Sniping game - need advice
by Josiah Wang · in Torque Game Engine · 12/30/2003 (9:57 am) · 16 replies
For my first real Torque project, I'm planning on creating a game where you rely on sniping 90% of the time. A few problems have crossed my mind, but for most of them I've found solutions. Here's some of them:
Problem: Many games already have a sniping rifle, thus possibly making a game sniping-exclusive rather boring
Solution: Make mini-games, like a timed 'hit the targets'. I could add some realism, like sniping a guy in a crowded area without hitting civilians. Also, with the many online Tribes 2 games I've played, I've noticed that at least 50% of the players enjoy using the sniper rifle. Also, maybe when a shot nears an AI civilian, I would make them run away (Need big help on this one, and how many bots until the game will lag?)
Problem: The mouse sensitivity can affect the shot greatly, causing easy frustration.
Solution: Give the option to change the sensitivity (any ideas on how to do this?)
Problem: I have absolutly no knowledge on sniping, and I suck at doing it in Tribes 2.
Solution: Do some research, but mainly get advice from you guys on how to implement it into my game (any advice is greatly appreciated =P)
Problem: How will I make it sniping exclusive?
Solution: Confine the player to a specfic region (how?), make only one close distance weapon (maybe a dagger?) Need major help on this one
Problem: If I use the names of real sniper rifles, I might need to ask the companies for permission.
Solution: Don't make it modern day, make it in the somewhat distant future. This would allow me to implement more, including a laser rifle (and would allow me to take out the wind factor ^_^).
Side Question: If I make a laser rifle with a laser aiming system like the green one in Tribes 2 (since the crosshair wouldn't be as accurate), would it be redundant? And if implemented, can I make the AI Enemy (not civilian) move away from the laser aim?
As you can see, I still have a lot of research to do. Being a student, I have never had the chance to 'play' with a sniper rifle in real life (thank God =D), so if any of you have had the oppurtunity to, any information pertaining to any of the factors would be greatly appreciated.
And for those who play Tribes 2 and enjoy using the laser rifle, any advice would be neat too as to what you would like to see =D
Oh yeah, everyone can contribute ideas for mini-games, and also to any other possible problems and/or solutions that I might encounter.
THANKS IN ADVANCE TO ALL!
Problem: Many games already have a sniping rifle, thus possibly making a game sniping-exclusive rather boring
Solution: Make mini-games, like a timed 'hit the targets'. I could add some realism, like sniping a guy in a crowded area without hitting civilians. Also, with the many online Tribes 2 games I've played, I've noticed that at least 50% of the players enjoy using the sniper rifle. Also, maybe when a shot nears an AI civilian, I would make them run away (Need big help on this one, and how many bots until the game will lag?)
Problem: The mouse sensitivity can affect the shot greatly, causing easy frustration.
Solution: Give the option to change the sensitivity (any ideas on how to do this?)
Problem: I have absolutly no knowledge on sniping, and I suck at doing it in Tribes 2.
Solution: Do some research, but mainly get advice from you guys on how to implement it into my game (any advice is greatly appreciated =P)
Problem: How will I make it sniping exclusive?
Solution: Confine the player to a specfic region (how?), make only one close distance weapon (maybe a dagger?) Need major help on this one
Problem: If I use the names of real sniper rifles, I might need to ask the companies for permission.
Solution: Don't make it modern day, make it in the somewhat distant future. This would allow me to implement more, including a laser rifle (and would allow me to take out the wind factor ^_^).
Side Question: If I make a laser rifle with a laser aiming system like the green one in Tribes 2 (since the crosshair wouldn't be as accurate), would it be redundant? And if implemented, can I make the AI Enemy (not civilian) move away from the laser aim?
As you can see, I still have a lot of research to do. Being a student, I have never had the chance to 'play' with a sniper rifle in real life (thank God =D), so if any of you have had the oppurtunity to, any information pertaining to any of the factors would be greatly appreciated.
And for those who play Tribes 2 and enjoy using the laser rifle, any advice would be neat too as to what you would like to see =D
Oh yeah, everyone can contribute ideas for mini-games, and also to any other possible problems and/or solutions that I might encounter.
THANKS IN ADVANCE TO ALL!
#2
The key to a good sniping level is for it to be big and wide open but have a lot of small cover to hide in. You need to force the player to cross open stretches but be able to duck behind cover. Stealth is very important. Perhaps have rotating flags that each player has to get within a timelimit to force them to move.
Put spawn points where they will pop in looking at the back of someone hiding in cover (not in the open). This will also help to keep people moving and on their toes. Helps to ratchet up that tension.
The smoke trails in Halo are awesome. They actual disperse along their length from the direction that the bullet came from. Really helps you to figure out where you are being shot at from and forces the sniper to move from his hiding spot if he misses.
My favorite 3 sniper rifles (in order of preference):
Halo sniper rifle
AWP from Counter Strike
Unreal Tournament (first) sniper rifle
A big part of the feel of the sniper rifle is the sound...it has to feel and sound like it is packing a real punch. Don't make them lead the player. That never feels right even if it is more "reallistic".
I would follow standard sniper rifle kills rules: one shot to the head kills, two to the body
The higher the sniper spot the better it is but the more exposed it should be. Have plenty of multi-tiered towers with a lot of windows (the higher up, the bigger the windows).
Need to have a light-weight weapon for close range like a pistol. It really sucks trying to snipe someone who is 5 feet away and trying to do the same.
Realism is overrated. Don't make the players soldiers, make them a competitor in a sport. Go for a slightly futuristic feel...maybe like paintball or lasertag gone serious. Something that will fit the terrain and buildings of TGE. Or for a more city level maybe do a Batman's Gotham + gangster feel.
No jetpacks! I know you are tempted since you speak of Tribes 2 =P It is hard to snipe when you are in the air and it is hard to snipe someone who is in the air. It will detract from the gameplay. Trust me on this.
Can you tell I've thought about this a bit ;) You could knock together a prototype of this in no time and start finding people to help. This could easily be a very successful project =)
12/30/2003 (11:12 am)
The best sniping game I've ever played is the sniper rifles only mode in Halo. Me and my buddies have literally spent countless hours playing just that.The key to a good sniping level is for it to be big and wide open but have a lot of small cover to hide in. You need to force the player to cross open stretches but be able to duck behind cover. Stealth is very important. Perhaps have rotating flags that each player has to get within a timelimit to force them to move.
Put spawn points where they will pop in looking at the back of someone hiding in cover (not in the open). This will also help to keep people moving and on their toes. Helps to ratchet up that tension.
The smoke trails in Halo are awesome. They actual disperse along their length from the direction that the bullet came from. Really helps you to figure out where you are being shot at from and forces the sniper to move from his hiding spot if he misses.
My favorite 3 sniper rifles (in order of preference):
Halo sniper rifle
AWP from Counter Strike
Unreal Tournament (first) sniper rifle
A big part of the feel of the sniper rifle is the sound...it has to feel and sound like it is packing a real punch. Don't make them lead the player. That never feels right even if it is more "reallistic".
I would follow standard sniper rifle kills rules: one shot to the head kills, two to the body
The higher the sniper spot the better it is but the more exposed it should be. Have plenty of multi-tiered towers with a lot of windows (the higher up, the bigger the windows).
Need to have a light-weight weapon for close range like a pistol. It really sucks trying to snipe someone who is 5 feet away and trying to do the same.
Realism is overrated. Don't make the players soldiers, make them a competitor in a sport. Go for a slightly futuristic feel...maybe like paintball or lasertag gone serious. Something that will fit the terrain and buildings of TGE. Or for a more city level maybe do a Batman's Gotham + gangster feel.
No jetpacks! I know you are tempted since you speak of Tribes 2 =P It is hard to snipe when you are in the air and it is hard to snipe someone who is in the air. It will detract from the gameplay. Trust me on this.
Can you tell I've thought about this a bit ;) You could knock together a prototype of this in no time and start finding people to help. This could easily be a very successful project =)
#3
Allow movement while zoomed. I hate sniping games/rifles that force you to be still or to move slowly. Again, it is less realistic but it is more fun if they can run while zoomed. The zoom itself will provide plenty of hinderance. You don't need to punish them anymore.
One thing I both love and hate about Halo is that if you get shot you unzoom. It is a pretty good play mechanic but it is the most complained about thing.
Having to remain motionless to steady the shot is usually more annoying than enhancing unless you are going for realism. It will slow the game down and make the players want to move less. Again, the player's motion and the resulting view will work against him plenty as it is. Allow him to be able to rely on his own aiming skills unhindered.
12/30/2003 (11:24 am)
Couple more things:Allow movement while zoomed. I hate sniping games/rifles that force you to be still or to move slowly. Again, it is less realistic but it is more fun if they can run while zoomed. The zoom itself will provide plenty of hinderance. You don't need to punish them anymore.
One thing I both love and hate about Halo is that if you get shot you unzoom. It is a pretty good play mechanic but it is the most complained about thing.
Having to remain motionless to steady the shot is usually more annoying than enhancing unless you are going for realism. It will slow the game down and make the players want to move less. Again, the player's motion and the resulting view will work against him plenty as it is. Allow him to be able to rely on his own aiming skills unhindered.
#4
12/30/2003 (12:29 pm)
The best realistic sniping action in any game is in Operation Flashpoint! Get the game of the year edition it is availble in bargin bins for $14.95 - $19.95 US. Best Single Player FPS game ever made. And the online play is the only game that really REQUIRES team play. The RTS game mode is awesome! Like playing a RTS in FPS with teams! Intense!
#5
@Matthew: heh, thanks for the thought! Too bad I haven't played any of the games you've mentioned... As for the towers, I like that, since it hopefully wouldn't take too much time designing...and as an added bonus to a more futuristic feel, I could have teleport pads to access the towers, where the enemies will just teleport up and WHAM! hit em with the pistol ^_^
What do you mean by movement while zoomed?
@Jarrod: Price seems tempting - I've heard of games which combines RTS and FPS modes...maybe I'll try it...
Thanks guys for the help!
12/30/2003 (1:03 pm)
@Sebastian: so you're suggesting that the rifle actually move with the heartbeat, thus affecting aim? I like that...it might be a lil hard to implement (maybe have the player move up and down a lil? That's sorta...odd though...or not...*evil grin), but hell, it'll be worth it - PLUS, if I remember correctly, snipers need to take a medicine or something to prevent that.@Matthew: heh, thanks for the thought! Too bad I haven't played any of the games you've mentioned... As for the towers, I like that, since it hopefully wouldn't take too much time designing...and as an added bonus to a more futuristic feel, I could have teleport pads to access the towers, where the enemies will just teleport up and WHAM! hit em with the pistol ^_^
What do you mean by movement while zoomed?
@Jarrod: Price seems tempting - I've heard of games which combines RTS and FPS modes...maybe I'll try it...
Thanks guys for the help!
#6
Marksmen of anykind take a breath, release half and fire.
Regardless if it is a hand gun or rifle the technique is valid.
There are lots of e-books and web sites about Marksmenship on the web. Google for marksman or marksmanship.
12/30/2003 (2:11 pm)
Josiah if you have access to the History Channel they run specials on the history of the military sniper and sniper school. Actually I think one of the shows is called "Sniper School".Marksmen of anykind take a breath, release half and fire.
Regardless if it is a hand gun or rifle the technique is valid.
There are lots of e-books and web sites about Marksmenship on the web. Google for marksman or marksmanship.
#7
12/30/2003 (3:05 pm)
@Jarrod: Wow, that's a pretty realistic concept to put in....any ideas on how to implement that part? Oh yeah, I have History Channel - when does it usually air (live in EST timezone)? Thanks! 
#8
Basically, your body starts to tremble and fight your command for your lungs not to work, making your aim worthless and causing you to start your breath-relax-aim-squeeze-shoot-follow-through cycle all over. Also, the effect of both breathing and heart-beat is something like a thin figure eight than straight up and down.
Also, you want to research the positions that snipers take, since the stability of the position is important and can play a very important role in your game. Standard positions are prone(laying down), sitting, kneeling, and standing, and each of those is less stable than the previous one. Add to that, there's certain "combat positions" such as sitting on a slanted rooftop(which I can't really describe, but it's sort of an open-sitting style).
There's also "barricade shooting" and "pieing" around corners, which are tactics that are used to tactically get from one point to another without getting shot too easily. "Combat gliding", which is a method of walking that takes some of the bounce out of the rifle aim so that you can fire on the move.
I suggest that you find a rifle range and experience a rifle or two. Pistol shooting is very different, so wouldn't give you the same feel. Have someone at the range coach you on aiming and breathing, and you'll get the idea.
12/30/2003 (4:43 pm)
@Josiah: Adding to Jarrod's comment about breathing control, there's a small side-effect that it causes if the marksman holds their breath too long called the "Death Reflex" by some.Basically, your body starts to tremble and fight your command for your lungs not to work, making your aim worthless and causing you to start your breath-relax-aim-squeeze-shoot-follow-through cycle all over. Also, the effect of both breathing and heart-beat is something like a thin figure eight than straight up and down.
Also, you want to research the positions that snipers take, since the stability of the position is important and can play a very important role in your game. Standard positions are prone(laying down), sitting, kneeling, and standing, and each of those is less stable than the previous one. Add to that, there's certain "combat positions" such as sitting on a slanted rooftop(which I can't really describe, but it's sort of an open-sitting style).
There's also "barricade shooting" and "pieing" around corners, which are tactics that are used to tactically get from one point to another without getting shot too easily. "Combat gliding", which is a method of walking that takes some of the bounce out of the rifle aim so that you can fire on the move.
I suggest that you find a rifle range and experience a rifle or two. Pistol shooting is very different, so wouldn't give you the same feel. Have someone at the range coach you on aiming and breathing, and you'll get the idea.
#9
Implement some sort of breathing cycle with a timer or something. Also have some key that when held down will stop the timer (a "hold breath" key). You could also keep track of if the player is inhaling or exhaling... like the time goes from 0-100 on inhale, and 100-0 on exhale.
Now, depending on when the player holds his breath could determine how accurate his shot will be. If he holds it when the timer is a 50 on the exhale, accuracy is best. Then kind of adjust it from there.
To go even further... if the player holds his breath for too long, he will cough and the scope will shake. The cough could be a 3rd person sound so it could give away the players position.
This may be too realistic for some people..heh. I would love to see a game be this detailed. Sniping in most games is just too easy.
12/30/2003 (5:13 pm)
Simple really. Implement some sort of breathing cycle with a timer or something. Also have some key that when held down will stop the timer (a "hold breath" key). You could also keep track of if the player is inhaling or exhaling... like the time goes from 0-100 on inhale, and 100-0 on exhale.
Now, depending on when the player holds his breath could determine how accurate his shot will be. If he holds it when the timer is a 50 on the exhale, accuracy is best. Then kind of adjust it from there.
To go even further... if the player holds his breath for too long, he will cough and the scope will shake. The cough could be a 3rd person sound so it could give away the players position.
This may be too realistic for some people..heh. I would love to see a game be this detailed. Sniping in most games is just too easy.
#10
@Jason: Oooooh I see...almost like those power meters in bowling games...neat! Thanks!
12/31/2003 (7:36 am)
@Ted: Wow, you seem to know a lot - THANKS! btw, I probably can't go to a shooting range for another 4 years or so since I'm only 14 >.< wait, what's the age requirement anyways? *searches web*@Jason: Oooooh I see...almost like those power meters in bowling games...neat! Thanks!
#11
12/31/2003 (8:14 am)
America's Army has realistic breathing when you are in the "iron sights" view. You can hear the breathing and it when it pauses for a second on the exhale. your sight steadies completely. And all the ranges around me ( GA ) require someone of age to acompany anyone under 18, so get someone to take you. Lane rental is like $10 an hour, Rifle rental is a like $5 - $10 and ammo is well ammo. Depends on what you rent. A .22L will be super cheap ammo wise.
#12
Another game that has a good simulation of marksman breath control is Splinter Cell. The scope is all jiggly until you hit the spacebar to halt your breathing, but if you don't shoot within a certain length of time, that "death reflex" kicks in and makes the jiggling even worse, then you have to let go and wait until your breath comes back.
And yes, too much realism is bad, because in real life the stalking of a sniper can take them 3 yards in a single *day*, which is kinda boring for a game-though they can be ghosts when they move at any speed. I remember trying out AN-PVS-7 night vision goggles in the field and about 25 of us were trying to spot one of the sergeants who used to be a sniper. At the end, we all guessed the wrong clumps of grass, and he stood up about 15 feet away from us. That said, be sure to make camoflauge a important component of the game too ;)
12/31/2003 (9:12 am)
@Josiah: Hopefully you find a deal similar to what Jarrod's talking about. There's no substitute for experience, so I'd look at trying to find one near you. Another game that has a good simulation of marksman breath control is Splinter Cell. The scope is all jiggly until you hit the spacebar to halt your breathing, but if you don't shoot within a certain length of time, that "death reflex" kicks in and makes the jiggling even worse, then you have to let go and wait until your breath comes back.
And yes, too much realism is bad, because in real life the stalking of a sniper can take them 3 yards in a single *day*, which is kinda boring for a game-though they can be ghosts when they move at any speed. I remember trying out AN-PVS-7 night vision goggles in the field and about 25 of us were trying to spot one of the sergeants who used to be a sniper. At the end, we all guessed the wrong clumps of grass, and he stood up about 15 feet away from us. That said, be sure to make camoflauge a important component of the game too ;)
#13
The usual knee-jerk reactionary solutions to everyone bitching about how cheap the scoped weapons are:
1. Nerf the weapon so it hardly does any damage and takes a ridiculous number of shots to kill with.
2. Make it practically impossible to hit anything with it because of the tremendous about of unpredictiable sway/wobble/whatever you want to call it. Where there is more chance than skill involved.
3. Do both of the above!
The short story is in real life ALL weapons, pistols to rifles accuracy is affected by movement.
That is why I like Operation Flashpoint so much, it has a really good balance between accuracy and movement. It does lean just a little more to the arcade than simulation but that is a general conession to gameplay because the hardcore simulation nuts are a very small percentage of the population.
12/31/2003 (11:58 am)
The problem with lots of games that involved scoped weapons gameplay is that they are way to easy to be effective with ( cheap and require no skill ).The usual knee-jerk reactionary solutions to everyone bitching about how cheap the scoped weapons are:
1. Nerf the weapon so it hardly does any damage and takes a ridiculous number of shots to kill with.
2. Make it practically impossible to hit anything with it because of the tremendous about of unpredictiable sway/wobble/whatever you want to call it. Where there is more chance than skill involved.
3. Do both of the above!
The short story is in real life ALL weapons, pistols to rifles accuracy is affected by movement.
That is why I like Operation Flashpoint so much, it has a really good balance between accuracy and movement. It does lean just a little more to the arcade than simulation but that is a general conession to gameplay because the hardcore simulation nuts are a very small percentage of the population.
#14
Now comes the hard part: how to implement all this via the scripting >.<
Any ideas on what functions to use for what?
01/02/2004 (1:30 pm)
Thanks guys! All of your suggestions were great and thoughtful!Now comes the hard part: how to implement all this via the scripting >.<
Any ideas on what functions to use for what?
#15
01/04/2004 (10:10 pm)
Personally, i'd make the game not just sniper, but more of assassin in general. so sometimes you'd sift through a crowd to find the person to knife, sometimes you snipe, etz etz 
#16
I would also like a realistic sniper game, I was making a mod for one in Quake 3 at one stage but Quake 3 was quite limited with size etc. Which was to be an Australian Sniper game.
Are you going to have spotters?
EDIT: Also in the Delta Force Series they have Zoning in which is setting your rifle to the correct distance as there is a drop off which makes it more realistic, also with such long ranges wind etc matters also. Which is shown in Delta Force not sure if it affected it.
Delta Force 2 and Land Warrior show these features the most, as Black Hawk Down has an auto! :-|.
01/05/2004 (1:38 am)
Josiah Wang Remmington top-shot had the breathing etc also.I would also like a realistic sniper game, I was making a mod for one in Quake 3 at one stage but Quake 3 was quite limited with size etc. Which was to be an Australian Sniper game.
Are you going to have spotters?
EDIT: Also in the Delta Force Series they have Zoning in which is setting your rifle to the correct distance as there is a drop off which makes it more realistic, also with such long ranges wind etc matters also. Which is shown in Delta Force not sure if it affected it.
Delta Force 2 and Land Warrior show these features the most, as Black Hawk Down has an auto! :-|.
Torque 3D Owner Sebastien Bourgon
Dont allow movement at all. Think Silent Scope. You only move in pre-scripted directions, you can only look around though.
You dont usually run around with sniper rifles anyways. Though maybe adding a bit of peekaboo movement for snipping around corners, or over a concrete lip on the roof, etc.