'm sorry if I sound like i'm venting, but it just never ceases to amaze me that people think making a game means putting all these pre-built pieces together and wala they have a game. Making a game means spending arduous days after days after months after years coding all the pieces you need.
#9
03/14/2004 (6:36 pm)
I know that and as i said before I DON'T mind add the code for the features I stated! I am just looking for a Engine that has the best general features (like I know cipher has better GRAPHICS the torque, and I think torque mutliplayer support is better than cipher but i really dont care about network for this game).
#10
Seems you have asked this question basically before:
click here for the thread
Not sure if you will get any other advice that what this thread and the other one already stated. Most people who are here find Torque fits their needs (or they wouldn't be here posting. They would be off at another engines forums)
PS- From the way I see it all your "requests" are met with Torque out of the box or with resources available here at GG. Looks like what you are really looking for is an engine that is easier to mod for yourself being your big complaints are manuals and code readability.
03/14/2004 (6:37 pm)
Ryan,Seems you have asked this question basically before:
click here for the thread
Not sure if you will get any other advice that what this thread and the other one already stated. Most people who are here find Torque fits their needs (or they wouldn't be here posting. They would be off at another engines forums)
PS- From the way I see it all your "requests" are met with Torque out of the box or with resources available here at GG. Looks like what you are really looking for is an engine that is easier to mod for yourself being your big complaints are manuals and code readability.
#11
03/14/2004 (7:14 pm)
Well as I already stated myself, Torque will work for you. It seems you don't want us to say Torque but i'm not sure what you expected since you posted it here. I've never messed with Cipher, but I can say that with only a small amount of work, and good modelers/texture artists, Torque's graphics can be visually stunning.
#12
03/14/2004 (7:31 pm)
Well then can someone point me to a download for the torque code document? I dont want the online version.
#13
03/15/2004 (5:10 am)
I'm not sure there is much of a cohesive offline documentation. Hell there isn't much documentation at all officially. 90% of what i've learned came from resources and forum posts to be honest. Its Torques one major drawback.
#14
There is so much documentation around that it'll take you weeks to read through it... just try www.garagegames.com/docs/torque.sdk/index.php as a starting point... if that still isn't enough, run Doxygen and you'll be busy reading until 2006 :P
And always remember: there is no "MakeMyGame.exe" ;)
03/15/2004 (6:37 am)
Guys, I'm beginning to think you have been hiding behind some bush for the last year or so... :PThere is so much documentation around that it'll take you weeks to read through it... just try www.garagegames.com/docs/torque.sdk/index.php as a starting point... if that still isn't enough, run Doxygen and you'll be busy reading until 2006 :P
And always remember: there is no "MakeMyGame.exe" ;)
#15
Anyone buying Torque for the first time is going to be hopelessly lost with no sense of direction. I'm sorry if I feel that hasn't changed, but its just how I feel.
Even a good comprehensive reference of the scripting side would be a boon, but it doesn't exist. My point was that 90% of the reference for Torque is pieced together from resources and forum posts. At least it was for me.
Thi is NOT intended as a flame of GarageGames, so please don't take it that harshly. It is simply a point of fact. Torque is an AWESOME SDK. I'm more than happy about my purchase. However, that doesn't change the fact that every single day i'm frustrated by something or other because of lack of documentation.
03/15/2004 (6:52 am)
Stefan there is SOME comprehensive documentation no doubt, but i'm afraid people are deluding themselves if they think everything is covered. There is no good overview of the mechanics of Torque, and no comprehensive manual or reference to the sciprting side which is where 90% of the work is done in most games developed with Torque. Calling Doxygen output "comprehensive" documentation is pretty slacking too. Doxygen simply outputs basic comments on the C code. Some of it is pretty in depth, some of it isn't, but none of it is a replacement for a good set od documentation. I've been programming for nearly 15 years, with about 5 of that in game development. I've worked on titles big and small, own my own development company and have worked on 2 3D game engines. Please don't think i'm looking for a push button make my game because i'm not, but having to spend months just trying to get a handle on the basic architecture and flow of Torque because there isn't any decent documentation in my book is frustrating.Anyone buying Torque for the first time is going to be hopelessly lost with no sense of direction. I'm sorry if I feel that hasn't changed, but its just how I feel.
Even a good comprehensive reference of the scripting side would be a boon, but it doesn't exist. My point was that 90% of the reference for Torque is pieced together from resources and forum posts. At least it was for me.
Thi is NOT intended as a flame of GarageGames, so please don't take it that harshly. It is simply a point of fact. Torque is an AWESOME SDK. I'm more than happy about my purchase. However, that doesn't change the fact that every single day i'm frustrated by something or other because of lack of documentation.
#16
Those would be game extensions to the engine. If they were included as a base, you'd simply be modifying them like you would NWN or Morrowind or Eamon.
But I'll give you a starting point that took me a few moments to find:
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/ - Irrlicht Engine
http://www.skyesurfer.net/keless/IrrLicht/RPG/ - Basic RPG framework
http://www.saigumi.net/archives/000021.html - Seemless worlds
http://www.saigumi.net/archives/000027.html - Repeating seemless worlds
You can do this with Torque, 3D GameStudio, Crystal Space, Nebula, Quake/2, Cypher, DarkBasic, etc as long as you have a solid design document to work from which outlines your magic, experience, health, and weapons systems perfectly. You'll still have to extend the engine towards your application, but since I'm sure you have a good design document it shouldn't be a huge problem. A lot of work...just not a huge problem.
03/15/2004 (7:15 am)
Quote:*Leveling system of some sort, configurable.
*Inventory System.
*Health System.
*Magic System.
Those would be game extensions to the engine. If they were included as a base, you'd simply be modifying them like you would NWN or Morrowind or Eamon.
But I'll give you a starting point that took me a few moments to find:
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/ - Irrlicht Engine
http://www.skyesurfer.net/keless/IrrLicht/RPG/ - Basic RPG framework
http://www.saigumi.net/archives/000021.html - Seemless worlds
http://www.saigumi.net/archives/000027.html - Repeating seemless worlds
You can do this with Torque, 3D GameStudio, Crystal Space, Nebula, Quake/2, Cypher, DarkBasic, etc as long as you have a solid design document to work from which outlines your magic, experience, health, and weapons systems perfectly. You'll still have to extend the engine towards your application, but since I'm sure you have a good design document it shouldn't be a huge problem. A lot of work...just not a huge problem.
#17
OK you picked Zelda as your example game type.. Was that Zelda 1? 2D overhead? Zelda 2? Overhead with side scrolling sections? Zelda 3? Isometric? Zelda 64? 3D First/Third person? Zelda Game Cube? cell shaded 3D First/Third person
Solution: Torque has it.. but you already know that.
OK that's a bit too open ended a question. Do you want an experiance / level based system. Or do you want a Skill / level based system? A combination? Skill decay? Lots of possibilities
Solution: Pick a system and you can write it in TorqueScript
Again open ended question. Do you want an unlimited inventory? Weight based? Size based? A combination? Expandable with bags / backpacks?
Solution: Pick a system and you can write it in TorqueScript
See above "open ended" answers, again this is something that has 1001 possible implementations
Solution: Pick a system and you can write it in TorqueScript
Solution: Torque can play at least a couple sound formats
Solution: Yep Torque can see mouse and keyboard
How good is your artist?
Fast is such a relative term...
Solution: Torque is pretty damn fast in my opinion, especially when you're on a map with no trees or buildings and a visible distance of 10 meters.
DirectX is backwards compatible
OpenGL is crossplatform..
Solution: Torque supports OpenGL and it is cross platform... DirectX 9? I'm sure you could pay someone to convert it over.
Yes, Yes, need to find some good quality sound files, yep snow would be nice.
Solution: Torque does this already
Solution: Torque supports both, and a few others.
03/15/2004 (11:10 am)
Lets take a look at your list:Quote:
* 3D (I don't need the better graphics but I would like very good graphics, maybe something a little cartoonish) RPG along the lines of a zelda type game. (it's goping to have a deep storyline and everything)
OK you picked Zelda as your example game type.. Was that Zelda 1? 2D overhead? Zelda 2? Overhead with side scrolling sections? Zelda 3? Isometric? Zelda 64? 3D First/Third person? Zelda Game Cube? cell shaded 3D First/Third person
Solution: Torque has it.. but you already know that.
Quote:
*Leveling system of some sort, configurable.
OK that's a bit too open ended a question. Do you want an experiance / level based system. Or do you want a Skill / level based system? A combination? Skill decay? Lots of possibilities
Solution: Pick a system and you can write it in TorqueScript
Quote:
*Inventory System.
Again open ended question. Do you want an unlimited inventory? Weight based? Size based? A combination? Expandable with bags / backpacks?
Solution: Pick a system and you can write it in TorqueScript
Quote:
*Health System.
[quote]
See above "open ended" answers, again this is something that has 1001 possible implementations
Solution: Pick a system and you can write it in TorqueScript
[quote]
*Magic System.
See above "open ended" answers, again this is something that has 1001 possible implementations
Solution: Pick a system and you can write it in TorqueScript
Quote:
*Sound.
Solution: Torque can play at least a couple sound formats
Quote:
*Mouse and keyboard support.
Solution: Yep Torque can see mouse and keyboard
Quote:
*Relistic (and semi-cartoonish) Water.
How good is your artist?
Quote:
*Fast renderer.
Fast is such a relative term...
Solution: Torque is pretty damn fast in my opinion, especially when you're on a map with no trees or buildings and a visible distance of 10 meters.
Quote:
*Supports DirectX 9 and now early then 8 becuase i dont what to have out dated DirectX system, or Support for OpenGL, both would be nice too.
DirectX is backwards compatible
OpenGL is crossplatform..
Solution: Torque supports OpenGL and it is cross platform... DirectX 9? I'm sure you could pay someone to convert it over.
Quote:
*Fog, Lighting and Thunder, and other weather/natural effects. (the more the better)
Yes, Yes, need to find some good quality sound files, yep snow would be nice.
Solution: Torque does this already
Quote:
*Supports Visual C++ 6.0 at a minimun, and Visual c++.net 2003 support would be the best.
Solution: Torque supports both, and a few others.
#18
Bottom line, Ryan: No one is going to program your game for you.
Why not mod Realm Wars?
-Eric F
03/15/2004 (12:25 pm)
Nice, Labby. :)Bottom line, Ryan: No one is going to program your game for you.
Why not mod Realm Wars?
-Eric F
#19
03/15/2004 (1:19 pm)
Tell me, is there even any good documentation of scripting or do i need to figure that out on my own too.
Torque Owner Devon Ly
1. RPG maker
Or Mod an already existing RPG styled game
Neverwinter Nights
Morrowind