Questions about Torque
by Kris Leblanc · in Torque Game Engine · 02/21/2004 (4:56 pm) · 16 replies
Hello I have a feq questions about Torque , and I really hope this doesn't bother anyone by me just asking out , sense I seem to be getting well partial answers to my questions with looking back on in the forums , but I figured I would just ask what I am curious about this engine flat out and here.
And I would like to state before anyone's posts any responses in answering any of my questions would be appreciated and thanked.
What so far attracts me towards this product other then its low price , is form what I have seen in screenshots , that it is beautifully geared towards exterior areas . but I am curious how well it works on or how easy to implement indoors as well.
I have read somewhere here on the forums that it has problems with doors or something along that matter (please correct me if I am wrong). And if so is there tutorials around geared towards this ?
And I am more of a 3d modeler then a programmer , and I have seen there is quite a extensive amount of tutorials out there , but how would you as a community say how hard this programming language that it uses would be for someone to learn that's only programming experiences has been in Turing , and pacal , and turbo pacsal , plus html and a bit of java ?
Next my 3d modeling program that I use is C4d , and I am curious , for interiors , say a hallway could I model it within my C4d environment , and bring those series of objects into being the hall models and the major environmental models for the halls , floor , etc, etc. I ask this because form what I have seen in 3dgs your basically stuck with the level editor for building your levels. And I would like to be able to do that with the modeling program that I am comfortable with.
And to continue on with this train of thought, what model file extensions dose this program use , dose it use two separate file types like in 3dgs , the .map (I think) for the levels themselves , and mdl for the models for characters and what not that you import in , or could dose torque work more less like Morrowind dose , (I have done some moding for that) which they use the .nif file format for everything , models for npc , character models , and level models for interiors.
Also how many polys per model for character models/npc models do people tend to use with this system .. I know that what is used in say Morrowind (sorry for bringing it up , I am just familiar with it and draw it for reference) is quite a few more polys then what I have noted in the 3dgs models that the community there has on there webpages .. and I know these engines are likely not as good as those used by the commercial giants out there , so how many can this one handle easily for say 20(rough ballpark figure) or so npcs in one level map.
Also I haven't gone to far in depth into the tutorials yet, (I plan on it befor I make a buy) but is there enough tutorials built form the community to in time to steer me towards the right path in creating myself a 1st person action adventure rpg ? I am currently building models for myself towards that and have a story written out.. (it's a project I have wanted to do for a long wile).. and if anyone's curious the average poly count for my models has been around 1000 1500.
I hope my questions have made sense , and I hope no one minds taking the time to answer any of them , to help me in my inward debate on which product I should buy . though form what I have seen in screen shots I am extremely impressed by the quality of this one .
And I would like to state before anyone's posts any responses in answering any of my questions would be appreciated and thanked.
What so far attracts me towards this product other then its low price , is form what I have seen in screenshots , that it is beautifully geared towards exterior areas . but I am curious how well it works on or how easy to implement indoors as well.
I have read somewhere here on the forums that it has problems with doors or something along that matter (please correct me if I am wrong). And if so is there tutorials around geared towards this ?
And I am more of a 3d modeler then a programmer , and I have seen there is quite a extensive amount of tutorials out there , but how would you as a community say how hard this programming language that it uses would be for someone to learn that's only programming experiences has been in Turing , and pacal , and turbo pacsal , plus html and a bit of java ?
Next my 3d modeling program that I use is C4d , and I am curious , for interiors , say a hallway could I model it within my C4d environment , and bring those series of objects into being the hall models and the major environmental models for the halls , floor , etc, etc. I ask this because form what I have seen in 3dgs your basically stuck with the level editor for building your levels. And I would like to be able to do that with the modeling program that I am comfortable with.
And to continue on with this train of thought, what model file extensions dose this program use , dose it use two separate file types like in 3dgs , the .map (I think) for the levels themselves , and mdl for the models for characters and what not that you import in , or could dose torque work more less like Morrowind dose , (I have done some moding for that) which they use the .nif file format for everything , models for npc , character models , and level models for interiors.
Also how many polys per model for character models/npc models do people tend to use with this system .. I know that what is used in say Morrowind (sorry for bringing it up , I am just familiar with it and draw it for reference) is quite a few more polys then what I have noted in the 3dgs models that the community there has on there webpages .. and I know these engines are likely not as good as those used by the commercial giants out there , so how many can this one handle easily for say 20(rough ballpark figure) or so npcs in one level map.
Also I haven't gone to far in depth into the tutorials yet, (I plan on it befor I make a buy) but is there enough tutorials built form the community to in time to steer me towards the right path in creating myself a 1st person action adventure rpg ? I am currently building models for myself towards that and have a story written out.. (it's a project I have wanted to do for a long wile).. and if anyone's curious the average poly count for my models has been around 1000 1500.
I hope my questions have made sense , and I hope no one minds taking the time to answer any of them , to help me in my inward debate on which product I should buy . though form what I have seen in screen shots I am extremely impressed by the quality of this one .
#2
But first off using other tools is quite feasible with C4d with exporting it form the program itself in a 3ds file and using another tool to convert it form that to another file format. Like how with the 3dgs modeler itself you can import it form that 3ds file and convert it in one step to a mdl file.
Though how well documented are these Dts and Dif formats , just out of curiosity , sense a viable alliterative for me may be making myself a plugin for C4d to export directly into these formats (I know its likely that I will be SOL with DIF format but it is conservable for the Dts)
And I very much like the possibility that it is a out of the box engine , I would like to do some landscaping in the concept game that I have within my head and form what I have seen 3dgs is insufficient for this , and the idea of large maps that can be made with this software itself is on the extreme positive side.
Though the scripting language that this program uses dose seem intimidating, I have never worked or toyed with C++ because infact it is a intimidating language for a novice with programming , but hopefully if I do choose it I can bridge the learning curve even with my artistic out of the box mind.
Also could someone post some links to tutorial pages for this program for me (other then the ones here at GarageGames) , so I can look them over and get a better idea to what this system can do and how hard / easy it may be to do it. Yes I know it may seem strange looking at tutorials for a piece of software before you own it, but I did the same before I sunk the money into buying myself C4d as well.
02/22/2004 (8:28 am)
Thank you for your post about this , it answers some questions very well but it causes more to arise within me. But first off using other tools is quite feasible with C4d with exporting it form the program itself in a 3ds file and using another tool to convert it form that to another file format. Like how with the 3dgs modeler itself you can import it form that 3ds file and convert it in one step to a mdl file.
Though how well documented are these Dts and Dif formats , just out of curiosity , sense a viable alliterative for me may be making myself a plugin for C4d to export directly into these formats (I know its likely that I will be SOL with DIF format but it is conservable for the Dts)
And I very much like the possibility that it is a out of the box engine , I would like to do some landscaping in the concept game that I have within my head and form what I have seen 3dgs is insufficient for this , and the idea of large maps that can be made with this software itself is on the extreme positive side.
Though the scripting language that this program uses dose seem intimidating, I have never worked or toyed with C++ because infact it is a intimidating language for a novice with programming , but hopefully if I do choose it I can bridge the learning curve even with my artistic out of the box mind.
Also could someone post some links to tutorial pages for this program for me (other then the ones here at GarageGames) , so I can look them over and get a better idea to what this system can do and how hard / easy it may be to do it. Yes I know it may seem strange looking at tutorials for a piece of software before you own it, but I did the same before I sunk the money into buying myself C4d as well.
#3
You get full source to the exporters, so you should be able to write your C4D DTS exporter without "too much" trouble. There are also people in the community who could probably be talked into helping explain some of the trickier bits to you, like James Urquhart who just finished writing the Blender exporter. Dif will be a bit trickier - you're probably going to be using Quark like the rest of us, although a few people are working on better exporter paths.
I would definitely encourage you to either get a programmer or learn C++ yourself. Even a minimal knowledge will be immensely helpful with Torque, which is very definitely a learning experience. :)
I don't have any tutorial links off hand. You might try the Hall of Worlds site or the Resources section.
02/22/2004 (11:12 am)
Mind you that the exporter plugins I'm talking about aren't standalone, so you have to have a working copy of 3d studio to export to DTS...You get full source to the exporters, so you should be able to write your C4D DTS exporter without "too much" trouble. There are also people in the community who could probably be talked into helping explain some of the trickier bits to you, like James Urquhart who just finished writing the Blender exporter. Dif will be a bit trickier - you're probably going to be using Quark like the rest of us, although a few people are working on better exporter paths.
I would definitely encourage you to either get a programmer or learn C++ yourself. Even a minimal knowledge will be immensely helpful with Torque, which is very definitely a learning experience. :)
I don't have any tutorial links off hand. You might try the Hall of Worlds site or the Resources section.
#4
And ya learning C++ will be a endeavor all in itself , and something I don't mind to learn through time and experience , daunting definitely but improving myself through learning is something I do enjoy. Being a 3d artist right now by night, and a construction worker by day =o)
And I do have a feeling that in the future I will likely be running off of Quark like everyone else (atlas it was a hope to avoid that and model solely in a environment that i am quite comfortable in , but you cant expect the sun and the moon out of a program that is sold for 100 dollars compared to those which can be a hundred times more expensive used by the commercial giants out there)
Now I am curious as well you mentioned the collision detection is somewhat limited with the Dts format, I was curious of other features it also lacks, compared to the Dif format. Like casting shadows off of Dts can it be done like that of the dif's ? I am thinking for example say I modeled a simple chair in a Dts format for the level , would it be able to cast shadows and actually look like it would fit with the scenery , or would I have to do things the hard way , and texture in the cast shadows my self .
Also thank you Ben for indulging my curiosity on this product, I see under your name that you're a Employee here , but I do appreciate you taking the time form your other responcablitys for this.
02/22/2004 (12:59 pm)
I understood very well what you meant with 3d studio and Lightwave having capabilities to export to Dts . which is why I also asked how well documented that file format was to work on my own plugin exporter if I choose to buy Torque. Which so far with what engines I have seen I am definitely leaning towards. And ya learning C++ will be a endeavor all in itself , and something I don't mind to learn through time and experience , daunting definitely but improving myself through learning is something I do enjoy. Being a 3d artist right now by night, and a construction worker by day =o)
And I do have a feeling that in the future I will likely be running off of Quark like everyone else (atlas it was a hope to avoid that and model solely in a environment that i am quite comfortable in , but you cant expect the sun and the moon out of a program that is sold for 100 dollars compared to those which can be a hundred times more expensive used by the commercial giants out there)
Now I am curious as well you mentioned the collision detection is somewhat limited with the Dts format, I was curious of other features it also lacks, compared to the Dif format. Like casting shadows off of Dts can it be done like that of the dif's ? I am thinking for example say I modeled a simple chair in a Dts format for the level , would it be able to cast shadows and actually look like it would fit with the scenery , or would I have to do things the hard way , and texture in the cast shadows my self .
Also thank you Ben for indulging my curiosity on this product, I see under your name that you're a Employee here , but I do appreciate you taking the time form your other responcablitys for this.
#5
DTS is basically suited towards shapes, while DIF is for interiors. You can get them to overlap, of course, and there is a grey area, but if you're using DIFs for your characters and DTS for your levels, you've got it all wrong. :)
I'd suggest playing around with the level editor in the demo to see what each does more explicitly. You can get DTS shapes to cast "realistic" shadows (though not on themselves) using some resources that are available. Anyway, play around with the tools, and you'll quickly get a handle on what you can do.
02/22/2004 (5:12 pm)
No problem - glad to help. :)DTS is basically suited towards shapes, while DIF is for interiors. You can get them to overlap, of course, and there is a grey area, but if you're using DIFs for your characters and DTS for your levels, you've got it all wrong. :)
I'd suggest playing around with the level editor in the demo to see what each does more explicitly. You can get DTS shapes to cast "realistic" shadows (though not on themselves) using some resources that are available. Anyway, play around with the tools, and you'll quickly get a handle on what you can do.
#6
The price is a free to choice model in DTS format (except characters), made by Nagual artist
:)
www.nagual.hu
02/25/2004 (7:33 am)
I give an order to a funny competition, to design the nicest dif character ever made. ;) (No animation, only the shape)The price is a free to choice model in DTS format (except characters), made by Nagual artist
:)
www.nagual.hu
#7
did this in about an hour or so of work, 1396 faces:
02/25/2004 (9:39 am)
Hammer/quark can be a pain to work with if you're used to max, but it *is* possible to do some fairly detailed work if you take the time (and work around the lack of smoothing)did this in about an hour or so of work, 1396 faces:
#8
02/25/2004 (7:38 pm)
Impressive.
#9
02/26/2004 (4:30 am)
Nice !
#10
Though with all of the posts I have placed on various message boards with similar questions , this has had the most response , and I find that somewhat encouraging.
Also Chemeleon I well hole heatedly agree with the point that quark is a pain in the .... Well I don't like that environment very much, but I guess I can adapt. And smoothing is not the issue with me for it , its more or less the work flow and the tools available compared to the package I am used to for my modeling.
And I thought I would post my wip somehow for your viewing sense you showed me something of your own , which is indeed impressive for the modeler you used to create it, and well this model lacks the well style my normal models have , but I am going form the fifty thousand to one million polys , to about 1500 in this one thus far , though I have not yet finished one of the arms , nor have I finished or placed the head on it yet.
I am using my oh so rarely used renderosity gallery to showcase this pic , it can be found at
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=615076&Start=1&Sectionid=21&filter_genre_id=0&WhatsNew=Yes
and I have it set to Zero smoothing , sense I anticipate no matter what engine I choose in the end , it wont be a feature available.
02/28/2004 (5:32 pm)
Thank you everyone for your input towards this choice I am going to be trying to make , and I have had some difficulty with playing around with some aspects of the demo , but I am continuing to research this engine and a few others , considering what would be the best for me.Though with all of the posts I have placed on various message boards with similar questions , this has had the most response , and I find that somewhat encouraging.
Also Chemeleon I well hole heatedly agree with the point that quark is a pain in the .... Well I don't like that environment very much, but I guess I can adapt. And smoothing is not the issue with me for it , its more or less the work flow and the tools available compared to the package I am used to for my modeling.
And I thought I would post my wip somehow for your viewing sense you showed me something of your own , which is indeed impressive for the modeler you used to create it, and well this model lacks the well style my normal models have , but I am going form the fifty thousand to one million polys , to about 1500 in this one thus far , though I have not yet finished one of the arms , nor have I finished or placed the head on it yet.
I am using my oh so rarely used renderosity gallery to showcase this pic , it can be found at
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=615076&Start=1&Sectionid=21&filter_genre_id=0&WhatsNew=Yes
and I have it set to Zero smoothing , sense I anticipate no matter what engine I choose in the end , it wont be a feature available.
#11
02/28/2004 (6:13 pm)
It wants a password. :-/
#12
02/28/2004 (6:36 pm)
Gah i figured the renderosity gallerys would allow non users to view images there ... i will just have to think and find a place to put the image for viewing , for i dont have a webpage of my own
#13
http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Cinema_4D+8GOnHMmv2+1078045044+&v_index=1&nd=0111111111
02/28/2004 (6:59 pm)
I am going to use my 3d commune membership gallery then , i had a freind of mine who dosent have a account there test it , and she was able to view it.http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Cinema_4D+8GOnHMmv2+1078045044+&v_index=1&nd=0111111111
#14
02/28/2004 (7:52 pm)
Huh. Looks ok, but you could probably cut thousands of polies out of the wheels, and probably other areas, too...
#15
02/29/2004 (6:36 am)
There is only about 200 polys in the wheels , i dont see where i could cut thousands out of them =o)
#16
I'm not an artist, tho, just a programmer ;)
02/29/2004 (9:13 am)
How are the LOD for those wheels set up? You could probably turn them into billboards at the next LOD...I'm not an artist, tho, just a programmer ;)
Associate Ben Garney
Torque uses two internal file formats for its models, DIF and DTS. DIF is for interiors/buildings, and supports lightmaps and accurate collision. DTS is for shapes like players, and supports animation and more visual features (like billboards). DTS collision is fairly limited, however - not that you'll need a lot of complex collision behavior from a health kit...
There are exporters to DIF available from .map format (such as you can create with Quark or WorldCraft). There are exporters to DTS available from Blender, Max, Lightwave, and several other modellers, but sadly, not Cinema 4D. I seem to recall people having succesfully exported from C4D before, by exporting from it to other tools, thence to DTS.
There are a lot of tutorials available, indeed. Any extra programming knowledge you can bring to the table is a definite plus, though - Torque is written using C++, so I'd recommend grabbing an introductory text on it, though you can ge pretty far just on script. Torque uses a proprietary scripting language, loosely based off of C++.
As for polies per model... as many as you want. 1000-1500 is a reasonable range. Torque has no limites. I'd suggest running some experiments to see what works best for you.