Just bought the SDK and... well... SDK it aint...
by Tim Bolin · in Torque Game Engine · 02/26/2004 (7:12 pm) · 115 replies
At least, thats how it seems to me... i had previously been using OGRE, and within an hour of downloading and unzipping the source, i had managed to start a blank project (in vc++ 2003), import a mesh, draw a plane as a "ground" surface, draw a skydome, slap a texture on everything, toss out a light, drop in a camera, compile it, and see the finished product rendered out of the resulting exe...
contrast that with torque, where i have spent the last 8 hours trying to figure out where the FPS demo ends and the engine begins, and im no closer now than i was... and i have to say, WTF?? it is beginning to look like the "demo" is inextricably entwined with the engine itself, and that pretty much anything i do is going to be a mod of the demo... and pretty much all the tutorials support this suspicion...
i have absolutely ZERO interest in modding a demo, example, tutorial, or anything else... i want the class libraries, documentation, and ideally a blank template project so i can do in torque the equivilant of what i did with OGRE...
the main reason i purchased the engine was to have access to the code for audio, physics, network, etc... and i had hoped that it would be pretty clear what did what, what needed to be included where, and how to just initialize a rendering window and start adding objects to a scene, then in time as needed add in the other bits and pieces of the engine code...
so, in short, have i wasted my money? is there any way to just delete the "examples" directory and any and all "demo" code/script/assets/etc and still be able to use the engine? and if so, what is the bare minimum in the way of files i need to link in to my project to simply render a single object on screen as a starting point? if there is no way to do this, im just going to have to suck up the money spent and go back to ogre... it is starting to look like this may not be the best development choice for a turn-based strat game...
maybe the problem is ive gone into the whole torque thing without grasping the big picture... for example, the whole scripting thing... when and where and WHY would i ever want to do anything in script when i could do it in native c++? the scripting seems pretty central to the engine but i cant for the life of me understand why... i suppose it would be handy if you wanted your game to be moddable by its users... which i dont... or handy if you didnt want to code in c++... but i do...
if anyone could point me in the right direction, or point me at a tutorial explaining how to use the engine itself (and not one that touches in even the remotest form the demo code) id certainly appreciate it...
contrast that with torque, where i have spent the last 8 hours trying to figure out where the FPS demo ends and the engine begins, and im no closer now than i was... and i have to say, WTF?? it is beginning to look like the "demo" is inextricably entwined with the engine itself, and that pretty much anything i do is going to be a mod of the demo... and pretty much all the tutorials support this suspicion...
i have absolutely ZERO interest in modding a demo, example, tutorial, or anything else... i want the class libraries, documentation, and ideally a blank template project so i can do in torque the equivilant of what i did with OGRE...
the main reason i purchased the engine was to have access to the code for audio, physics, network, etc... and i had hoped that it would be pretty clear what did what, what needed to be included where, and how to just initialize a rendering window and start adding objects to a scene, then in time as needed add in the other bits and pieces of the engine code...
so, in short, have i wasted my money? is there any way to just delete the "examples" directory and any and all "demo" code/script/assets/etc and still be able to use the engine? and if so, what is the bare minimum in the way of files i need to link in to my project to simply render a single object on screen as a starting point? if there is no way to do this, im just going to have to suck up the money spent and go back to ogre... it is starting to look like this may not be the best development choice for a turn-based strat game...
maybe the problem is ive gone into the whole torque thing without grasping the big picture... for example, the whole scripting thing... when and where and WHY would i ever want to do anything in script when i could do it in native c++? the scripting seems pretty central to the engine but i cant for the life of me understand why... i suppose it would be handy if you wanted your game to be moddable by its users... which i dont... or handy if you didnt want to code in c++... but i do...
if anyone could point me in the right direction, or point me at a tutorial explaining how to use the engine itself (and not one that touches in even the remotest form the demo code) id certainly appreciate it...
#42
That's not a failing of GG or the TGE community, but of you, period.
No where does it ever say that TGE is a set of libraries, and it has never been portrayed as such in all the press about it.
Again, you f**cked up, not anyone else.
Now, you have two choices, both involving biting the bullet :
- use it to learn about game making
- don't use it, and waste a 100 buck (no refunds)
Also, had you really played with the demo before buying and asked a few questions in the forums before buying, you might have had a more realistic outlook on what you were getting in.
And I'm being polite, unlike, hmmm, you :)
02/28/2004 (8:49 am)
Tim, instead of blaming others for your failings, why don't you realize that you approached torque with strong views on what it should be and that the (very) little you read about it just reinforced you in that perception. That's not a failing of GG or the TGE community, but of you, period.
No where does it ever say that TGE is a set of libraries, and it has never been portrayed as such in all the press about it.
Again, you f**cked up, not anyone else.
Now, you have two choices, both involving biting the bullet :
- use it to learn about game making
- don't use it, and waste a 100 buck (no refunds)
Also, had you really played with the demo before buying and asked a few questions in the forums before buying, you might have had a more realistic outlook on what you were getting in.
And I'm being polite, unlike, hmmm, you :)
#43
You have a good point. Its just bull-shit and I personally am getting tired of people talking about torque and saying that its torques fault because they are over there head and haven't bothered to read the docs and understand what they were working on before they started posting messages regarding where do I start or Torque is terrible or the docs are not good enough. People are too quick to pass judment. The docs are very helpful and people have to realize that its not a small thing and there is no simple tutorial regarding here is how you put something on the screen in minutes.
Its big and its not easy to learn a commercial engine and all the people that complain should just go back to playing games and leave the work to the people willing to do it.
As far as tim, I have figured that you are actually wanting to work on your c++ skill and a game is just something that is something for you to work on. It sounds like its about your c++ skill and not about games. I can apprechiate that. Its better then writing little phone book programs or something like that.
You can do it all with torque and you can use it like what you are talking about. It is self contained modules, you just haven't look at it long enough to see it. But hey, if you are wanting to work on your c++ skills then Ogre is the place for you. Steve is very big on design and c++. If you are wanting to dev games then torque is the place for you..
Its just that simple, your purpose is different then the people here. Or thats how I see it anway. No harm dude. Play with ogre it will teach you a lot about c++ and coding. If you deside to dev a game then come back.
Later, Ben
02/28/2004 (9:40 am)
Hey, NicolasYou have a good point. Its just bull-shit and I personally am getting tired of people talking about torque and saying that its torques fault because they are over there head and haven't bothered to read the docs and understand what they were working on before they started posting messages regarding where do I start or Torque is terrible or the docs are not good enough. People are too quick to pass judment. The docs are very helpful and people have to realize that its not a small thing and there is no simple tutorial regarding here is how you put something on the screen in minutes.
Its big and its not easy to learn a commercial engine and all the people that complain should just go back to playing games and leave the work to the people willing to do it.
As far as tim, I have figured that you are actually wanting to work on your c++ skill and a game is just something that is something for you to work on. It sounds like its about your c++ skill and not about games. I can apprechiate that. Its better then writing little phone book programs or something like that.
You can do it all with torque and you can use it like what you are talking about. It is self contained modules, you just haven't look at it long enough to see it. But hey, if you are wanting to work on your c++ skills then Ogre is the place for you. Steve is very big on design and c++. If you are wanting to dev games then torque is the place for you..
Its just that simple, your purpose is different then the people here. Or thats how I see it anway. No harm dude. Play with ogre it will teach you a lot about c++ and coding. If you deside to dev a game then come back.
Later, Ben
#44
The engine is well built and it does a lot. After working with it for a while you begin to appreciate what it does. Your complaint about getting a sinking feeling may be justified if you were not looking to build a game and rather looking for some kind of rendering engine. As far as what all the components do the best way to learn is to dive in with a game project in mind. All the pieces will begin to fit together.
We all feel a sense of pride after working with Torque a while and we defend it if people start attacking it. Thats the sign of a good engine and a strong community. This is the place to be if you want to make your own games.
02/29/2004 (7:05 pm)
Tim, sorry about the exessive use of sarcasm. That was uncalled for. The big picture of game making and how it all fits together is kind of missing at the moment. Getting into Torque for the first time can be a bit overwhelming.The engine is well built and it does a lot. After working with it for a while you begin to appreciate what it does. Your complaint about getting a sinking feeling may be justified if you were not looking to build a game and rather looking for some kind of rendering engine. As far as what all the components do the best way to learn is to dive in with a game project in mind. All the pieces will begin to fit together.
We all feel a sense of pride after working with Torque a while and we defend it if people start attacking it. Thats the sign of a good engine and a strong community. This is the place to be if you want to make your own games.
#45
John H.
02/29/2004 (7:13 pm)
Guess I found another gold post to cut-n-paste into my personal Torque Book heh. There are some nuggets of knowledge in this one that have open my eyes to a lot of stuff heh.John H.
#46
John H.
02/29/2004 (8:03 pm)
Guess I found another gold post to cut-n-paste into my personal Torque Book heh. There are some nuggets of knowledge in this one that have open my eyes to a lot of stuff heh.John H.
#47
I'm not siding, I am juust learning, but TT is FPS. You still chase around terrain fast shooting at stuff, you can just see your chr instead of being inside the tank. The play is otherwise IDENTICAL.
03/01/2004 (9:51 am)
Uh, Jeff, Think Tanks IS an FPS game. The fact that you see your chr is neither here nor there. I'm not siding, I am juust learning, but TT is FPS. You still chase around terrain fast shooting at stuff, you can just see your chr instead of being inside the tank. The play is otherwise IDENTICAL.
#48
Shooter is the game type -> IE. Chase around terrain fast shooting at stuff.
First Person / Third Person -> The perspective that you view the action from.
It's much the same as how a Strategy game is described.
RTS (Real Time Strategy)
TBS (Turn Based Strategy)
Game type is Strategy with sub types of Real Time and Turn Based.
03/01/2004 (10:20 am)
ThinkTanks is a Third-Person Shooter.Shooter is the game type -> IE. Chase around terrain fast shooting at stuff.
First Person / Third Person -> The perspective that you view the action from.
It's much the same as how a Strategy game is described.
RTS (Real Time Strategy)
TBS (Turn Based Strategy)
Game type is Strategy with sub types of Real Time and Turn Based.
#49
Then I started remembering why I went in search of a game engine in the first place; because my own code was getting hopelessly bloated and unorganized, as I was really learning as I went about how the various components of a game engine fit together. And that you have to take every aspect of the engine into consideration when designing it... throwing together a bunch of open-source libraries is not going to get you anything near an optimal solution, because these libraries were designed entirely independently of each other. You have to convert back and forth between different paradigms, different naming conventions, different structures, etc... getting the libraries to work on the same data set is nearly impossible, you almost always have to have multiple sets of data for the different libraries to operate on, and then swap parts on a per-frame basis.
And then get a smooth multiplayer model? Fat chance.
Building a simple app in Torque is a lot more work than building a simple app in OGRE. However, building a complete app in Torque is far less work than combining OGRE, OpenIL, ODE, OpenAL, etc. to form a complete app. It's not something you're going to be able to appreciate in a few days, but if you have any experience adding to code written by others, there is no reason it should take you months or years to be able to harness the power of Torque.
The main problem is the documentation, not the engine itself. I think a few good tutorials, with links posted right at the beginning of the documentation page that is sent to your email when you first sign up, that gives you the stripped down engine with just a blank GUI (no mountains, no crossbow, no animated characters, no health bars, no reticule, no world editor, no GUI editor) would make things a lot less painful. At the least it would impart to the new user that they didn't just buy a $100 modifiable FPS game. Maybe a demonstration on how to manually add GUI components, render custom 3d objects, etc. I know all of that information is available if you search the Resources, but it is a mission for a new user to find them, and it doesnt take long to get disillusioned.
Just my 2 cents ;)
Peace
03/01/2004 (1:11 pm)
I know exactly where Tim is coming from. I had that same sinking feeling at first when I started reading the tutorials and saw that almost all of them were about how to add things to the demo app and using the world editor. I told myself that I wasn't going to use this crap, and went back to working on my own engine. Then I started remembering why I went in search of a game engine in the first place; because my own code was getting hopelessly bloated and unorganized, as I was really learning as I went about how the various components of a game engine fit together. And that you have to take every aspect of the engine into consideration when designing it... throwing together a bunch of open-source libraries is not going to get you anything near an optimal solution, because these libraries were designed entirely independently of each other. You have to convert back and forth between different paradigms, different naming conventions, different structures, etc... getting the libraries to work on the same data set is nearly impossible, you almost always have to have multiple sets of data for the different libraries to operate on, and then swap parts on a per-frame basis.
And then get a smooth multiplayer model? Fat chance.
Building a simple app in Torque is a lot more work than building a simple app in OGRE. However, building a complete app in Torque is far less work than combining OGRE, OpenIL, ODE, OpenAL, etc. to form a complete app. It's not something you're going to be able to appreciate in a few days, but if you have any experience adding to code written by others, there is no reason it should take you months or years to be able to harness the power of Torque.
The main problem is the documentation, not the engine itself. I think a few good tutorials, with links posted right at the beginning of the documentation page that is sent to your email when you first sign up, that gives you the stripped down engine with just a blank GUI (no mountains, no crossbow, no animated characters, no health bars, no reticule, no world editor, no GUI editor) would make things a lot less painful. At the least it would impart to the new user that they didn't just buy a $100 modifiable FPS game. Maybe a demonstration on how to manually add GUI components, render custom 3d objects, etc. I know all of that information is available if you search the Resources, but it is a mission for a new user to find them, and it doesnt take long to get disillusioned.
Just my 2 cents ;)
Peace
#50
YES! EXACTLY! thank you so much gerald for stating succinctly what i was trying (and obviously failing) to say... YES the reason i went looking for an engine was to avoid exactly the issues you described with the various open source libraries (the consistancy mentioned in my other posts)... and YES, the kind of documentation/tutorials you described (and even BETTER, a CVS branch pre-configured to what you described in addition to the enhanced documentation) would have A) avoided my initial post entirely and B) avoided the overall bad feeling i now have about the torque engine leading to the decision to blast it off my drive and move on to more productive and less hostile (albeit less consistant) alternatives...
03/01/2004 (1:27 pm)
I had decided to wash my hands of this website entirely, but when i saw gerald's post in my inbox, i had to make one last followup...YES! EXACTLY! thank you so much gerald for stating succinctly what i was trying (and obviously failing) to say... YES the reason i went looking for an engine was to avoid exactly the issues you described with the various open source libraries (the consistancy mentioned in my other posts)... and YES, the kind of documentation/tutorials you described (and even BETTER, a CVS branch pre-configured to what you described in addition to the enhanced documentation) would have A) avoided my initial post entirely and B) avoided the overall bad feeling i now have about the torque engine leading to the decision to blast it off my drive and move on to more productive and less hostile (albeit less consistant) alternatives...
#51
03/01/2004 (1:41 pm)
Your loss, Tim, good luck. 
#52
However, I don't want to lose anybody. I hope that some day Tim will check back on us and see something that sparks his imagination. Maybe our documentation will be better, maybe there will be tutorials that do what he is looking for, maybe he will just change his opinion.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
03/01/2004 (3:04 pm)
All I can say is that we are trying. We can't be all things to all people. I feel really bad about Tim's misconception, but I KNOW we have the best solution out there for nearly all game devleopers. I have gone back through all of our marketing materials, and feel absolutely right in the way we are selling Torque. We NEVER state it is what Tim thought it was going to be.However, I don't want to lose anybody. I hope that some day Tim will check back on us and see something that sparks his imagination. Maybe our documentation will be better, maybe there will be tutorials that do what he is looking for, maybe he will just change his opinion.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
#53
I had the same thing going in my head when I first started with Torque so now I am working with the document team to try to write exactly that. Its not coming easy, there are many ways to do things in torque but it is a learning experiance. For the moment you guys are going to have to wait. Everytime I get somewhere with Torque I end up starting again because I figured out some new cool things or that perhaps what I ws going was a bad idea. :)
The good news is that the GG people will be looking over the design of them game and giving pointers so once the tutorial is complete it will be something really nice (I am hoping anyway) but its not going to use the mission editor or any of the fps stuff. Its going to be about tieing all the peices together yourself to give you exactly what you want. :)
Later, Ben
03/01/2004 (3:05 pm)
Hello Gerald,I had the same thing going in my head when I first started with Torque so now I am working with the document team to try to write exactly that. Its not coming easy, there are many ways to do things in torque but it is a learning experiance. For the moment you guys are going to have to wait. Everytime I get somewhere with Torque I end up starting again because I figured out some new cool things or that perhaps what I ws going was a bad idea. :)
The good news is that the GG people will be looking over the design of them game and giving pointers so once the tutorial is complete it will be something really nice (I am hoping anyway) but its not going to use the mission editor or any of the fps stuff. Its going to be about tieing all the peices together yourself to give you exactly what you want. :)
Later, Ben
#54
Well that's good to hear :) The more I play around with Torque and the scripting language the more I like it. It just took a while to see past the demo app. It is probably the best $100 I've ever spent. I've had Torque for about a week, the first couple of days were exercises in frustration, but since then I've got a halfway decent handle on things, and am working on implementing some intermediate AI, which is working out nicely with the interaction between the scripting language and the C++ code. That's the main reason I purchased Torque; my main interest lies in creating a game with strong AI for fun emergent gameplay, and I wanted to be able to start working on that right away, without having to worry about the graphics, sound, networking, physics, and entity interaction framework. But I didnt want to be constrained to a particular type of scene, and it kinda looked like I was stuck with a bunch of mountains whether I wanted them or not :p Now I know better, and I'm using the terrain anyway, just making the hills a bit less dramatic.
Peace
03/01/2004 (5:01 pm)
Hi,Well that's good to hear :) The more I play around with Torque and the scripting language the more I like it. It just took a while to see past the demo app. It is probably the best $100 I've ever spent. I've had Torque for about a week, the first couple of days were exercises in frustration, but since then I've got a halfway decent handle on things, and am working on implementing some intermediate AI, which is working out nicely with the interaction between the scripting language and the C++ code. That's the main reason I purchased Torque; my main interest lies in creating a game with strong AI for fun emergent gameplay, and I wanted to be able to start working on that right away, without having to worry about the graphics, sound, networking, physics, and entity interaction framework. But I didnt want to be constrained to a particular type of scene, and it kinda looked like I was stuck with a bunch of mountains whether I wanted them or not :p Now I know better, and I'm using the terrain anyway, just making the hills a bit less dramatic.
Peace
#55
It comes with a great strong running well tested engine, gas tank, all the electronics and all the little things that make it go from the time you turn the key to the starter.fps.....
but some of us like to tweak the transmission gearbox ratios, put in an automatic, change to mag wheels and add new seat covers....
If nothing else TGE is a nice rolling chassis.... you can make it a family car or a dragster from hell...... like most it took me a while to figure out where all the parts go and how they work..... but once you read the docs... do the doxygen thing along with a couple of console dumps... you have a full working shop manual..... and when all else fails.... the forums make a hell of a pit crew......
I think he wanted to see nascar.... drive in a circle for 3 hours... and instead he got indy.... left turn, right turn, hit a few hay bales..... :)
now back to green flag coding !!!
TGE was the best coding exp i've ever had and better than any book... I should know.... i've taught programming at a major university for years, and have been programming since 1978.... if he wants to really have fun tell him to skip the wussy C++ and go straight for assembler... i have a few books he can borrow :)
11/29/2004 (6:24 pm)
Personaly I see TGE as a car....It comes with a great strong running well tested engine, gas tank, all the electronics and all the little things that make it go from the time you turn the key to the starter.fps.....
but some of us like to tweak the transmission gearbox ratios, put in an automatic, change to mag wheels and add new seat covers....
If nothing else TGE is a nice rolling chassis.... you can make it a family car or a dragster from hell...... like most it took me a while to figure out where all the parts go and how they work..... but once you read the docs... do the doxygen thing along with a couple of console dumps... you have a full working shop manual..... and when all else fails.... the forums make a hell of a pit crew......
I think he wanted to see nascar.... drive in a circle for 3 hours... and instead he got indy.... left turn, right turn, hit a few hay bales..... :)
now back to green flag coding !!!
TGE was the best coding exp i've ever had and better than any book... I should know.... i've taught programming at a major university for years, and have been programming since 1978.... if he wants to really have fun tell him to skip the wussy C++ and go straight for assembler... i have a few books he can borrow :)
#56
11/29/2004 (10:31 pm)
Wow...you've been coding for as long as I've been alive =) 
#57
11/29/2004 (10:37 pm)
There's a place for engines, frameworks, and sdk's ... At this point, I have NO interest in writing a game engine... 
#58
This post made me realize that Torque is a new paradigm. The engine is a complex system that is going to take me a while to figure out how to use. I'm basically facing the equivalent of a new language, operating system, and programming technique! I need to give myself room to read the documentation, do a lot of tutorials (even if they are not related to the type of game I want to do.) If I stop pushing myself to make the game now, and take some time to understand my tools I'll be much better off!
*Tim* if you are still listening I hope you'd consider the idea that instead of improving your programming skills on some homebrewed solution you could be finding ways to improve performance, and enhance functionality of Torque. I'm sure there is some bug list somewhere you could tackle that'll improve the engine, your skills, and your understanding of the code. A lot of the posts where 'emotional' I know but I think that is because these guys are invested in Torque and where simple defending something they are proud of.
12/08/2004 (10:15 am)
I purchase Torque about a month ago and I have to say I've very glad I ran across this post because it finally made things click in my head. I totally identify with Tim's problem. As a professional programmer Torque was driving my crazy. I kept sitting down trying to get to work and felt tied up and blocked. I felt like chunks of it where in my way and holding me back. I know how to write code and I was trying to apply this to Torque.This post made me realize that Torque is a new paradigm. The engine is a complex system that is going to take me a while to figure out how to use. I'm basically facing the equivalent of a new language, operating system, and programming technique! I need to give myself room to read the documentation, do a lot of tutorials (even if they are not related to the type of game I want to do.) If I stop pushing myself to make the game now, and take some time to understand my tools I'll be much better off!
*Tim* if you are still listening I hope you'd consider the idea that instead of improving your programming skills on some homebrewed solution you could be finding ways to improve performance, and enhance functionality of Torque. I'm sure there is some bug list somewhere you could tackle that'll improve the engine, your skills, and your understanding of the code. A lot of the posts where 'emotional' I know but I think that is because these guys are invested in Torque and where simple defending something they are proud of.
#59
12/08/2004 (10:58 am)
Well said, Philip. :)
#60
About a month ago (coinciding with our RTS-SK adoption, which was a contributing factor) things simply clicked...we've been developing non-stop substantial, appropriate, and most of all functional tasks within our development line, culminating in our first substantial internal milestone release to the rest of the team. It's amazing how once you adapt your previous methods of developmen in the way you describe to the TGE paradigm things work out!
Fortunately for us, I had extensive experience with this exact same paradigm from my Mud coding days. I basically got handed a 250k+ source lines code base that was severely broken, and couldn't do much, if anything, for several months while I became familiar with the code base, but once the general level of familiarity with how things worked came about, I ran the code base in directions that had never been seen (at that time) in muds before.
TGE, when properly understood, is amazing, and if used well can give you the head start any team (or individual) needs to accomplish great games--just realize that it is not a "modding tool", and it is not a "make my game in two weeks" tool.
12/08/2004 (10:59 am)
@Phillip: It took my team almost 8 months of tinkering around with TGE in the methods you described before we accomplished much in the way of our development line. This time was spent adding in resources, modifying (relatively) simple things like splitting out environments, adding in db support, etc.About a month ago (coinciding with our RTS-SK adoption, which was a contributing factor) things simply clicked...we've been developing non-stop substantial, appropriate, and most of all functional tasks within our development line, culminating in our first substantial internal milestone release to the rest of the team. It's amazing how once you adapt your previous methods of developmen in the way you describe to the TGE paradigm things work out!
Fortunately for us, I had extensive experience with this exact same paradigm from my Mud coding days. I basically got handed a 250k+ source lines code base that was severely broken, and couldn't do much, if anything, for several months while I became familiar with the code base, but once the general level of familiarity with how things worked came about, I ran the code base in directions that had never been seen (at that time) in muds before.
TGE, when properly understood, is amazing, and if used well can give you the head start any team (or individual) needs to accomplish great games--just realize that it is not a "modding tool", and it is not a "make my game in two weeks" tool.
Torque Owner Joe Bird
As for the topic. I purchased Torque knowing full well that it is a game engine with tons of stuff built right in. In fact that is one of the main reasons I purchased it. I had already tried to build a game from scratch in Blitz3D and it was taking forever to do. Coding a GUI Editor, Mission Editor, Particle Effects, Shadows, Networking, and implementing Scripting take a ton of time. Even putting together small things like bitmap font functionality took hours, and then to top it off you have to spend more time fully testing and optimizing it.
It's easy to start off putting together small demos in an SDK, but when it comes time to do a feature complete game I think Torque is going to save me a ton of time.