So, where do I go now ?
by Paul Johnson · in General Discussion · 02/21/2004 (2:19 pm) · 22 replies
Hi. Since jumping onto the Indie bandwagon on Jan 6th, I've been frantically rewriting my engine and developing my first of hopefully many titles.
It's a crazy/mini golf game. It's a proven genre that can be done quite quickly and I'm trying to raise the bar a little on what I've seen from potential competitors so in theory at least it should be a contender.
I'm waiting on a lot of art but the game's getting basically playable now - you can play a hole, get a score, go onto the next hole etc. Lots of stuff still on the to-do list, but I'm over the 'new project' hurdles.
I'm a bit stuck on what to do next with it though, tbh. How do I actually sell this thing once it's finished ? Previously I've always worked for employers or clients as a contractor and my self-funded PDA 'marketing' consisted of listing at handango and leaving it at that.
What else should I be doing to make sure I get exposure and hopefully sales to follow it up with. Are their online publishers who take a cut and actually advertise the game, get reviews on major sites, etc etc ?
Are their agents to do all this ? If not, why not ?
What exactly do GG do for their cut ? Do they do more for more ?
As you can see I'm hopelessly newb to this area and it's obviously the most important factor in making a good return on time invested.
Help!
Thanks :)
It's a crazy/mini golf game. It's a proven genre that can be done quite quickly and I'm trying to raise the bar a little on what I've seen from potential competitors so in theory at least it should be a contender.
I'm waiting on a lot of art but the game's getting basically playable now - you can play a hole, get a score, go onto the next hole etc. Lots of stuff still on the to-do list, but I'm over the 'new project' hurdles.
I'm a bit stuck on what to do next with it though, tbh. How do I actually sell this thing once it's finished ? Previously I've always worked for employers or clients as a contractor and my self-funded PDA 'marketing' consisted of listing at handango and leaving it at that.
What else should I be doing to make sure I get exposure and hopefully sales to follow it up with. Are their online publishers who take a cut and actually advertise the game, get reviews on major sites, etc etc ?
Are their agents to do all this ? If not, why not ?
What exactly do GG do for their cut ? Do they do more for more ?
As you can see I'm hopelessly newb to this area and it's obviously the most important factor in making a good return on time invested.
Help!
Thanks :)
About the author
#2
I'm actually interested in the marketing aspect of games (in a more academic way, not exactly my dream job, but I want to understand it).
I'd say if youve got history, start shouting about it. Start getting your name out to any specific sites that do your target games. Get in touch with the big players in that market etc.
Basically, get out there and make your name.
02/21/2004 (4:12 pm)
Yeah, you cant just make a game and let it be. Youre going to have to learn the marketing, or as Randall says, get a guy to do it for you.I'm actually interested in the marketing aspect of games (in a more academic way, not exactly my dream job, but I want to understand it).
I'd say if youve got history, start shouting about it. Start getting your name out to any specific sites that do your target games. Get in touch with the big players in that market etc.
Basically, get out there and make your name.
#3
I've got a couple of friends looking at the game regularly. They know I have a thick skin and welcome all comments (good and bad, but bad is better as long as its constructive).
Soon I'm hoping to have something I'd consider Alpha that I may ask some more disinterested 3rd parties to vet for me. Then of course I intend to do a playable demo suitable for showing off the game and useable as a sales incentive.
I'm more worried about getting the masses to see it once it's release-worthy. I have totally zero experience in this area and not even much guesswork built up. :S
02/21/2004 (4:20 pm)
Thanks Randall. I'd pretty much figured I'd need 3rd party help, but I wouldn't have the first clue about how or where to "get a marketing person" which is my basic problem.I've got a couple of friends looking at the game regularly. They know I have a thick skin and welcome all comments (good and bad, but bad is better as long as its constructive).
Soon I'm hoping to have something I'd consider Alpha that I may ask some more disinterested 3rd parties to vet for me. Then of course I intend to do a playable demo suitable for showing off the game and useable as a sales incentive.
I'm more worried about getting the masses to see it once it's release-worthy. I have totally zero experience in this area and not even much guesswork built up. :S
#4
GG will help, but won't do it all for you. For specifics, I suggest talking to Jay, since that's his domain. But if you look at what GG is doing for its existing products, you'll see the range of possibilities.
Getting a marketing person is an _excellent_ idea.
02/21/2004 (4:23 pm)
Or in other words - once you've made a game, you get to spend the next 2-3 years marketing and supporting it. ;)GG will help, but won't do it all for you. For specifics, I suggest talking to Jay, since that's his domain. But if you look at what GG is doing for its existing products, you'll see the range of possibilities.
Getting a marketing person is an _excellent_ idea.
#5
I'm definitely the kind of guy that needs someone to do his shouting for him. I can be confident to the point of arrogance when discussing stuff I know about, but when I'm in unchartered waters I tend to keep my head down. Not an ideal trait where shouting is required....
02/21/2004 (4:28 pm)
@Phil: My history is probably best covered up! The reason I'm here is that I had 3 perfectly decent mainstream projects pulled in a row. Even in todays "screw the developer" world, I bet that's a first! lolI'm definitely the kind of guy that needs someone to do his shouting for him. I can be confident to the point of arrogance when discussing stuff I know about, but when I'm in unchartered waters I tend to keep my head down. Not an ideal trait where shouting is required....
#6
I'll do just that Ben, thanks.
02/21/2004 (4:31 pm)
Grr, each time I post another guy turns up so apologies for replying individually rather than all in one go, and thanks for the continued input. I'll wait a bit after this one :)I'll do just that Ben, thanks.
#7
*Very* early yet. Even with those screenies the only person who can tell what this game is gonna look like is still me. Thought I'd share where I was up to though.
02/21/2004 (5:46 pm)
I've posted some screenshots*Very* early yet. Even with those screenies the only person who can tell what this game is gonna look like is still me. Thought I'd share where I was up to though.
#8
*Very* early yet. Even with those screenies the only person who can tell what this game is gonna look like is still me. Thought I'd share where I was up to though.
02/21/2004 (5:52 pm)
I've posted some screenshots*Very* early yet. Even with those screenies the only person who can tell what this game is gonna look like is still me. Thought I'd share where I was up to though.
#9
02/21/2004 (5:52 pm)
Ugh. Long live postatog
#10
How about a level that is completely under water. Or in space. In the Arctic or in the Rain Forest. I assume this gamehas some kind of physics, why not have fun with them? How about real hazards, like a mine field? Or flypaper? A couple powerups wouldn't kill anything and some of them could be ingenious. The characters should be REAL characters with unique attributes. One of them could even be a "cheater" by moving your ball- non-chalantly scuffles out while whistling a little tune and gives your ball a little "kick". How about unlocking some unique golfballs, like one with extra ricochet power, or the ability to maintain a consistent speed over inclines/declines?
The game looks like its shaping up nicely, but its not exactly "different" and there really isn't a Unique Selling Point.
Look at how Polar Bowler got around the stodgy Bowling stigma. (you have to actually play the game, as it plays completely different than a normal bowling game)
02/21/2004 (6:09 pm)
Okay, this is just my opinion, but I think the game needs to be removed from reality. Even in the early state, I am pretty good at visualization. The screenshots show alot of potential, but nothing for me to get excited over. The construction of the playing field looks so stodgy and "normal". This is a virtual playing field, make it something that nobody can see, ANYWHERE.How about a level that is completely under water. Or in space. In the Arctic or in the Rain Forest. I assume this gamehas some kind of physics, why not have fun with them? How about real hazards, like a mine field? Or flypaper? A couple powerups wouldn't kill anything and some of them could be ingenious. The characters should be REAL characters with unique attributes. One of them could even be a "cheater" by moving your ball- non-chalantly scuffles out while whistling a little tune and gives your ball a little "kick". How about unlocking some unique golfballs, like one with extra ricochet power, or the ability to maintain a consistent speed over inclines/declines?
The game looks like its shaping up nicely, but its not exactly "different" and there really isn't a Unique Selling Point.
Look at how Polar Bowler got around the stodgy Bowling stigma. (you have to actually play the game, as it plays completely different than a normal bowling game)
#11
Make sure you can't see the "world" around you. You've probably already figured out that you need scenery though. Holes need to be graphicly appealing yet confine the users view enough to keep his attention focus on the hole he's playing.
Flyby's - when starting the "next" hole you might want to use a camera path interlude to scan the hole from start to finish in a few seconds time(like the Torque features demo does) giving them a chance to examine the hole from a different point of view beside the one they are going to take their shot from.
Another thing to consider, dont limit them to just 9 or 18 holes. Multiple courses with varied degree's of difficulty would be awesome. Maybe add options that could pump up the volume of distractions or unforseen pitfalls(Large bird lands on path just before shooting, hit the bird, and it takes your ball) or somthing like that.
Man, I could probably crank out a thousand ideas for this game, lol. But, it's your game so enjoy it. I think you have a great idea going. Good luck.
02/21/2004 (6:25 pm)
Great work Paul. Looks like a fun and rewarding project. My suggestions would be(sorry if repeating anyone)Make sure you can't see the "world" around you. You've probably already figured out that you need scenery though. Holes need to be graphicly appealing yet confine the users view enough to keep his attention focus on the hole he's playing.
Flyby's - when starting the "next" hole you might want to use a camera path interlude to scan the hole from start to finish in a few seconds time(like the Torque features demo does) giving them a chance to examine the hole from a different point of view beside the one they are going to take their shot from.
Another thing to consider, dont limit them to just 9 or 18 holes. Multiple courses with varied degree's of difficulty would be awesome. Maybe add options that could pump up the volume of distractions or unforseen pitfalls(Large bird lands on path just before shooting, hit the bird, and it takes your ball) or somthing like that.
Man, I could probably crank out a thousand ideas for this game, lol. But, it's your game so enjoy it. I think you have a great idea going. Good luck.
#12
I was going to focus on traditional layout but now randall has spurred me on a bit I'm thinking on that one again. Snails Mini Golf ?
There is a full physics system and I do plan to use a few features like those mentioned.
I've been thinking of having a few powerups too, and offereing the choice to play 'traditional' or 'arcade' and that seals it now :)
Point taken on the "horizon limitation". I am doin this when I get pieces of art for walls, flower-beds, hedge-row etc.
One thing I'm struggling on though is art. I don't yet have a reliable artist partner to do all this stuff and get excited by it. I know this is something I need to change but its harder than I thought to get people to commit, even when offered a generous cut.
Any artists reading this and can commit to more than 2 hours a month, I can make you a good deal...
02/22/2004 (4:00 am)
Wow, some good stuff here - thanks guys, I've got a lot more to think about now :)I was going to focus on traditional layout but now randall has spurred me on a bit I'm thinking on that one again. Snails Mini Golf ?
There is a full physics system and I do plan to use a few features like those mentioned.
I've been thinking of having a few powerups too, and offereing the choice to play 'traditional' or 'arcade' and that seals it now :)
Point taken on the "horizon limitation". I am doin this when I get pieces of art for walls, flower-beds, hedge-row etc.
One thing I'm struggling on though is art. I don't yet have a reliable artist partner to do all this stuff and get excited by it. I know this is something I need to change but its harder than I thought to get people to commit, even when offered a generous cut.
Any artists reading this and can commit to more than 2 hours a month, I can make you a good deal...
#14
02/22/2004 (7:47 am)
Hell, me too :S
#15
03/07/2004 (4:01 pm)
Looking really nice so far. I find marketing/PR isn't the hardest thing to do just very tedious. But I agree, get someone that would solely work on this.
#16
I've had no takers so far, not even to ask me what's in it for them!
03/07/2004 (4:21 pm)
If only it were that simple :(I've had no takers so far, not even to ask me what's in it for them!
#17
This helps you twofold: It gets your butt out there networking to really understand the industry and how it operates from a true Independent viewpoint, and it helps you gather resources to drive marketing by yourself or find that person to fill the niche.
03/07/2004 (6:25 pm)
It requires alot of footwork. Which basically means you have to search and look around for any takers, they aren't going to come to you.This helps you twofold: It gets your butt out there networking to really understand the industry and how it operates from a true Independent viewpoint, and it helps you gather resources to drive marketing by yourself or find that person to fill the niche.
#18
I won't be doing any networking either, much as I'd like to. Maybe one day I'll make enough money to fly to the USA on a bi-monthly basis, but until then I'm stuck here in ole blightey wondering what all these acronym conventions are all about.
This is why I need a representative. Seriously, I can't believe there aren't people trying to do this as a businesss. I'm not the only one who has trouble getting out there and the person doing it can cover a lot of bases all at once...
If I have to route out and then convince someone just to hand out my demo cds at a conference and maybe get some reviews lined up, in return for a cut straight off the top line, it doesn't inspire much confidence that I'm spending my money in the right place.
I guess there's just no easy answer to this one, which is a shame. I know just where to go if I want sound, art, models, or even boxes and packaging. Why can't I find a promotional manager that don't want 500 bucks an hour!
This could be the nail in my coffin really, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in this position. In fact, I'd be prepared to bet heavily that I'm in the vast majority.
One thing you must realise Randall is that even if I was a fair marketeer, I'd still be a better programmer and would be better employed doing that and getting someone else to do what he is best at. It's the same reason I employ a gardener - it seems a luxury but it'd simply cost more for me to stop working and pull my own weeds!
03/08/2004 (3:47 am)
Maybe revealing themselves wouldn't hurt though eh. The whole point of this kind of deal is that the people needing the service haven't got the time or the knowledge!I won't be doing any networking either, much as I'd like to. Maybe one day I'll make enough money to fly to the USA on a bi-monthly basis, but until then I'm stuck here in ole blightey wondering what all these acronym conventions are all about.
This is why I need a representative. Seriously, I can't believe there aren't people trying to do this as a businesss. I'm not the only one who has trouble getting out there and the person doing it can cover a lot of bases all at once...
If I have to route out and then convince someone just to hand out my demo cds at a conference and maybe get some reviews lined up, in return for a cut straight off the top line, it doesn't inspire much confidence that I'm spending my money in the right place.
I guess there's just no easy answer to this one, which is a shame. I know just where to go if I want sound, art, models, or even boxes and packaging. Why can't I find a promotional manager that don't want 500 bucks an hour!
This could be the nail in my coffin really, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in this position. In fact, I'd be prepared to bet heavily that I'm in the vast majority.
One thing you must realise Randall is that even if I was a fair marketeer, I'd still be a better programmer and would be better employed doing that and getting someone else to do what he is best at. It's the same reason I employ a gardener - it seems a luxury but it'd simply cost more for me to stop working and pull my own weeds!
#19
03/08/2004 (11:58 am)
Hmmmm. A most intriguing situation.
#20
It really sounds like Paul simply wants to find a publisher. I don't know of a single successful Indie that doesn't network (through email, IM, face-to-face meetings). Its simply part of the job, and one of the most rewarding aspects because it keeps you in the loop. Instead of passively waiting for things to happen, this empowers you to make things happen. It also allows you to better understand exactly what sells and why, who your target market is, and buying habits. If you have fundamental understanding of those, it works its way into your game design process and you have a target market that you are essentially building a game for.
I think another point that you are missing is, that even though your job is coding, this doesn't mean you finish the product then dump it at the doorstep of your local PR person to "finish the job" and "create" sales. As ridiculous and obvious as this sounds, that really is the mentality that many developers still carry.
You were working with Infinate Ventures, what happened to them? I've met Eugene and Karla in person on several occasions (very nice people). In fact, the last time I saw them was at a PocketPC convention 2 years ago. They had a booth directly across from Planet Schnoogie (an indie booth that I worked with Andie Clarke, Chris Edwards (PocketMatrix), Mike Wagstaff (PocketGamer) and Jason Surguine (PDAmill)). We distributed and sold CDs, provided demos and featured actual devices for people to playtest games. Furthermore, Andie was able to get a deal with the promoters that drastically dropped the price of TWO booths- which ammounted to a savings of several thousand dollars (including free day passes).
Honestly, Planet Schnoogie is the only marketing company that I work with. I haven't found the need to go anywhere else. But like I said, she keeps a very short list of clients.
03/08/2004 (2:56 pm)
There are numerous companies and individuals that handle Marketing, Representation and PR. But this isn't baseball: they aren't "scouting" for your work, and even if they were, they would need to know about it in advance.It really sounds like Paul simply wants to find a publisher. I don't know of a single successful Indie that doesn't network (through email, IM, face-to-face meetings). Its simply part of the job, and one of the most rewarding aspects because it keeps you in the loop. Instead of passively waiting for things to happen, this empowers you to make things happen. It also allows you to better understand exactly what sells and why, who your target market is, and buying habits. If you have fundamental understanding of those, it works its way into your game design process and you have a target market that you are essentially building a game for.
I think another point that you are missing is, that even though your job is coding, this doesn't mean you finish the product then dump it at the doorstep of your local PR person to "finish the job" and "create" sales. As ridiculous and obvious as this sounds, that really is the mentality that many developers still carry.
You were working with Infinate Ventures, what happened to them? I've met Eugene and Karla in person on several occasions (very nice people). In fact, the last time I saw them was at a PocketPC convention 2 years ago. They had a booth directly across from Planet Schnoogie (an indie booth that I worked with Andie Clarke, Chris Edwards (PocketMatrix), Mike Wagstaff (PocketGamer) and Jason Surguine (PDAmill)). We distributed and sold CDs, provided demos and featured actual devices for people to playtest games. Furthermore, Andie was able to get a deal with the promoters that drastically dropped the price of TWO booths- which ammounted to a savings of several thousand dollars (including free day passes).
Honestly, Planet Schnoogie is the only marketing company that I work with. I haven't found the need to go anywhere else. But like I said, she keeps a very short list of clients.
Torque Owner Randall
Paul, we've both been around the block a few times in regard to the Mobile Industry and we come from complete opposite sides of the spectrum (you have a long professional career - I have none). However, your work suffers from a massive lack of under exposure, and lack of follow up- this is a direct observation by me and verified by your "Handango" statement.
Screw the publishers, I think they have proven to be worthless to you in the past. A designated marketing person gets you the exposure, reviews, hype, etc.
My last bit of constructive criticism: throw your game out there for a few people to look at, whether its a small number of fellow developers or a full-blown public beta. None of us like to be told that we are wrong in our vision, but we all wear "developer goggles" that don't allow us to see the project from an outsider viewpoint.
Developing the game YOU want to play is fine if you are the only person you want to sell it to. If you actually want to be successful, you MUST develop the game for the consumer mindset and preferences.